You are not matter!

Deni

Ahnimus wrote:

I wouldn't say a large part, it's equivelant to the placebo effect, which isn't a large effect, but certainly a healthy attitude helps to have a healthy body.

I would say a large part. I'd say its the most important part. I know people who have convinced themselves that they are going to die and guess what... they died! And I've known people who have come back from cancer because they believed that they would.

But you mentioned the "placebo effect" which only points to what I'm saying. When people believe that a medicine will work it is far more likely to work-- and that is true even in the face of it only being a placebo.

Ahnimus

Deni wrote:

I would say a large part. I'd say its the most important part. I know people who have convinced themselves that they are going to die and guess what... they died! And I've known people who have come back from cancer because they believed that they would.

But you mentioned the "placebo effect" which only points to what I'm saying. When people believe that a medicine will work it is far more likely to work-- and that is true even in the face of it only being a placebo.

Right, but its not that potent of an effect... really. One or two cases isn't evidence of its effect. Ask a doctor.

Deni

Ahnimus wrote:

Right, but its not that potent of an effect... really. One or two cases isn't evidence of its effect. Ask a doctor.

One or two cases?

From what I have been reading the placebo effect is universally widespread.

From bathing in "holy water" in France. To taking a sugar pill... the placebo effect is one of the oldest known "cures" in the history of medicine. How do you think faith healers work? Its all about using thought and the mind to heal the body.

NMyTree

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Oh wait... I get it exactly what he is saying. Deepak Chopra gets on about this too. All our atoms swap out. A lot faster than we think.

We grow new lungs, liver bones, teeth... in months...every year or two all our atoms 99.9% are replaced with new atoms from food and whatever we ingest.

I suppose it is our DNA which instructs new food energy etc... that we eat on where to go and how to become us.

Yeah this makes sense and is true afaik. That is freaky.

I never thought of that...How do the memories remain? Our brains must have an EPROM/EEPROM circuitry for hard wiring memories.

Then how do you explain muscle memory?

Deni

NMyTree wrote:

Then how do you explain muscle memory?

The same way you explain any other memory. The memory matrix in our brains is a pattern. We create for ourselves a new brain every few years, but the pattern is the same and the memory is stored there, not in the limb. We rebuild the "pattern" of the memory every few years.

But thats a perfect example of what I'm talking about. If a person loses and arm...say... and they can still feel it, well thats all mental. These nothing physical about that sensation. Its fully the power of the mind.

NMyTree

Deni wrote:

The same way you explain any other memory. The memory matrix in our brains is a pattern. We create for ourselves a new brain every few years, but the pattern is the same and the memory is stored there, not in the limb. We rebuild the "pattern" of the memory every few years.

But thats a perfect example of what I'm talking about. If a person loses and arm...say... and they can still feel it, well thats all mental. These nothing physical about that sensation. Its fully the power of the mind.

Muscle memory is different, I believe.

Muscle memory comes into play in a lot of activities and stuff, but especially in sports like hockey and working out.

I'm not so sure that explains it all away. I don't think it's just the brain, I believe there's certain movements/activities/moves your muscles need to repeat, in order for them to become accustomed to doing.

Have you ever ice skated? have you ever tried ice skating, while carrying a puck on the end of your stick? Ever tried doing that in a backskate?

gue_barium

NMyTree wrote:

Muscle memory is different, I believe.

Muscle memory comes into play in a lot of activities and stuff, but especially in sports like hockey and working out.

I'm not so sure that explains it all away. I don't think it's just the brain, I believe there's certain movements/activities/moves your muscles need to repeat, in order for them to become accustomed to doing.

Have you ever ice skated? have you ever tried ice skating, while carrying a puck on the end of your stick? Ever tried doing that in a backskate?

Muscle memory (the way you all are talking about it) is probably someplace in between the parasympathetic and sympathetic human nervous system, system.

Jeanie

gue_barium wrote:

Muscle memory (the way you all are talking about it) is probably someplace in between the parasympathetic and sympathetic human nervous system, system.

Muscles can't remember shit if the nerves don't work.

Well I'm sure they can but if the nerves aren't doing their job then it all comes to a grinding halt.

gue_barium

Jeanie wrote:

Muscles can't remember shit if the nerves don't work.

Well I'm sure they can but if the nerves aren't doing their job then it all comes to a grinding halt.

the parasympathetic nervous system is what drives your lungs to breath and your heart to beat. you probably already know this. then of course, the sympathetic nervous system involves the parts of your vaginal muscle system you can move yourself (making him a happy man).

In the instance those muscles move involuntarly in a fluttery fast fashion...


ok, i'll hit the hay now.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

NMyTree wrote:

Then how do you explain muscle memory?

Specifically no idea, however I imagine it may have something to do with muscle fiber hyperplasia.

It has been proven to exist in rats, but I don't know if they've started chopping up people yet as test subjects to confirm this in humans.

I do know that if you stop training or diet excessively without strength training your muscle(s) will atrophy significantly.

What that means specifically in this case is anyone's guess. In the meantime I'll keep looking for the answer in the gym 4-6 days a week.

Ahnimus

muscles have no memory. The term refers to parts of the brain, probably the premotor cortex.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

As per Wiki:

"When an active person trains movement, often of the same activity, in an effort to stimulate the mind’s adaptation process, the end result is to induce a physiological change such as increased levels of accuracy through repetition. Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or what some call motor memory, the nickname muscle memory is commonly used."

edit:

It's really all about the brain I believe.

"In detail, inside the brain are neurons that produce impulses, which carry tiny electrical currents. These currents cross the synapses between neurons with chemical transporters called neurotransmitters to carry the communication. Neurotransmitters are the body’s communicative mechanisms and one of their many functions is to travel through the central nervous system and carry the signal from visual cue to the muscle for the contraction."

Jeanie

gue_barium wrote:

the parasympathetic nervous system is what drives your lungs to breath and your heart to beat. you probably already know this. then of course, the sympathetic nervous system involves the parts of your vaginal muscle system you can move yourself (making him a happy man).

In the instance those muscles move involuntarly in a fluttery fast fashion...


ok, i'll hit the hay now.

makes sense. Still nothing will work if the nerves don't.

anyhoo, sweet dreams gue.

Jeanie

Wish I could stop reading this thread's title as "You DO not matter"

catefrances

Ahnimus wrote:

"[Think] of an experience from your childhood. Something you
remember clearly, something you can see, feel, maybe even
smell, as if you were really there. After all, you really were
there at the time, weren't you? How else would you
remember it? But here is the bombshell: you weren't there.
Not a single atom that is in your body today was there
when that event took place . . . Matter flows from place
to place and momentarily comes together to be you.
Whatever you are, therefore, you are not the stuff of
which you are made. If that doesn't make the hair stand
up on the back of your neck, read it again until it does,
because it is important."
(The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins; Page 363)

Sweet, it really is a weird thing, isn't it?

ive been thinking these past few days. this has got to do with that premise about there being a certain amount of matter in the universe and it can't be increased and decreased, hasn't it? that the amount of matter is a constant and the only thing that changes is the way it is constituted, yeah?
help me out here, i am not especially science minded. as far as i'm concerned science is not gospel, so just to balance my non belief in religion, i tend to question science a lot.

OutOfBreath

Ahnimus wrote:

We are matter arranged in a specific pattern. The pattern can become disrupted and we change. There are many examples of this.

Haven't said otherwise.

If a disruption of the pattern, such as brain damage, can cause something like aphasia, then doesn't it follow that if the entire pattern was disrupted (e.g. death/decay) then 'we' would cease to exist?

That doesn't really prove anything in that respect. To use an analogy, if you hear a voice through a phone, and then you don't because the voice is distorted or ceases altogether, do the voice not exist, or is it just faulty equipment failing to convey it?

That's the logical conclusion. The illogical conclusion is that there is something to it that exists beyond everything we can possibly know. Something which is affected by brain damage, but not affected by death. And that is utter speculation, always based on a prior belief system and incredulity.

It is perfectly rational to assume knowledge beyond our current reach. It has been the working assumption of science since ever. And I might point out that you are not uncoloured by your belief in there being nothing whatsoever to any of what I have been positing. Also, I think you get snagged by me using the term "soul". Note that I tie no religious baggage to the term at all, but rather see it as an apt concept and word to use for the immaterial something that obviously forms us. (since matter alone by your assertion doesn't) Furthermore, I am not really claiming anything more definite in that direction, I am asking questions and leaving room open for the things unanswered. I know you always want to bolt shut the door and throw away the key to anything remotely religious or spiritual of nature. I'm not willing to do that, as I think that narrows down our thinking too much. Thus, us fundamentally not being matter, and rather being like wave patterns on an unknown sea of something, well you gotta admit, it's hard to credibly shut that door too tight without resorting to belief or scientific disregard (and thus needing no backing) for religious aspects.

We dont know everything, and there are areas of knowledge we probably never will know for certain. Which is why mysticism, religion and general spirituality will never go away completely.

Peace
Dan