Leprechauns

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited March 2007 in A Moving Train
I had a philosophy student over the other day. We had a great debate on everything from free-will to God. He's a Catholic and absolutely believes in free-will.

Anyway, the leprechaun. At some point he tells me that he saw a leprechaun. He said he knows now that it wasn't real. At first I thought he meant he was high, but I've heard of this before where kids see things like leprechauns, fairies, goblins and so on. I think that these fantasies cause reactions in the brain that attempt to incorporate the concepts into reality. The brain is doing a lot of pattern recognition, if it sees a blob of black shadow it might match it up with a nightshade demon from some video game. Likewise something else might look like a leprechaun. It's called Pareidolia when you match a pattern that doesn't match. For example the man on the moon, the devil on the old canadian dollars, the grilled cheese or jesus on the sheet metal. I think, especially with kids, sometimes the brain can just fill in the pattern, making the image clearer. The encouragement of fantasy and imagination on children may also encourage this kind of pareidolia. Maybe we should really encourage more life skills. I mean, parents sometimes criticize school for not providing life skills. But maybe parents should handle the development of their kids differently to cut down on some of the illusions and align the child's view with reality. I don't think you can just tell a developing brain that demons do not exist, then show them a dozen horror movies about demons, and expect the statement to stick. What might happen if you told them fairies, elfs, leprechauns, Santa Clause and God exist. I mean, when I was a kid, I had a personal relationship with Santa, Santa even knew what I was thinking, he knew when I was bad and when I was good. I didn't really mean to make this religious in any way, but when I think about it Santa is a lot like God.

Do leprechauns exist? If not, how can anyone see them?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • The DocThe Doc Posts: 14
    Did you ever hear the one about the guy who turns 21 and sees a leprechaun in the head?

    It's his 21st birthday, he's been drinking.
    He goes to take a leak and lets the steam loose. He notices something small standing at the urinal next to him, also taking a leak. By golly, it's a damned leprechaun. And he appears to have a humongous member.

    The guy turns to the leprechaun and says, "That's an impressive pipe you've got there. How'd you get it?"

    "All it takes is a good ass-humping," the leprechaun says, zipping up his little green pants. "Anyone can have one of these if they get humped in the arse."

    "I'll be damned," the guy says.

    "Tell you what," the leprechaun says. "You can walk out of here hung like a lynching victim if I just stick this here hose in your tiny bum hole."

    "Um," the guy says.

    "Serious," says the leprechaun. "It will be painless. It won't last an Irish minute."

    "Well," the guy says. "Okay. My woman would really dig it if I had one of those."

    So he pulls down the shades and the leprechaun starts going to work on him. He's humping, grinding, all that nasty shit. Moaning, whatever. In Irish.

    So then the leprechaun, while he's grunting and what-have-you, says, "So, laddy, what brings you to the bar tonight?"

    "It's...OUCH...My 21st birthday...Aaah!"

    "21, eh?" asks the leprechaun, still plugging away. "You're 21 and you still believe in leprechauns?"

    /Seacrest Out.
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ha ha. Interesting thread. I think I agree with your take on Pareidolia. Certainly, our experiences or what we are focusing on will influence how our mind 'connects the dots'. I think of the 'ink-blot' test. I see your point about children & their minds 'playing tricks on them'.

    I'm not sure where your point is going, however. I think you need to define 'Life Skills'. And I don't think stifling a child's imagination is a good idea. Sure kids will have nightmares after watching scary movies, but hey, that's part of growing up. I think nurturing a creative mind is very important. Creativity and imagination lead to success, as well as other factors. I mean, come on, what a bore life would be without fantasy, in books, films, etc. Didn't you have fun believing in Santa, Ahnimus?
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Ha ha. Interesting thread. I think I agree with your take on Pareidolia. Certainly, our experiences or what we are focusing on will influence how our mind 'connects the dots'. I think of the 'ink-blot' test. I see your point about children & their minds 'playing tricks on them'.

    I'm not sure where your point is going, however. I think you need to define 'Life Skills'. And I don't think stifling a child's imagination is a good idea. Sure kids will have nightmares after watching scary movies, but hey, that's part of growing up. I think nurturing a creative mind is very important. Creativity and imagination lead to success, as well as other factors. I mean, come on, what a bore life would be without fantasy, in books, films, etc. Didn't you have fun believing in Santa, Ahnimus?

    Sure, imagination is great. I don't think we are really bolstering imagination though. What we are doing is integrating someone else's ideas. A fairy or a demon is not the creation of a child's imagination, it's taught the ideas.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Life Skills

    What I meant by life skills is looking at things as they really are and taking the appropriate action. For example, you have bills that need to be paid, you need a job. Your car is broken, gotta take it to the shop. We encourage a child's lifestyle to not worry about things, to live in a fantasy realm with no cares. Then expect them to just become grounded in reality at some point when they are teenagers. We all know what that's like. If you think it was easy to start 9-5 as a young adult and give up all that precious time ignoring responsibility.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Sure, imagination is great. I don't think we are really bolstering imagination though. What we are doing is integrating someone else's ideas. A fairy or a demon is not the creation of a child's imagination, it's taught the ideas.

    When we listen to our favorite music, read a good book, see a good film, it's all from 'someone else's' imagination. Which, in turn, can influence our imagination.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Sure, imagination is great. I don't think we are really bolstering imagination though. What we are doing is integrating someone else's ideas. A fairy or a demon is not the creation of a child's imagination, it's taught the ideas.

    but not everyone sees or thinks of things in the same way...when i think of fairy might be different than what abook thinks of when she hears 'fairy' which may be different from the image baraka gets when she hears it which may be different than what you think of....the basic concept is there but there's plenty of room for imagination

    look at stephen king's 'it', if you read it the clown can be imagined pretty scary...when you see the shitty tv movie you are left disappointed by how lame it looks, it looked better in my head b/c of my imagination
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Life Skills

    What I meant by life skills is looking at things as they really are and taking the appropriate action. For example, you have bills that need to be paid, you need a job. Your car is broken, gotta take it to the shop. We encourage a child's lifestyle to not worry about things, to live in a fantasy realm with no cares. Then expect them to just become grounded in reality at some point when they are teenagers. We all know what that's like. If you think it was easy to start 9-5 as a young adult and give up all that precious time ignoring responsibility.


    So you are talking about common sense & responsibilities? Personally, I learned these things through my parents. Others might learn through experience, sadly other's never seem to learn. It's important to allow kids to be kids. And this is coming from someone who spends a lot of time trying to teach my 2 1/2 year old math & reading. I've been told I'm too aggressive with this. But, I allow her to be silly and watch her fantasy movies & play 'pretend' with her stuffed animals. Imagination is important and will help in learning those 'life lessons'.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    baraka wrote:
    So you are talking about common sense & responsibilities? Personally, I learned these things through my parents. Others might learn through experience, sadly other's never seem to learn. It's important to allow kids to be kids. And this is coming from someone who spends a lot of time trying to teach my 2 1/2 year old math & reading. I've been told I'm too aggressive with this. But, I allow her to be silly and watch her fantasy movies & play 'pretend' with her stuffed animals. Imagination is important and will help in learning those 'life lessons'.

    :)
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Do leprechauns exist?

    Yes they do exist and they write speeding tickets.
    ----

    Serioulsy, I think all these kinds of things really exist, I say this because while in South Africa I came across a tokoloshe. It was a tiny creature. All my zulu friends would put books under their beds to raise the beds up so the tokoloshe would not be able to jump onto them. Some people say it was a myth, others say it's real. But of course you could only see them after you drink a special zulu mix made by the witch doctors.

    Of course you also have the Chupacabra

    http://www.elchupacabra.com/whatis.html
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    so here's something i've always wondered...since we're on the subject of leprechauns :D


    are there female leprechauns? I mean there has to be right? how can there only be one sex? has anyone ever heard of a female leprechaun? It's just something that has really been bothering me for some time... :D
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Ahnimus wrote:
    What might happen if you told them fairies, elfs, leprechauns, Santa Clause and God exist. I mean, when I was a kid, I had a personal relationship with Santa...

    "All you need is faith and trust... and a little bit of pixie dust!"

    That is the whole magic of childhood... Who says these 'other beings' are just a figment of the imagination? Children are open to anything and everything, until society (school, parents, etc) put a stop to that.

    "If we opened our minds to enjoyment, we might find tranquil pleasures spread about us on every side. We might live with the angels that visit us on every sunbeam, and sit with the fairies who wait on every flower. " ~Samuel Smiles


    Are the children seeing and believing in these little people any different to adults believing in God and seeing saints or Mary (miraculous apparitions)? Is believing in their magic any different to believing in, say, the power of voodoo?

    As Lennon said "I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons." BTW.. we still have our 'fairy world' in a mysterious little corner at the back of our garden.... It's been there since my daughter discovered it when she was very little.....
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    Oh dear, is this REALLY a thread full of Americans asking if leprechauns exist? :eek:

    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    *runs to tell everyone*
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Oh dear, is this REALLY a thread full of Americans asking if leprechauns exist? :eek:

    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    *runs to tell everyone*


    *gives Nessie another sugar cube and strokes her head*

    i know... dumb tourist fuckers!! ;):D
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • Heineken HelenHeineken Helen Posts: 18,095
    dunkman wrote:
    *gives Nessie another sugar cube and strokes her head*

    i know... dumb tourist fuckers!! ;):D
    :D:D:D:D:D

    Need to find some red headed kids and give them green outfits and big hats and make them dance around in circles... quite far away!

    They used to do that at the cliffs of Moher apparently! Americans fell for it every time :D
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    You mean people don't eat and sleep in bear's houses when they are away? You can't spin hair into gold? But I forgot you don't believe that a human can make up their own mind. Or change their predecided course in life. So imagination is probably out of the discussion. Maybe these things like leprechauns and imps and elves really do exist but only show themselves to young kids, knowing that older people would want to kill, capture or put them on show. Nothing like the honesty and imagination of a young developing brain.
    You've changed your place in this world!
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnumus, look into imagination and how it works with memory and learning. There appears to be a link between the two.

    Also, look into commy's question........where are all the female leprechauns? ;)
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    baraka wrote:
    Also, look into commy's question........where are all the female leprechauns? ;)

    There are no female leprechauns...

    All you ever wanted to know about leprechauns but never dared to ask --> http://www.holidayinsights.com/stpat/leprechaun.htm
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Ahnumus, look into imagination and how it works with memory and learning. There appears to be a link between the two.

    Also, look into commy's question........where are all the female leprechauns? ;)

    So their imaginations could be about faries and leprechauns or it could be about cosmology or nature. I'd rather my kids imagine things that might be real.

    I don't think that really quantifies imagination. When I think about imagination it's a result of neurocomputation based on collected information. When I think leprechaun, I have a clear picture of a traditional leprechaun, he isn't wearing pink with a tutu and dancing to rap music. That would be imagination at work, but no I think of a short irish guy with a beard and a pipe, wearing greed, with little elf shoes. Something I've seen somewhere else before.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So their imaginations could be about faries and leprechauns or it could be about cosmology or nature. I'd rather my kids imagine things that might be real.
    I hate to think of all the fantastic literature, plays, ballets, movies, music that the world would have been deprived of if everyone thought this way.

    I'd encourage you, if and when you have kids, to accept them as they are and nurture their talents, whatever they might be.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    hippiemom wrote:
    I hate to think of all the fantastic literature, plays, ballets, movies, music that the world would have been deprived of if everyone thought this way.

    I'd encourage you, if and when you have kids, to accept them as they are and nurture their talents, whatever they might be.

    They will be whatever I make them to be. Tabula Rasa.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    They will be whatever I make them to be. Tabula Rasa.
    Please don't reproduce.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    hippiemom wrote:
    Please don't reproduce.

    I could say the same about you. Just because I have a difference of opinion. But I won't.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    You know what hippiemom...

    Children are not born with a set of talents, a personality or anything like that. They are a blank slate and they become whatever you subject them to.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    You know what hippiemom...

    Children are not born with a set of talents, a personality or anything like that. They are a blank slate and they become whatever you subject them to.
    That is the most perfectly ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

    [quote-Ahnimus]I could say the same about you. Just because I have a difference of opinion. But I won't.[/quote]
    I didn't say it because we have a difference of opinion, or because I don't like you (I think you know that I DO like you). It was said out of compassion for children, who oftentimes have their own ideas about what they might enjoy doing.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    hippiemom wrote:
    That is the most perfectly ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

    I didn't say it because we have a difference of opinion, or because I don't like you (I think you know that I DO like you). It was said out of compassion for children, who oftentimes have their own ideas about what they might enjoy doing.


    Well, it's the leading view in Developmental Psychology
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa

    Yea, so anyway, the brain doesn't work like you think.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Here is something else interesting about children and what people tend to assume in western culture.

    When Margaret Mead described her research to her students at Columbia University, she put succinctly what her objectives and her conclusions were. A first-hand account by an anthropologist who studied with Mead in the 60s and 70s provides the following information:

    1. Mead tells of Sex and Temperament in Three Primitive Societies. "She explained that nobody knew the degree to which temperament is biologically determined by sex. So she hoped to see whether there were cultural or social factors that affected temperament. Were men inevitably aggressive? Were women inevitably "homebodies"? It turned out that the three cultures she lived with in New Guinea were almost a perfect laboratory — for each had the variables that we associate with masculine and feminine in an arrangement different from ours. She said this surprised her, and wasn't what she was trying to find. It was just there.

    "Among the Arapesh, both men and women were peaceful in temperament and neither men nor women made war.

    "Among the Mundugumor, the opposite was true: both men and women were warlike in temperament.

    "And the Tchambuli were different from both. The men 'primped' and spent their time decorating themselves while the women worked and were the practical ones — the opposite of how it seemed in early 20th century America."

    2. Mead tells of Growing Up in New Guinea. "Margaret Mead told us how she came to the research problem on which she based her Growing Up in New Guinea. She reasoned as follows: If primitive adults think in an animistic way, as Piaget says our children do, how do primitive children think?

    "In her research on Manus Island of New Guinea, she discovered that 'primitive' children think in a very practical way and begin to think in terms of spirits etc. as they get older.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    These fairies, demons, spirits, Santa, God. They are not a child's thoughts, they are implanted into the children by society, television and their parents.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well, it's the leading view in Developmental Psychology
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa

    Yea, so anyway, the brain doesn't work like you think.
    Haha ... ok Ahnimus, if you say so :rolleyes:

    I could cut and paste various psych theories too, but I don't see what that would accomplish.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    During the 1970s and 1980s, Piaget’s works also inspired the transformation of European and American education, including both theory and practice, leading to a more ‘child-centred’ approach. In Conversations with Jean Piaget, he says: "Education, for most people, means trying to lead the child to resemble the typical adult of his society . . . but for me and no one else, education means making creators. . . . You have to make inventors, innovators—not conformists," (Bringuier, 1980, p.132).
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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