you really do hate women. did she beat you with a shoe?
I don't hate women, quite the contrary I love women. I'm just sticking to my beliefs. I've seen what I've seen and I know what I know. That's the basis for my statements. I hold no animosity towards women in general. The feminist movement, yea, I have some beefs with that.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
your not seeing the bigger picture. and besides that, you only seemed to be concerned that women are given jobs in your company. hippiemom was right, you really hate women.
Take a hike.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Now, I don't know if my employer has this affirmative action thing. But I do know I was hired by a woman, my previous boss was a woman, the legal department is all women and the data group is mostly all women. My current boss is Philipino, the HR manager is Chinese (female), the Secuity guard is Portuguese, there are a handful of Asian-Canadian and African-Canadian people that work here. There are some really fruity guys here in high positions, like Dept. Managers. There was one guy that was transgender, but he is gone now. I'm not sure why he was fired though.
All in all, there are a lot of so-called minorities above me in this company.
Considering the demographics here I am actually a minority for both being non-hispanic white and for being a man.
Let me see if I can break this down.
You don't know whether your employer's hiring policies is based on an affirmative action policy or not. That seems pretty important. I mean, maybe they hired all these women and minorities that you work with because they were the best candidate for the job -- not because they were "forced to" by any law or policy. So I'm not sure whether your workplace even counts as an example of affirmative action. I mean, maybe all these folks got chosen because of their credentials . . .
The only place I've worked that actually discriminated against people was a backwards ass hick company and no amount of laws or affirmative action is going to change them.
Yeah, that's what Southerners said about Jim Crow laws in the US. But oddly enough, they're all gone now.
Regardless of laws, the whole concept is bad. It's like woman's rights groups. It's a totally situational and bias organization. Just like men's rights groups or anything like that. Anything that seperates people into groups based on ethnicity, gender, age, etc.. are prejudice. That is the deffinition of prejudice.
I don't really know what you mean by "situational and bias organization." But you worked for "a backwards ass hick company." You basically want to leave them alone to their own devices -- hopefully to die out on their own. I guess I think that minorities and women need to get together to fight off folks like the backward ass hicks.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
this is a good conversation; we need to recognize it as such and not try to solve the problem here. a lot of way smarter people have tried to debate this for many years. there is no right answer. some points:
- just because whites arent a majority, doesnt make them a minority. They usually become a plurality. meaning, they outnumber other groups, but no longer represent over 50%
- AA programs are not mandatory, only certain employers have to enforece these, either by court order (for discriminating and getting caught), govt contract or self-imposed.
- This is a SOCIAL program; how can you argue with trying to make up for taking an entire class of people from their native lands, enslaving them and then denying them equal rights in the new land.
food for thought?
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
You don't know whether your employer's hiring policies is based on an affirmative action policy or not. That seems pretty important. I mean, maybe they hired all these women and minorities that you work with because they were the best candidate for the job -- not because they were "forced to" by any law or policy. So I'm not sure whether your workplace even counts as an example of affirmative action. I mean, maybe all these folks got chosen because of their credentials . . .
Yea, I think they were hired because they have the necissary skills, and also because they are what applied. You won't get a whole heck of a lot of WMAs applying for any jobs in this city.
I don't really know what you mean by "situational and bias organization." But you worked for "a backwards ass hick company." You basically want to leave them alone to their own devices -- hopefully to die out on their own. I guess I think that minorities and women need to get together to fight off folks like the backward ass hicks.
Situational means it depends on your situation. If you are an employer and the best person for the job happens to be a white male, then you would want to hire that person, but if you are a black female applicant, you would want to be hired and possibly cry racism or sexism if you don't get it.
Pretty well everyone in these organizations is in the same situation. How many men are involved in women's rights movements? How many employers are out there asking for mandates on who they hire?
That's also what makes them bias.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
- This is a SOCIAL program; how can you argue with trying to make up for taking an entire class of people from their native lands, enslaving them and then denying them equal rights in the new land.
Don't even try. It's impossible. All you can do is give them status, which is prejudice.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, I think they were hired because they have the necissary skills, and also because they are what applied. You won't get a whole heck of a lot of WMAs applying for any jobs in this city.
Okay, so your workplace is NOT an example of affirmative action. Right?
Situational means it depends on your situation. If you are an employer and the best person for the job happens to be a white male, then you would want to hire that person . . .
Which is what happened at your workplace, right? I mean, they hired you and all your colleagues, in their multi-racial glory, because you were the best qualified among all the applicants.
. . . but if you are a black female applicant, you would want to be hired and possibly cry racism or sexism if you don't get it.
Maybe. Of course, filing complaints about discrimination is so traumatic that many studies have shown that people would rather lump it than pursue them. Most experts on this agree that there are far fewer complaints of discrimination than discriminatory acts.
Which you wouldn't guess from all the blathering in this country about the "litigation crisis" -- but that's another thread.
Pretty well everyone in these organizations is in the same situation. How many men are involved in women's rights movements? How many employers are out there asking for mandates on who they hire?
That's also what makes them bias.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean -- from your example, employers and black women seem like their in very different situations. Anyway, I know a lot of men involved in women's movements opposing violence. And I guess most employers don't want anyone telling them who to hire.
But I think you might be making an argument that I was making. One of the great things about affirmative action is that -- in the few places where it's required -- it forces us to meet and talk to people who aren't like us. And that's good for us.
Here's an example -- the US military. An incredibly success story for affirmative action. Harry Truman ordered the military integrated in the 1950's. If the military is good at anything, it's really good at taking orders. So they integrated the forces, and they implemented affirmative action, and it has been an amazing success. The military is the best integrated employer in the US. (Credit where credit is due.)
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
Maybe you mean Affirmative Action as an employer's willingness to hire anyone that applies and meets the job qualifications. That's a personal choice though, it's not a mandate or a law.
I don't see how having an affirmative action group even applies to that kind of thing. It's the segregation I have a problem with.
If an employer says "I am going to hire 50% women and 50% minority." then assuming the 50% women are also minorities then 50% of the workforce might be white men. However, if it's not possible to hire 50% female minorities, or the are just not that strict about going over their limits, then you end up with maybe 20% - 40% of white males. So the majority population becomes the minority workforce.
At any rate, that kind of thing is seperating people based on gender and race. It's prejudice. The whole concept makes it look like white men are prejudice and need to be told how to run their business. I am personally kind of sick of being catagorized with racist or sexist people.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Maybe you mean Affirmative Action as an employer's willingness to hire anyone that applies and meets the job qualifications. That's a personal choice though, it's not a mandate or a law.
I don't see how having an affirmative action group even applies to that kind of thing. It's the segregation I have a problem with.
If an employer says "I am going to hire 50% women and 50% minority." then assuming the 50% women are also minorities then 50% of the workforce might be white men. However, if it's not possible to hire 50% female minorities, or the are just not that strict about going over their limits, then you end up with maybe 20% - 40% of white males. So the majority population becomes the minority workforce.
Didn't we establish that this never happens? We don't have quotas. I thought Canada didn't have quotas. Who has quotas?
Now, you're in the minority in your workplace, but you don't have any idea how it got that way. It might be affirmative action, or it may just be your employer choosing to hire a lot of women and minorities who were the best qualified in the pool of applicants.
At any rate, that kind of thing is seperating people based on gender and race. It's prejudice. The whole concept makes it look like white men are prejudice and need to be told how to run their business. I am personally kind of sick of being catagorized with racist or sexist people.
But the whole idea of affirmative action is forcing people from different races to interact with each other. It's the very opposite of segregation.
And it's true -- it's telling employers how to run their businesses, but at least here in the US, it's only when there's been a history of racial discrimination in the business or industry. Now, that happens to be practically every business and administration. The days when African-Americans (and women) were excluded from jobs just because of these characteristics is not that long ago.
And finally, I'm sorry that you feel that you are categorized as racist or sexist just because you're a white man. White men feel very put upon, I know. But from where I sit, they control government, business, education. And the people in power -- the elites -- they're the ones telling white men that their problem is reverse discrimination and they should be mad at women and blacks. When in reality, maybe we should be mad at the people running government, business, and education.
Just a thought . . .
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.
It is indeed alive and well ... What some people (often white people suffering from a guilty conscience) fail to realize is that discrimination is something that can happen to nearly anyone. It is one of those universals of human existence ... Like poverty, or mental illness ... It is a bad thing, to be sure, but it is always going to happen to some extent, to somebody. I have never understood the argument that white people are somehow immune. Yes, there is a certain priveledge that goes along with being white (at least in North American and European societies). This does NOT mean that affirmative action should be tolerated without any sort of concern ... Like any potentially good concept, it has its perks, but we need to minimize the problems that can also also occur. I don't appreciate being told that I "don't understand" because of my race. That's ... um ... racist. Its a mindless generalization. I also disliked that comment about "white people saying shocking things when left to their own devices". Well, I'm white, and allow me to shock with the following comment: People need to watch out with the foolish remarks on here. Anyone, of any creed, can say shocking and insensitive things. Heck, I will freely admit to doing so, because I am a fallible human being who sometimes says dumb shit. Someone who hates this particular post of mine could even make a smart-ass joke to that effect. My point is, ignorant prejudical attitudes are NOT unique to my race. Thank you, and good night.
Edit: Ahnimus, many of these comments are not directed at you. Just to clarify. I just used your last post as a starting point.
Edit: Ahnimus, many of these comments are not directed at you. Just to clarify. I just used your last post as a starting point.
I gathered as much. Good post reborn.
My beef is with groups that are bias. Groups that target other so-called groups and ignore other inequalities. Our socieities seem to have slipped into a reverse generalization. I suppose it's earned by white men, but it doesn't make it right either.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Surely this is aimed at fixing the wrong problem...
The issue is giving equal opportunity to all to prove themselves worthy of the job and then choosing on merit regardless of colour, creed or sex. The effort should be spent making sure people have the opportunities not shoe-horning them into a job because of quota's, doesn't make sense, de-skills, de-values, de-motivates...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
i really do not like affirmative action one little bit. i simply believe you hire the best person for the job, no matter their gender, sexual orientation or race. its something from the "progressive" side of politics that is anything but.
The wind is blowing cold
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
Reverse Discrimination is something I've been aware of most of my life. I didn't learn it from anyone, I realized it all on my own. Just recently I've found that others are concerned about it too.
But from what you've said, you haven't been a victim of reverse discrimination.
Affirmative action is either a law or an employment policy or admissions policy that REQUIRES an employer to consider race or sex when making decisions.
You said that your employer doesn't have such a policy. And from what I can tell about Canadian affirmative action law, it doesn't impose any quotas on hiring. All it basically does is require employers to make sure minority applicants know about the job and, if there's a history of discrimination, use race as a factor when all else is equal.
So laws and policies have not been responsible for your workplace. Your employer is responsible for your workplace.
What you seem to object to is that women and minorities have gotten the skills and qualifications to compete with white men in the labor market. But everyone seems to agree that the free market is good.
Just because you're in the minority doesn't mean that that happened because of affirmative action. And really, look at your political leaders, your business leaders, the presidents of your universities, and take solace in the fact that they're all white guys.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
It is indeed alive and well ... What some people (often white people suffering from a guilty conscience) fail to realize is that discrimination is something that can happen to nearly anyone. It is one of those universals of human existence ... Like poverty, or mental illness ... It is a bad thing, to be sure, but it is always going to happen to some extent, to somebody. I have never understood the argument that white people are somehow immune.
Immune from what? Immune from being racist? Or immune from being targets of racism?
Of course, whites are targets of racism. Is that really a surprise? Would anyone disagree with that? Did anyone make this argument in this thread? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Let me tell you -- no one on this thread has ever said that whites aren't targeted by racism.
I don't appreciate being told that I "don't understand" because of my race. That's ... um ... racist. Its a mindless generalization.
I very much doubt anyone has ever said this to you. No one has ever said anything like this to me, and I've spent a lot of time talking to people from lots of different minority groups about their everyday experiences.
It is true that members of minorities in general and African-Americans in particular get tired of having to explain themselves to well-meaning white people all the time. But generally speaking, when they think they have an empathetic audience, they are pretty good about talking about how race has affected them in the classroom, in their workplaces, in the legal system, etc.
I also disliked that comment about "white people saying shocking things when left to their own devices". Well, I'm white, and allow me to shock with the following comment: People need to watch out with the foolish remarks on here.
Who the hell are you? Ari Fleischer? People need to watch out what they say? Who talks like this???
Oh, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings . . . apparently by telling you something you already knew about fallible white people saying shocking and insensitive things to each other about minorities.
(Really, people on these boards are so fucking sensitive.)
Anyone, of any creed, can say shocking and insensitive things. Heck, I will freely admit to doing so, because I am a fallible human being who sometimes says dumb shit. Someone who hates this particular post of mine could even make a smart-ass joke to that effect. My point is, ignorant prejudical attitudes are NOT unique to my race. Thank you, and good night.
Would it make you feel better if I said that everyone is racist? Great -- everyone is racist, and it's something that we all struggle with everyday. It's just some struggle with it more than others.
And what the hell any of this has to do with affirmative action is completely beyond me.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.
She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.
And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.
Affirmative action is a crock of shit.
And that is all I have to say about that.
Underneath this smile lies everything
all my hopes, anger, pride and shame...
I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.
She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.
And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.
Affirmative action is a crock of shit.
And that is all I have to say about that.
Yeah, and I went to grad school with a bunch of white guys who got into fancy-ass colleges not because they had good grades or good SAT scores but because their fathers and grandfathers gave a lot of money to the school. Then, they went to college -- and grad school -- and stayed drunk and stupid until they (barely) graduated and stepped into fancy-ass jobs that their fathers and grandfathers got for them.
That's not fair either, is it?
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
i really do not like affirmative action one little bit. i simply believe you hire the best person for the job, no matter their gender, sexual orientation or race. .
That is exactly what affirmative action aims to assure. In order for a protected group (Black, Hispanic, etc.) to be able to establish a discrimination case, it has to meet a pretty strict set of criteria. First of all they have to qualified for the job they were denied. If they are not qualified, there is no case. Period. Also, if the position they were denied is awarded to another a member of another protected group, there can be no case. In other words, in order for, lets say, a Black individual to be able to establish a discrimination case, the position they were denied has to be awarded to a White guy of equal or lesser qualification. The most common misconception about Affirmative action is that white guys lose jobs to Black guys who are lesser qualified. That simply isn't how it works. Personally i think White guys try to balm their damaged ego with a bunch of "reverse discrimination" crap because they can't handle the fact that a Black guy got the job they wanted.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.
She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.
And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.
Affirmative action is a crock of shit.
And that is all I have to say about that.
Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where instead of turning black women and white men against each other, all employees, regardless of race or gender or ethnicity or religion, could take time off from work to take care of their sick sons? Sure, our bosses might have to take a slightly smaller Christmas bonus or the shareholders would see slightly smaller dividends. But all of us who work for a living could be secure in our jobs and raise healthy families and stop hating each other.
Just a thought . . .
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.
Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.
In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.
"Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
Immune from what? Immune from being racist? Or immune from being targets of racism?
Of course, whites are targets of racism. Is that really a surprise? Would anyone disagree with that? Did anyone make this argument in this thread? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Let me tell you -- no one on this thread has ever said that whites aren't targeted by racism.
I very much doubt anyone has ever said this to you. No one has ever said anything like this to me, and I've spent a lot of time talking to people from lots of different minority groups about their everyday experiences.
It is true that members of minorities in general and African-Americans in particular get tired of having to explain themselves to well-meaning white people all the time. But generally speaking, when they think they have an empathetic audience, they are pretty good about talking about how race has affected them in the classroom, in their workplaces, in the legal system, etc.
Who the hell are you? Ari Fleischer? People need to watch out what they say? Who talks like this???
Oh, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings . . . apparently by telling you something you already knew about fallible white people saying shocking and insensitive things to each other about minorities.
(Really, people on these boards are so fucking sensitive.)
Would it make you feel better if I said that everyone is racist? Great -- everyone is racist, and it's something that we all struggle with everyday. It's just some struggle with it more than others.
And what the hell any of this has to do with affirmative action is completely beyond me.
Oh, for fuck sakes. Show a little emotion about a topic on here, and suddenly you're Ari ... Put me on your ignore list if I make you that offended.
Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.
Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.
In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.
Good post, but be careful. Hope&Anger is probably going to freak out now.
Oh, for fuck sakes. Show a little emotion about a topic on here, and suddenly you're Ari ... Put me on your ignore list if I make you that offended.
You amuse me. You get to show emotion, but then your feelings get hurt when others do.
Honestly, people on this board dish it out, but then put their tails between their legs when asked to take it.
Toughen up.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
Prior to being bought out by another company, I worked at a company that had roughly 10 layoffs of varying sizes over a 3 year period. All 6 minorities in my group (4 blacks and 2 women) of 20 survived all cuts. 2 of the black dudes were REGULARLY caught sleeping at work and, honestly, offered subpar abilities to the team. Yet, talented white dudes were walked out the door consistently. I was pretty tight with the 3 of the 4 black dudes and they were very open with their knowledge that they would not be laid off due to the company's fear of a discrimination suit. They got shitty reviews, verbal reprimands for sleeping, but miraculously hung onto their jobs. It was absolutely ridiculous.
Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.
In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.
I promise not to freak out. (But prepare reborncareerist, I may disagree with you and this poster. But I won't freak out.)
I believe this happens -- I've seen this with my own eyes. Hell, I've even participated in it. But I'll just say a couple of things.
First, if an employee -- regardless of race -- is actually hurting the bottom line, most employers will fire them. Yeah, there's paperwork involved, but if an employee sucks that badly, no employer is going to keep them around.
Second, employers may be giving preference to members of minority groups, but they often have reasons to do that other than the law or some legal requirement. It may have something to do with the pool of applicants, or developing a reputation in a particular community, or their client bases. All I'm saying is that corporations now claim to love diversity. They don't pursue those policies because they HAVE to; they do it because they WANT to. Now, people who hate affirmative action may not like that -- but they should take it up with their bosses.
Finally, these threads are always littered with stories about the black people who goof off or take too many sick days. How about some alternative stories.
I posted earlier about rich white guys who get into better colleges than they deserve because their daddies paid to get them in. (Anyone been to school with these assholes? I have. They're drunk and stupid and don't deserve the privileges their money buys them.)
How about when "the boys" at work take the afternoon off and go play golf and talk about work on the golf course, but forget to tell all the women on the team what they discussed?
How about having to sit in your (white male) boss's office while he interrupts your presentation to tell you that your skirt is turning him on so badly he can't think straight?
How about white guys getting promoted because they don't have to take care of the kids or cook dinner or pick up dry cleaning or stay home for the plumber?
We all have our tales of woe, but we don't make public policy based on these anecdotes.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
You amuse me. You get to show emotion, but then your feelings get hurt when others do.
Honestly, people on this board dish it out, but then put their tails between their legs when asked to take it.
Toughen up.
My tail is not between my legs. I just don't wish to violate the posting guidelines by having a huge tantrum and saying something that I will probably regret (even if said something may be true).
And who ever said my feelings were hurt? Some of your posts are just as reactionary as mine are ... Glad I could amuse you, though. Since you aren't willing to listen to other people's arguments, you may as well get something from this thread.
I promise not to freak out. (But prepare reborncareerist, I may disagree with you and this poster. But I won't freak out.)
I believe this happens -- I've seen this with my own eyes. Hell, I've even participated in it. But I'll just say a couple of things.
First, if an employee -- regardless of race -- is actually hurting the bottom line, most employers will fire them. Yeah, there's paperwork involved, but if an employee sucks that badly, no employer is going to keep them around.
Second, employers may be giving preference to members of minority groups, but they often have reasons to do that other than the law or some legal requirement. It may have something to do with the pool of applicants, or developing a reputation in a particular community, or their client bases. All I'm saying is that corporations now claim to love diversity. They don't pursue those policies because they HAVE to; they do it because they WANT to. Now, people who hate affirmative action may not like that -- but they should take it up with their bosses.
Finally, these threads are always littered with stories about the black people who goof off or take too many sick days. How about some alternative stories.
I posted earlier about rich white guys who get into better colleges than they deserve because their daddies paid to get them in. (Anyone been to school with these assholes? I have. They're drunk and stupid and don't deserve the privileges their money buys them.)
How about when "the boys" at work take the afternoon off and go play golf and talk about work on the golf course, but forget to tell all the women on the team what they discussed?
How about having to sit in your (white male) boss's office while he interrupts your presentation to tell you that your skirt is turning him on so badly he can't think straight?
How about white guys getting promoted because they don't have to take care of the kids or cook dinner or pick up dry cleaning or stay home for the plumber?
We all have our tales of woe, but we don't make public policy based on these anecdotes.
Along with the talented white dudes who were dismissed were several white "bad apples". The problem is that if even 1 white guy who consistently outperforms a minority finds himself dismissed, race has just reared its ugly head. I believe in corporate America it has much less to do with image than it does the bottom line. Although a poor performing minority may hurt the company's bottom line a bit, throwing off man-hours etc., it won't hurt near as much as the financial harm caused by a discrimination lawsuit. Which, of course, isn't exactly a good thing for corporate image either.
As far as your examples women in the workplace go, I don't know what to tell you. My wife will most often stay home with the kids if they're sick being she makes less money in her profession. If she loses her job we'll be able to survive. If I lose my job we'd be in a world of hurt. She prides herself on being a good mother, full of maternal instincts. She doesn't think that "the man" is trying to hold her down when she is tasked with staying home to handle business on a work day.
Any comment about your skirt during a presentation should be taken as a compliment. Perhaps not appropriate timing, but a compliment nonetheless. If you look good, don't think for a second that that plays no role in your advancement in the company. I've seen it firsthand....but that's a whole other debate.
"Worse than traitors in arms are the men who pretend loyalty to the flag, feast and fatten on the misfortunes of the nation while patriotic blood is crimsoning the plains." -- Abraham Lincoln
My tail is not between my legs. I just don't wish to violate the posting guidelines by having a huge tantrum and saying something that I will probably regret (even if said something may be true).
And who ever said my feelings were hurt? Some of your posts are just as reactionary as mine are ... Glad I could amuse you, though. Since you aren't willing to listen to other people's arguments, you may as well get something from this thread.
You really ought to try reading my posts. I actually respond substantively to everyone's argument. In fact, I even conceded in my last post that Ebizzie made good points. I'm just offering a slightly different perspective. It's called a "discussion" or a "debate." That thing where people exchange views and try to come to some mutual understanding.
But I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
You really ought to try reading my posts. I actually respond substantively to everyone's argument. In fact, I even conceded in my last post that Ebizzie made good points. I'm just offering a slightly different perspective. It's called a "discussion" or a "debate." That thing where people exchange views and try to come to some mutual understanding.
But I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings.
Well, you might have tried offering me the same courtesy in the first place, and then just maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and derailing the thread.
"Thanks", though. I wasn't too sure about this "debate" thing.
Comments
I don't hate women, quite the contrary I love women. I'm just sticking to my beliefs. I've seen what I've seen and I know what I know. That's the basis for my statements. I hold no animosity towards women in general. The feminist movement, yea, I have some beefs with that.
Take a hike.
Yeah, I know. Shocking, huh?
Let me see if I can break this down.
You don't know whether your employer's hiring policies is based on an affirmative action policy or not. That seems pretty important. I mean, maybe they hired all these women and minorities that you work with because they were the best candidate for the job -- not because they were "forced to" by any law or policy. So I'm not sure whether your workplace even counts as an example of affirmative action. I mean, maybe all these folks got chosen because of their credentials . . .
Yeah, that's what Southerners said about Jim Crow laws in the US. But oddly enough, they're all gone now.
I don't really know what you mean by "situational and bias organization." But you worked for "a backwards ass hick company." You basically want to leave them alone to their own devices -- hopefully to die out on their own. I guess I think that minorities and women need to get together to fight off folks like the backward ass hicks.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
you cant handle my observations? im sorry.
- just because whites arent a majority, doesnt make them a minority. They usually become a plurality. meaning, they outnumber other groups, but no longer represent over 50%
- AA programs are not mandatory, only certain employers have to enforece these, either by court order (for discriminating and getting caught), govt contract or self-imposed.
- This is a SOCIAL program; how can you argue with trying to make up for taking an entire class of people from their native lands, enslaving them and then denying them equal rights in the new land.
food for thought?
Calvin to Hobbes
Yea, I think they were hired because they have the necissary skills, and also because they are what applied. You won't get a whole heck of a lot of WMAs applying for any jobs in this city.
Situational means it depends on your situation. If you are an employer and the best person for the job happens to be a white male, then you would want to hire that person, but if you are a black female applicant, you would want to be hired and possibly cry racism or sexism if you don't get it.
Pretty well everyone in these organizations is in the same situation. How many men are involved in women's rights movements? How many employers are out there asking for mandates on who they hire?
That's also what makes them bias.
Don't even try. It's impossible. All you can do is give them status, which is prejudice.
Okay, so your workplace is NOT an example of affirmative action. Right?
Which is what happened at your workplace, right? I mean, they hired you and all your colleagues, in their multi-racial glory, because you were the best qualified among all the applicants.
Maybe. Of course, filing complaints about discrimination is so traumatic that many studies have shown that people would rather lump it than pursue them. Most experts on this agree that there are far fewer complaints of discrimination than discriminatory acts.
Which you wouldn't guess from all the blathering in this country about the "litigation crisis" -- but that's another thread.
Again, I'm not sure what you mean -- from your example, employers and black women seem like their in very different situations. Anyway, I know a lot of men involved in women's movements opposing violence. And I guess most employers don't want anyone telling them who to hire.
But I think you might be making an argument that I was making. One of the great things about affirmative action is that -- in the few places where it's required -- it forces us to meet and talk to people who aren't like us. And that's good for us.
Here's an example -- the US military. An incredibly success story for affirmative action. Harry Truman ordered the military integrated in the 1950's. If the military is good at anything, it's really good at taking orders. So they integrated the forces, and they implemented affirmative action, and it has been an amazing success. The military is the best integrated employer in the US. (Credit where credit is due.)
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
I don't see how having an affirmative action group even applies to that kind of thing. It's the segregation I have a problem with.
If an employer says "I am going to hire 50% women and 50% minority." then assuming the 50% women are also minorities then 50% of the workforce might be white men. However, if it's not possible to hire 50% female minorities, or the are just not that strict about going over their limits, then you end up with maybe 20% - 40% of white males. So the majority population becomes the minority workforce.
At any rate, that kind of thing is seperating people based on gender and race. It's prejudice. The whole concept makes it look like white men are prejudice and need to be told how to run their business. I am personally kind of sick of being catagorized with racist or sexist people.
Didn't we establish that this never happens? We don't have quotas. I thought Canada didn't have quotas. Who has quotas?
Now, you're in the minority in your workplace, but you don't have any idea how it got that way. It might be affirmative action, or it may just be your employer choosing to hire a lot of women and minorities who were the best qualified in the pool of applicants.
But the whole idea of affirmative action is forcing people from different races to interact with each other. It's the very opposite of segregation.
And it's true -- it's telling employers how to run their businesses, but at least here in the US, it's only when there's been a history of racial discrimination in the business or industry. Now, that happens to be practically every business and administration. The days when African-Americans (and women) were excluded from jobs just because of these characteristics is not that long ago.
And finally, I'm sorry that you feel that you are categorized as racist or sexist just because you're a white man. White men feel very put upon, I know. But from where I sit, they control government, business, education. And the people in power -- the elites -- they're the ones telling white men that their problem is reverse discrimination and they should be mad at women and blacks. When in reality, maybe we should be mad at the people running government, business, and education.
Just a thought . . .
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
It is indeed alive and well ... What some people (often white people suffering from a guilty conscience) fail to realize is that discrimination is something that can happen to nearly anyone. It is one of those universals of human existence ... Like poverty, or mental illness ... It is a bad thing, to be sure, but it is always going to happen to some extent, to somebody. I have never understood the argument that white people are somehow immune. Yes, there is a certain priveledge that goes along with being white (at least in North American and European societies). This does NOT mean that affirmative action should be tolerated without any sort of concern ... Like any potentially good concept, it has its perks, but we need to minimize the problems that can also also occur. I don't appreciate being told that I "don't understand" because of my race. That's ... um ... racist. Its a mindless generalization. I also disliked that comment about "white people saying shocking things when left to their own devices". Well, I'm white, and allow me to shock with the following comment: People need to watch out with the foolish remarks on here. Anyone, of any creed, can say shocking and insensitive things. Heck, I will freely admit to doing so, because I am a fallible human being who sometimes says dumb shit. Someone who hates this particular post of mine could even make a smart-ass joke to that effect. My point is, ignorant prejudical attitudes are NOT unique to my race. Thank you, and good night.
Edit: Ahnimus, many of these comments are not directed at you. Just to clarify. I just used your last post as a starting point.
I gathered as much. Good post reborn.
My beef is with groups that are bias. Groups that target other so-called groups and ignore other inequalities. Our socieities seem to have slipped into a reverse generalization. I suppose it's earned by white men, but it doesn't make it right either.
The issue is giving equal opportunity to all to prove themselves worthy of the job and then choosing on merit regardless of colour, creed or sex. The effort should be spent making sure people have the opportunities not shoe-horning them into a job because of quota's, doesn't make sense, de-skills, de-values, de-motivates...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Have we lost our way tonight?
Have we lost our hope to sorrow?
Feels like were all alone
Running further from what’s right
And there are no more heroes to follow
So what are we becoming?
Where did we go wrong?
But from what you've said, you haven't been a victim of reverse discrimination.
Affirmative action is either a law or an employment policy or admissions policy that REQUIRES an employer to consider race or sex when making decisions.
You said that your employer doesn't have such a policy. And from what I can tell about Canadian affirmative action law, it doesn't impose any quotas on hiring. All it basically does is require employers to make sure minority applicants know about the job and, if there's a history of discrimination, use race as a factor when all else is equal.
So laws and policies have not been responsible for your workplace. Your employer is responsible for your workplace.
What you seem to object to is that women and minorities have gotten the skills and qualifications to compete with white men in the labor market. But everyone seems to agree that the free market is good.
Just because you're in the minority doesn't mean that that happened because of affirmative action. And really, look at your political leaders, your business leaders, the presidents of your universities, and take solace in the fact that they're all white guys.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
Of course, whites are targets of racism. Is that really a surprise? Would anyone disagree with that? Did anyone make this argument in this thread? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know because you couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing. Let me tell you -- no one on this thread has ever said that whites aren't targeted by racism.
I very much doubt anyone has ever said this to you. No one has ever said anything like this to me, and I've spent a lot of time talking to people from lots of different minority groups about their everyday experiences.
It is true that members of minorities in general and African-Americans in particular get tired of having to explain themselves to well-meaning white people all the time. But generally speaking, when they think they have an empathetic audience, they are pretty good about talking about how race has affected them in the classroom, in their workplaces, in the legal system, etc.
Who the hell are you? Ari Fleischer? People need to watch out what they say? Who talks like this???
Oh, and I'm sorry I hurt your feelings . . . apparently by telling you something you already knew about fallible white people saying shocking and insensitive things to each other about minorities.
(Really, people on these boards are so fucking sensitive.)
Would it make you feel better if I said that everyone is racist? Great -- everyone is racist, and it's something that we all struggle with everyday. It's just some struggle with it more than others.
And what the hell any of this has to do with affirmative action is completely beyond me.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
I work with a woman (who is black). Since October 2nd, she has been at work a total of 4 days.
She calls out sick when she has no sick time left and blames it on her 18 year old son being sick.
And the sole reason she still has her job is because she is black. If I, a white person, would pull that shit, I would be fired as fast as you can imagine.
Affirmative action is a crock of shit.
And that is all I have to say about that.
all my hopes, anger, pride and shame...
Yeah, and I went to grad school with a bunch of white guys who got into fancy-ass colleges not because they had good grades or good SAT scores but because their fathers and grandfathers gave a lot of money to the school. Then, they went to college -- and grad school -- and stayed drunk and stupid until they (barely) graduated and stepped into fancy-ass jobs that their fathers and grandfathers got for them.
That's not fair either, is it?
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
That is exactly what affirmative action aims to assure. In order for a protected group (Black, Hispanic, etc.) to be able to establish a discrimination case, it has to meet a pretty strict set of criteria. First of all they have to qualified for the job they were denied. If they are not qualified, there is no case. Period. Also, if the position they were denied is awarded to another a member of another protected group, there can be no case. In other words, in order for, lets say, a Black individual to be able to establish a discrimination case, the position they were denied has to be awarded to a White guy of equal or lesser qualification. The most common misconception about Affirmative action is that white guys lose jobs to Black guys who are lesser qualified. That simply isn't how it works. Personally i think White guys try to balm their damaged ego with a bunch of "reverse discrimination" crap because they can't handle the fact that a Black guy got the job they wanted.
Wouldn't it be nice if we lived in a world where instead of turning black women and white men against each other, all employees, regardless of race or gender or ethnicity or religion, could take time off from work to take care of their sick sons? Sure, our bosses might have to take a slightly smaller Christmas bonus or the shareholders would see slightly smaller dividends. But all of us who work for a living could be secure in our jobs and raise healthy families and stop hating each other.
Just a thought . . .
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
Another guy I worked with used to hold a higher level management position with a mexican fast food chain. He didn't like the demands of the job and the toll it took on his family life, so he quit to come work at my company in a less prominent position. Although he obviously couldn't speak for ALL companies, he was adamant that hiring/firing practices in the mexican fast food chain was VERY racially based. He definitely gave preference to minorities when hiring/promoting to management. He also said that if he wanted to can someone, the first question out of HR's mouth was what race the individual was. If he told them it was a white guy, they said do what you feel is appropriate. If it was a minority he wanted to fire, they often denied him for a lack of documentation. It wasn't that he didn't have documentation in any of these cases, it's just that the stack of paperwork had to be tall to cover the company's ass.
In both instances, reverse discrimination is most definitely in effect.
Oh, for fuck sakes. Show a little emotion about a topic on here, and suddenly you're Ari ... Put me on your ignore list if I make you that offended.
Good post, but be careful. Hope&Anger is probably going to freak out now.
You amuse me. You get to show emotion, but then your feelings get hurt when others do.
Honestly, people on this board dish it out, but then put their tails between their legs when asked to take it.
Toughen up.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
I promise not to freak out. (But prepare reborncareerist, I may disagree with you and this poster. But I won't freak out.)
I believe this happens -- I've seen this with my own eyes. Hell, I've even participated in it. But I'll just say a couple of things.
First, if an employee -- regardless of race -- is actually hurting the bottom line, most employers will fire them. Yeah, there's paperwork involved, but if an employee sucks that badly, no employer is going to keep them around.
Second, employers may be giving preference to members of minority groups, but they often have reasons to do that other than the law or some legal requirement. It may have something to do with the pool of applicants, or developing a reputation in a particular community, or their client bases. All I'm saying is that corporations now claim to love diversity. They don't pursue those policies because they HAVE to; they do it because they WANT to. Now, people who hate affirmative action may not like that -- but they should take it up with their bosses.
Finally, these threads are always littered with stories about the black people who goof off or take too many sick days. How about some alternative stories.
I posted earlier about rich white guys who get into better colleges than they deserve because their daddies paid to get them in. (Anyone been to school with these assholes? I have. They're drunk and stupid and don't deserve the privileges their money buys them.)
How about when "the boys" at work take the afternoon off and go play golf and talk about work on the golf course, but forget to tell all the women on the team what they discussed?
How about having to sit in your (white male) boss's office while he interrupts your presentation to tell you that your skirt is turning him on so badly he can't think straight?
How about white guys getting promoted because they don't have to take care of the kids or cook dinner or pick up dry cleaning or stay home for the plumber?
We all have our tales of woe, but we don't make public policy based on these anecdotes.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
My tail is not between my legs. I just don't wish to violate the posting guidelines by having a huge tantrum and saying something that I will probably regret (even if said something may be true).
And who ever said my feelings were hurt? Some of your posts are just as reactionary as mine are ... Glad I could amuse you, though. Since you aren't willing to listen to other people's arguments, you may as well get something from this thread.
Along with the talented white dudes who were dismissed were several white "bad apples". The problem is that if even 1 white guy who consistently outperforms a minority finds himself dismissed, race has just reared its ugly head. I believe in corporate America it has much less to do with image than it does the bottom line. Although a poor performing minority may hurt the company's bottom line a bit, throwing off man-hours etc., it won't hurt near as much as the financial harm caused by a discrimination lawsuit. Which, of course, isn't exactly a good thing for corporate image either.
As far as your examples women in the workplace go, I don't know what to tell you. My wife will most often stay home with the kids if they're sick being she makes less money in her profession. If she loses her job we'll be able to survive. If I lose my job we'd be in a world of hurt. She prides herself on being a good mother, full of maternal instincts. She doesn't think that "the man" is trying to hold her down when she is tasked with staying home to handle business on a work day.
Any comment about your skirt during a presentation should be taken as a compliment. Perhaps not appropriate timing, but a compliment nonetheless. If you look good, don't think for a second that that plays no role in your advancement in the company. I've seen it firsthand....but that's a whole other debate.
You really ought to try reading my posts. I actually respond substantively to everyone's argument. In fact, I even conceded in my last post that Ebizzie made good points. I'm just offering a slightly different perspective. It's called a "discussion" or a "debate." That thing where people exchange views and try to come to some mutual understanding.
But I'm glad I didn't hurt your feelings.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
Well, you might have tried offering me the same courtesy in the first place, and then just maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion right now and derailing the thread.
"Thanks", though. I wasn't too sure about this "debate" thing.