Leprechauns

Ahnimus

chopitdown wrote:

It is through hard work that he was able to develop his innate talent. At some point, genetics play into athletic ability and genetics plays in to intelligence. I'm not saying that hard work can't make up for what natural ability fails to provide but at some point you need more than hard work. Hard work is great and will only accentuate good natural ability. Which goes back to development. There is some natural component to everything but there is also an interplay with environement etc... Oh, and Jordan isn't actually that bad at golf.

Jordan is horrible at baseball.

Anyway, practicing and becoming good at something does not equate to an innate talent. Some how I think you are just talking out yer ass on this one.

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

Jordan is horrible at baseball.

Anyway, practicing and becoming good at something does not equate to an innate talent. Some how I think you are just talking out yer ass on this one.

What you're saying is silly. Jordan practiced and became arguably the best basketball player in the world. He may have been just as good at baseball if he put the time and effort into it. He is an anamoly. Everyone doesn't have the same clean slate from birth to achieve similar results. It's not always just practice that makes you good at something. Certain people just don't have the coordination or natural ability to excel at sports, no matter how much they practice.

Genetics definitely plays a role. How can you argue otherwise?

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

What you're saying is silly. Jordan practiced and became arguably the best basketball player in the world. He may have been just as good at baseball if he put the time and effort into it. He is an anamoly. Everyone doesn't have the same clean slate from birth to achieve similar results. It's not always just practice that makes you good at something. Certain people just don't have the coordination or natural ability to excel at sports, no matter how much they practice.

Genetics definitely plays a role. How can you argue otherwise?

I'm not arguing otherwise. Apparently some people can't read very well either.

Yea, if a person has problems with sensorimotor functions because they suffered brain damage or has some genetic anomoly, then sure, they won't be very good at basketball, but in general, talent is acheived through practice. People can yap their trap all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

chopitdown

Ahnimus wrote:

Jordan is horrible at baseball.

Anyway, practicing and becoming good at something does not equate to an innate talent. Some how I think you are just talking out yer ass on this one.

No but to get to that level it does take natural ability and innate talent. I played college tennis and I've worked with some olympic / professional caliber athletes in other sports. And I can tell you that at some point you have to the genetics to get to the next level. I couldn't get to the higher ranks of college tennis and I was no threat to become a professional, not b/c I lacked hard work or good coaching but at some point natural ability (genetics) definitely plays a roll.

chopitdown

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not arguing otherwise. Apparently some people can't read very well either.

Yea, if a person has problems with sensorimotor functions because they suffered brain damage or has some genetic anomoly, then sure, they won't be very good at basketball, but in general, talent is acheived through practice. People can yap their trap all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

Yes talent is achieved through practice...but how come if you take 100 people and have them practice how come they dont' all end up at the same level...even if they practice the same way. I've taught beginning classes and some people pick up sports very quickly and others can practice 8 hours a day and they will never be good. Like most things, it's a combination of factors and you cant just isolate one thing and say it's the sole reason.

Ahnimus

chopitdown wrote:

Yes talent is achieved through practice...but how come if you take 100 people and have them practice how come they dont' all end up at the same level...even if they practice the same way. I've taught beginning classes and some people pick up sports very quickly and others can practice 8 hours a day and they will never be good. Like most things, it's a combination of factors and you cant just isolate one thing and say it's the sole reason.

Experience or "Nurture" is a wide range of things, it's difficult to quantify exactly what experiences will result in a fast learning athlete. My guess is it has to do with coordination and stuff. If a child played with a lot of balls and sports like stuff as an infant, they should find it easier than a child that was given more "educational" toys.

chopitdown

JD Sal wrote:

Everyone doesn't have the same clean slate from birth to achieve similar results. It's not always just practice that makes you good at something.

we can't say that...someone might get offended and feel hurt.

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not arguing otherwise. Apparently some people can't read very well either.

Yea, if a person has problems with sensorimotor functions because they suffered brain damage or has some genetic anomoly, then sure, they won't be very good at basketball, but in general, talent is acheived through practice. People can yap their trap all they want, but it doesn't change the facts.

I read just fine, thank you. And yes, you are arguing otherwise. You're saying that Jordan doesn't have any natural ability or genetic code that plays a role in his greatness at basketball. It was all achieved through practice? Come on.

Not everyone has the "natural" ability to be good at sports. It won't matter how much you practice, you will never achieve greatness. I'm not talking about people with brain damage. Just people that are simply not coordinated.

chopitdown

Ahnimus wrote:

Experience or "Nurture" is a wide range of things, it's difficult to quantify exactly what experiences will result in a fast learning athlete. My guess is it has to do with coordination and stuff. If a child played with a lot of balls and sports like stuff as an infant, they should find it easier than a child that was given more "educational" toys.

then the question becomes do they play with balls, sticks etc... b/c they were forced to or b/c they gravitated to them rather than more educational toys. Agassi's dad hung tennis balls over every kids crib and the only child that took notice of it and always followed the ball, even at an early age was andre. I'm not denying environment plays a roll in everything, but there is more to it than just that.

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

Experience or "Nurture" is a wide range of things, it's difficult to quantify exactly what experiences will result in a fast learning athlete. My guess is it has to do with coordination and stuff. If a child played with a lot of balls and sports like stuff as an infant, they should find it easier than a child that was given more "educational" toys.

So you're suggesting that coordination is simply a learned skill and not in any way natural?

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

I read just fine, thank you. And yes, you are arguing otherwise. You're saying that Jordan doesn't have any natural ability or genetic code that plays a role in his greatness at basketball. It was all achieved through practice? Come on.

Not everyone has the "natural" ability to be good at sports. It won't matter how much you practice, you will never achieve greatness. I'm not talking about people with brain damage. Just people that are simply not coordinated.

Coordination is a function of the brain.

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

So you're suggesting that coordination is simply a learned skill and not in any way natural?

No, I'm saying that it is both a learned skill and dependent on certain brain regions.

Can you at least try to understand what I'm saying?

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

No, I'm saying that it is both a learned skill and dependent on certain brain regions.

Can you at least try to understand what I'm saying?

Could you be any more condescending? It's not my inability to read or understand your brilliance, I simply disagree with some of the things that you are saying.

chopitdown wrote:

we can't say that...someone might get offended and feel hurt.

That's becoming very evident.

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

Could you be any more condescending? It's not my inability to read or understand your brilliance, I simply disagree with some of the things that you are saying.

You've clearly demonstrated that you do not understand. Pick up a Developmental Psychology textbook and maybe it will clarify my point.

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

You've clearly demonstrated that you do not understand. Pick up a Developmental Psychology textbook and maybe it will clarify my point.

:rolleyes:

Actually, my wife works in the developmental psychology field, but thank you for the suggestion to read a textbook.

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

:rolleyes:

Actually, my wife works in the developmental psychology field, but thank you for the suggestion to read a textbook.

Put her on.

JD Sal

Ahnimus wrote:

Put her on.

I just called her and summarized the thread, and she said you're crazy (her words). She said everyone excels at different areas of development (math, speech, language, artistic ability) based on various factors, including genetics.

She said you're obviously a Nature vs Nurture person, and that anyone with common senese would tell you that it's a combination of both.

Ahnimus

JD Sal wrote:

I just called her and summarized the thread, and she said you're crazy (her words). She said everyone excels at different areas of development (math, speech, language, artistic ability) based on various factors, including genetics.

She said you're obviously a Nature vs Nurture person, and that anyone with common senese would tell you that it's a combination of both.

Which is exactly what I said. So you truly didn't understand what I was saying.

Ahnimus

JD Sal, put your wife on when she gets home.

Look, I've read about developmental psychology, and development is definitely a combination of nature and nurture. The point I am making is that Michael Jordan did not become a great basketball player by genetics alone, and in-fact his genetics do not make him a good baseball player. So unless they identify a basketball gene, I'm willing to bet practice and training are responsible for his skills.

Genetics are responsible for the basic physique, but you will find only 3 main body types, and exercise and training account for the actual fitness and abilities of an individual. The importance of proper stimulation during infancy is irrefutable, I don't care if you are a developmental psychologist, this is something that you should simply know, if you are. It's my belief that a lot of intelligence is related to adequate stimulation during infant synaptogenesis and onward throughout life.

I may be right handed, but if I use my left hand enough, I can become ambidextrous, that's a fact. It's like saying "White men can't jump" because black men have better genes. It's absolute rubbish, white men can jump and are now playing basketball with the blacks.

Byrnzie

Ahnimus wrote:

JD Sal, put your wife on when she gets home.

Look, I've read about developmental psychology, and development is definitely a combination of nature and nurture. The point I am making is that Michael Jordan did not become a great basketball player by genetics alone, and in-fact his genetics do not make him a good baseball player. So unless they identify a basketball gene, I'm willing to bet practice and training are responsible for his skills.

Genetics are responsible for the basic physique, but you will find only 3 main body types, and exercise and training account for the actual fitness and abilities of an individual. The importance of proper stimulation during infancy is irrefutable, I don't care if you are a developmental psychologist, this is something that you should simply know, if you are. It's my belief that a lot of intelligence is related to adequate stimulation during infant synaptogenesis and onward throughout life.

I may be right handed, but if I use my left hand enough, I can become ambidextrous, that's a fact. It's like saying "White men can't jump" because black men have better genes. It's absolute rubbish, white men can jump and are now playing basketball with the blacks.

Well put! The force is strong in you! :cool: