Yes. And it starts making the concept of soul interesting again too. Since something makes us be what we are, and it ain't matter, well.... Couldn't that be called soul, nevermind particular christian beliefs about it?
But interesting to ponder.
Peace
Dan
It's more likely the arrangement of matter. A wave for example, does not contain the same water molecules as it cascades, yet it maintains the appearence of a single object in our minds.
If memory is stored in something like a Hopfield Network, then it doesn't matter if the cells die and new cells take their place, so long as the pattern is retained.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Read 'The holographic universe' by Michael Talbot for the answer.
Science fiction.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I never thought of it that way but it is a little strange.
What about non replicative cells? Such as neurons for example : no replication of the cell = no replication of the DNA. The DNA strands are the same than the ones you had when you were born?
And atoms never get lost, so technically the atoms that left me could very well be the same that are making your physical you right now.
(the post below me : considering the quote is from a book called "the god delusion" I would say no to that)
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Hey, mabybe this scientific logic will actually hold up in court some day? I could just see it now--a trial 10--20 yrs after the crime, where the murderer gets off of charges because he "technically" wasn't there in body--or mind.
btw, ahnimus, I hope you have no hard feelings towards me because of the anus thing:)--it really was out of line. sorry. Besides, it was a few weeks ago and I "technically" was not the same person then, was I?
No hard feelings, I hold no anusmosity about it. Err.. I mean animosity.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yes, so? It doesn't change much, adult neurogenesis is a limited event, limited in the number of neurons and limited where it takes places. I'm still unsure if the DNA of some of your neurons isn't still the same (atomically) than at birth.
It doesn't change anything to what you said anyway since the rest of the neuron itself has been renewed multiple times.
Yes, so? It doesn't change much, adult neurogenesis is a limited event, limited in the number of neurons and limited where it takes places. I'm still unsure if the DNA of some of your neurons isn't still the same (atomically) than at birth.
It doesn't change anything to what you said anyway since the rest of the neuron itself has been renewed multiple times.
Right, well, Scubascott my better answer your question. My limited understanding is that DNA repeats during Trinucleide cycles or something, but it's different proteins or whatever, the code is the same, unless something happens during the polymerization. If something happens, you get cancer or whatever, brain tumors happen, and I think that's how, but I'm not so knowledgable about biology in general.
I know fundamentally the arrangement of the matter, whether it's a table, a dog or a human, is what makes those 'things', otherwise they are just atoms.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Right, well, Scubascott my better answer your question. My limited understanding is that DNA repeats during Trinucleide cycles or something, but it's different proteins or whatever, the code is the same, unless something happens during the polymerization. If something happens, you get cancer or whatever, brain tumors happen, and I think that's how, but I'm not so knowledgable about biology in general.
I know fundamentally the arrangement of the matter, whether it's a table, a dog or a human, is what makes those 'things', otherwise they are just atoms.
I get that, I was just wondering if it was the same atoms in dna if the cell never replicates. I'm not sure about it so I'll stop here!
I remember reading in 'a little something about everything' that we all share some 200 millions of shakespear's atoms (and other famous people I guess) since they are rarely (if never) renewed. We just keep on exchanging our matter, by never staying the same. And for all I know, you'll be a part of my grand children.
I get that, I was just wondering if it was the same atoms in dna if the cell never replicates. I'm not sure about it so I'll stop here!
I remember reading in 'a little something about everything' that we all share some 200 millions of shakespear's atoms (and other famous people I guess) since they are rarely (if never) renewed. We just keep on exchanging our matter, by never staying the same. And for all I know, you'll be a part of my grand children.
Yea, I've read that every glass of water containes some of Oliver Cromwell's urine.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm having a nice glass of dinosaur pee right now...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
It's more likely the arrangement of matter. A wave for example, does not contain the same water molecules as it cascades, yet it maintains the appearence of a single object in our minds.
If memory is stored in something like a Hopfield Network, then it doesn't matter if the cells die and new cells take their place, so long as the pattern is retained.
And yet, you have earlier scoffed at books and theories concerning holographic reality.
Waves are an apt analogy it would seem. But still, once acknowledging that we are not matter, it opens up a lot of room for stuff like the soul, the collective unconscious and so on. And that's where it gets interesting the way I see it. Saying that we are waves or wave functions isn't really an answer as it just brings along a lot of other tougher questions about the nature of the waves, the origin of waves in the first place and on and on.
This is where science intersects spirituality, religion and beliefs. And as I said, the part where I think it gets interesting.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
And yet, you have earlier scoffed at books and theories concerning holographic reality.
Waves are an apt analogy it would seem. But still, once acknowledging that we are not matter, it opens up a lot of room for stuff like the soul, the collective unconscious and so on. And that's where it gets interesting the way I see it. Saying that we are waves or wave functions isn't really an answer as it just brings along a lot of other tougher questions about the nature of the waves, the origin of waves in the first place and on and on.
This is where science intersects spirituality, religion and beliefs. And as I said, the part where I think it gets interesting.
Peace
Dan
How? Where is this link between "Arrangement of matter" and "Soul" or "Collective Consciousness"? there is no link there.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
so does this mean i just ate my grandparents for dinner last night? not to mention keeef may well really have snorted his own father.
I'd put my betting chips on it.
Brings a whole new angle to the phrase "live through me".
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
In April of this year I invited one of the film’s directors, William Arntz, along with one of his science consultants, Joe Dispenza, to Portland State University. To put the question of free will and responsibility to the test I put up a photo of a child with Downs Syndrome. I asked if this child was free to create any reality he wanted. Was this child responsible for his condition, I queried? Arnzt responded that in fact he is to blame for his disorder—he is paying for transgressions in a previous life. This is the same doctrine of reincarnation and karma that justified the caste system in India. The same logic blames the patient for their cancer.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
In April of this year I invited one of the film’s directors, William Arntz, along with one of his science consultants, Joe Dispenza, to Portland State University. To put the question of free will and responsibility to the test I put up a photo of a child with Downs Syndrome. I asked if this child was free to create any reality he wanted. Was this child responsible for his condition, I queried? Arnzt responded that in fact he is to blame for his disorder—he is paying for transgressions in a previous life. This is the same doctrine of reincarnation and karma that justified the caste system in India. The same logic blames the patient for their cancer.
Oi think Jack White just wrote a particularly good song about this type of shit.
In science we define our terms with semantic precision. I define the “soul” as the unique pattern of information that represents the essence of a person. By this definition, unless there is some medium to retain the pattern of our personal information after we die, our soul dies with us. Our bodies are made of proteins, coded by our DNA, so with the disintegration of DNA our protein patterns are lost forever. Our memories and personality are stored in the patterns of neurons firing in our brains, so when those neurons die it spells the death of our memories and personality, similar to the ravages of stroke and Alzheimer’s disease, only final.
Because the brain does not perceive itself, it imputes mental activity to a separate source — hallucinations of preternatural entities such as ghosts, angels, and aliens are perceived as actual beings; out-of-body and near-death experiences are sensed as external events instead of internal states. Likewise, the neural pattern of information that is our memories and personality — our “self” — is sensed as a soul. In this sense, the soul is an illusion.
- Michael Shermer
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
How? Where is this link between "Arrangement of matter" and "Soul" or "Collective Consciousness"? there is no link there.
Oh? You are opening the door wide open for the world being arranged by something immaterial. We are in fact not made of solid matter. What we are transcends matter, since the matter is exchanged in us at a furious pace. Do you really not see how that will bring up matters like the soul or spirit?
As for the collective unconscious, if all we are are waves, then we are waves upon the same surface, meaning that we are all really one, or rather endlessly interconnected. A collective unconscious isn't that far-fetched given those conditions.
I am not claiming anything definite here. I'm just saying that the realization you made in the original post really makes these questions very valid. Do you really not see that, even if you disagree with it?
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Oh? You are opening the door wide open for the world being arranged by something immaterial. We are in fact not made of solid matter. What we are transcends matter, since the matter is exchanged in us at a furious pace. Do you really not see how that will bring up matters like the soul or spirit?
As for the collective unconscious, if all we are are waves, then we are waves upon the same surface, meaning that we are all really one, or rather endlessly interconnected. A collective unconscious isn't that far-fetched given those conditions.
I am not claiming anything definite here. I'm just saying that the realization you made in the original post really makes these questions very valid. Do you really not see that, even if you disagree with it?
Peace
Dan
I don't see the connection. The best I can do is suggest that this "soul" is like a balloon, where the matter is the water the balloon is full of. The balloon holds the waters shape, but when it's popped it's all over.
I don't see how you are getting where you are going with this. There is a big void between what is and what you think ought to be.
Sorry dude,
Ryan
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I don't see the connection. The best I can do is suggest that this "soul" is like a balloon, where the matter is the water the balloon is full of. The balloon holds the waters shape, but when it's popped it's all over.
That's an flawed analogy on your part I think, as the material that is the balloon doesn't cease to exist, it is just deflated. So given that analogy, when the balloon bursts, it merely ceases to be a water-filled balloon. Still, what shapes the water is not answered at all with this. You just say water is shaped and then it's not. What is the balloon? What is it made of? Where does it come from? Why is it a balloon? There are loads of rrom for questions, good questions within that framework, which has kinda been my point all along.
I don't see how you are getting where you are going with this. There is a big void between what is and what you think ought to be.
Well, I can't help how you see what I see. You assume a lot of things here I think, that I haven't said. Or at least not said in this thread (as my posts have been very short indeed). I have just pointed out how a lot of questions arise from the realization that we are not matter. Old questions, to be sure, but still questions that go unanswered here.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
That's an flawed analogy on your part I think, as the material that is the balloon doesn't cease to exist, it is just deflated. So given that analogy, when the balloon bursts, it merely ceases to be a water-filled balloon. Still, what shapes the water is not answered at all with this. You just say water is shaped and then it's not. What is the balloon? What is it made of? Where does it come from? Why is it a balloon? There are loads of rrom for questions, good questions within that framework, which has kinda been my point all along.
Well, I can't help how you see what I see. You assume a lot of things here I think, that I haven't said. Or at least not said in this thread (as my posts have been very short indeed). I have just pointed out how a lot of questions arise from the realization that we are not matter. Old questions, to be sure, but still questions that go unanswered here.
Peace
Dan
We are matter arranged in a specific pattern. The pattern can become disrupted and we change. There are many examples of this.
If a disruption of the pattern, such as brain damage, can cause something like aphasia, then doesn't it follow that if the entire pattern was disrupted (e.g. death/decay) then 'we' would cease to exist?
That's the logical conclusion. The illogical conclusion is that there is something to it that exists beyond everything we can possibly know. Something which is affected by brain damage, but not affected by death. And that is utter speculation, always based on a prior belief system and incredulity.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You know, I've been doing some research on healing the physical body through the power of the mind, and this is what I've come too as well. Apparently the state of our bodies today is an amalgamation of what we were in the past. A disease forms in the past, and because of our bodies constant state of replenishment we can achieve health by focusing on being healthy today! And this will lead to having the disease gone tomorrow.
It's fascinating. -- Oh course you wanna take your medicine and see your doctors, but science is proving that those who have a "will to live" will survive, and those who don't... well... don't. Its because a large portion of our health is mental not physical.
You know, I've been doing some research on healing the physical body through the power of the mind, and this is what I've come too as well. Apparently the state of our bodies today is an amalgamation of what we were in the past. A disease forms in the past, and because of our bodies constant state of replenishment we can achieve health by focusing on being healthy today! And this will lead to having the disease gone tomorrow.
It's fascinating. -- Oh course you wanna take your medicine and see your doctors, but science is proving that those who have a "will to live" will survive, and those who don't... well... don't. Its because a large portion of our health is mental not physical.
I wouldn't say a large part, it's equivelant to the placebo effect, which isn't a large effect, but certainly a healthy attitude helps to have a healthy body.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
It's more likely the arrangement of matter. A wave for example, does not contain the same water molecules as it cascades, yet it maintains the appearence of a single object in our minds.
If memory is stored in something like a Hopfield Network, then it doesn't matter if the cells die and new cells take their place, so long as the pattern is retained.
Science fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_neurogenesis
No hard feelings, I hold no anusmosity about it. Err.. I mean animosity.
peace & love
Yes, so? It doesn't change much, adult neurogenesis is a limited event, limited in the number of neurons and limited where it takes places. I'm still unsure if the DNA of some of your neurons isn't still the same (atomically) than at birth.
It doesn't change anything to what you said anyway since the rest of the neuron itself has been renewed multiple times.
Right, well, Scubascott my better answer your question. My limited understanding is that DNA repeats during Trinucleide cycles or something, but it's different proteins or whatever, the code is the same, unless something happens during the polymerization. If something happens, you get cancer or whatever, brain tumors happen, and I think that's how, but I'm not so knowledgable about biology in general.
I know fundamentally the arrangement of the matter, whether it's a table, a dog or a human, is what makes those 'things', otherwise they are just atoms.
—Dorothy Parker
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6902/conspiracytheoriesxt6qt8.jpg
I get that, I was just wondering if it was the same atoms in dna if the cell never replicates. I'm not sure about it so I'll stop here!
I remember reading in 'a little something about everything' that we all share some 200 millions of shakespear's atoms (and other famous people I guess) since they are rarely (if never) renewed. We just keep on exchanging our matter, by never staying the same. And for all I know, you'll be a part of my grand children.
Yea, I've read that every glass of water containes some of Oliver Cromwell's urine.
well that explains why i feel and act like a fucking arsehole sometimes.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
so does this mean i just ate my grandparents for dinner last night? not to mention keeef may well really have snorted his own father.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And yet, you have earlier scoffed at books and theories concerning holographic reality.
Waves are an apt analogy it would seem. But still, once acknowledging that we are not matter, it opens up a lot of room for stuff like the soul, the collective unconscious and so on. And that's where it gets interesting the way I see it. Saying that we are waves or wave functions isn't really an answer as it just brings along a lot of other tougher questions about the nature of the waves, the origin of waves in the first place and on and on.
This is where science intersects spirituality, religion and beliefs. And as I said, the part where I think it gets interesting.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Thanks Byrnzie.
I've written it on my book list.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
How? Where is this link between "Arrangement of matter" and "Soul" or "Collective Consciousness"? there is no link there.
I'd put my betting chips on it.
Brings a whole new angle to the phrase "live through me".
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
"Quantum flapdoodle" I will remember this word as long as I live now.
Here's some Ahnimus porn
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/04-10-01.html
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/gell1.htm
A good read.
Love this part...
In April of this year I invited one of the film’s directors, William Arntz, along with one of his science consultants, Joe Dispenza, to Portland State University. To put the question of free will and responsibility to the test I put up a photo of a child with Downs Syndrome. I asked if this child was free to create any reality he wanted. Was this child responsible for his condition, I queried? Arnzt responded that in fact he is to blame for his disorder—he is paying for transgressions in a previous life. This is the same doctrine of reincarnation and karma that justified the caste system in India. The same logic blames the patient for their cancer.
Oi think Jack White just wrote a particularly good song about this type of shit.
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/debates/afterlife.html
In science we define our terms with semantic precision. I define the “soul” as the unique pattern of information that represents the essence of a person. By this definition, unless there is some medium to retain the pattern of our personal information after we die, our soul dies with us. Our bodies are made of proteins, coded by our DNA, so with the disintegration of DNA our protein patterns are lost forever. Our memories and personality are stored in the patterns of neurons firing in our brains, so when those neurons die it spells the death of our memories and personality, similar to the ravages of stroke and Alzheimer’s disease, only final.
Because the brain does not perceive itself, it imputes mental activity to a separate source — hallucinations of preternatural entities such as ghosts, angels, and aliens are perceived as actual beings; out-of-body and near-death experiences are sensed as external events instead of internal states. Likewise, the neural pattern of information that is our memories and personality — our “self” — is sensed as a soul. In this sense, the soul is an illusion.
- Michael Shermer
As for the collective unconscious, if all we are are waves, then we are waves upon the same surface, meaning that we are all really one, or rather endlessly interconnected. A collective unconscious isn't that far-fetched given those conditions.
I am not claiming anything definite here. I'm just saying that the realization you made in the original post really makes these questions very valid. Do you really not see that, even if you disagree with it?
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I don't see the connection. The best I can do is suggest that this "soul" is like a balloon, where the matter is the water the balloon is full of. The balloon holds the waters shape, but when it's popped it's all over.
I don't see how you are getting where you are going with this. There is a big void between what is and what you think ought to be.
Sorry dude,
Ryan
Well, I can't help how you see what I see. You assume a lot of things here I think, that I haven't said. Or at least not said in this thread (as my posts have been very short indeed). I have just pointed out how a lot of questions arise from the realization that we are not matter. Old questions, to be sure, but still questions that go unanswered here.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
We are matter arranged in a specific pattern. The pattern can become disrupted and we change. There are many examples of this.
If a disruption of the pattern, such as brain damage, can cause something like aphasia, then doesn't it follow that if the entire pattern was disrupted (e.g. death/decay) then 'we' would cease to exist?
That's the logical conclusion. The illogical conclusion is that there is something to it that exists beyond everything we can possibly know. Something which is affected by brain damage, but not affected by death. And that is utter speculation, always based on a prior belief system and incredulity.
It's fascinating. -- Oh course you wanna take your medicine and see your doctors, but science is proving that those who have a "will to live" will survive, and those who don't... well... don't. Its because a large portion of our health is mental not physical.
Peace and Love
Deni
I wouldn't say a large part, it's equivelant to the placebo effect, which isn't a large effect, but certainly a healthy attitude helps to have a healthy body.