Religion + Politics

republicanfan74

My point about shut up and entertain us is i don't remember vh1 previewing the show as political diatribe. The first thing eddie said was a comment about chenney and bush. Please explain to me how calling bush a liar contributed to any song pearl jam ever created.
If you really believe any of those references to god in the dec.... was anything but a reference to the judeo-christian god, then our teaching of our founding fathers, culture and society has been whitewashed by our secular academia.
Futhermore, just because islamic states use sharia law to govern their people and we use our constitution, dosen't mean the founders did not envision a christian nation. Even today, after decades of liberal secularism shoved down our students, polls still show over 80% of americans consider themselves christian. Every presidents swears his oath on a bible, makes references to god in all speaches, in god we trust on our currency. I hope you know what god their referencing. Both houses of congress open each session with a prayer and so on.

republicanfan74

bowl_of_soup wrote:

republicanfan74, if Eddie was a conservative, would you be bitching this much???

If i wanted political opinion, i would have went to the proper outlet for it. I just wanted to hear some good pearl jam music and maybe here how the song came about. I garuentee you if you asked anyone attending the concert if they came to here his opinion about political topics or came to hear good music, you know the answer.
That's all.

republicanfan74

he still stands wrote:

I don't know, I think its better for entertainers to just shut up, be brain dead, not give a fuck about anything, not take a stand or opinion in any regard, and fill the time with their mindless work.

I'm not telling any entertainer to be a mindless zombie, never taking a stand on an issue, what I am saying is save it for the proper venue. When I tune into a political talk show airing anyone, entertainer or not, I'm obviously interested in their view regardless if I agree with them or not.

angelica

republicanfan74 wrote:

My point about shut up and entertain us is i don't remember vh1 previewing the show as political diatribe. The first thing eddie said...

The show may not have been pushed as such, and yet the first moment you heard politics come out of his mouth, you had the choice to listen or not. Apparently you chose to listen. That choice is not on Eddie.

Eddie doesn't work for you. He works to be true to his vision, and he doesn't owe anyone anything. If you pay (contract) to hear him share his point of view, or if you sit in front of a tv and do so (another contract), that's up to you--Eddie is not accountable for your actions. It sounds like you disagree with points of his view.

Even today, after decades of liberal secularism shoved down our students, polls still show over 80% of americans consider themselves christian.

I would think Americans appreciate the processes to uncovering truth, which include the dissent of the groups outside the majority--in this case, the 20%. An unchecked mass of any sort can get pretty ugly.

republicanfan74

angelica wrote:

The show may not have been pushed as such, and yet the first moment you heard politics come out of his mouth, you had the choice to listen or not. Apparently you chose to listen. That choice is not on Eddie.

Eddie doesn't work for you. He works to be true to his vision, and he doesn't owe anyone anything. If you pay (contract) to hear him share his point of view, or if you sit in front of a tv and do so (another contract), that's up to you--Eddie is not accountable for your actions. It sounds like you disagree with points of his view.

I would think Americans appreciate the processes to uncovering truth, which include the dissent of the groups outside the majority--in this case, the 20%. An unchecked mass of any sort can get pretty ugly.

I think the secular, liberal agenda pushed by hollywood, academia and the press has created a pretty ugly scene, since the 60's. Teen-pregnancy, crime, the most expensive piece of crap public school system in the world and every other social ill is a by-product of liberal ideas.
Fortunately, through future gains in coming elections, our country may improve.

mca47

My friend is a Jahovah's Witness. We constantly get into arguements about well, pretty much everything. What's funny about this religion, (among other things) if you're not aware, is that they can have no part or say in government or politics.
I find it funny how he can sit there and bitch and complain about things that are going on around him yet can apparently do nothing about it. I ask him all the time "what does it feel like to sit by and allow everyone else to tell you have to run your life and not have any say". He's always like "well, it doesn't matter anyways" or "we do what we believe in, everything else comes second" that kind of nonsense.
They don't believe in war of any kind, they don't believe in the nation or it's defense, or the policies that are involved in everyday life. Sure, they pay taxes (which they have no say in) but essentially I find them to be freeloaders. They take advantage of what everyone else around them has provided. The only way this religion can exist is in a "free" "democracy", but it is really the only one where you don't have to do shit and still get the benefits.
They believe that man is flawed and the only ruler is god, or Jahovah. Basically they are living their lives just to die. It's pretty sad, and quite sick IMO.
I don't know how anybody can live in that cult-like way. Some of the wacky things these people believe in...
-Having no say in how the country, state, or local govs. work.
-Not suppost to associate with the "worldly" people outside of their religion.
-Not being able to take blood even if your life is in danger. Apparenly some passage in the bible (taken out of context...as most are) says you aren't suppost to take blood from someone else. So basically if you get into an accident and need blood, your as good as dead.
-Not being able to take part in holidays. WTF?
I can go on and on.

I've said it many times in the past and I'll say it again...
Organized religion has been the biggest downfall of man.

he still stands

republicanfan74 wrote:

My point about shut up and entertain us is i don't remember vh1 previewing the show as political diatribe. The first thing eddie said was a comment about chenney and bush. Please explain to me how calling bush a liar contributed to any song pearl jam ever created.
If you really believe any of those references to god in the dec.... was anything but a reference to the judeo-christian god, then our teaching of our founding fathers, culture and society has been whitewashed by our secular academia.
Futhermore, just because islamic states use sharia law to govern their people and we use our constitution, dosen't mean the founders did not envision a christian nation. Even today, after decades of liberal secularism shoved down our students, polls still show over 80% of americans consider themselves christian. Every presidents swears his oath on a bible, makes references to god in all speaches, in god we trust on our currency. I hope you know what god their referencing. Both houses of congress open each session with a prayer and so on.

From Legacy Of Freedom by Rob Boston, Church and State, January, 2003. "Jefferson, Madison And The Nation's Founders Left Us Church-State Separation. Can We Keep It?"

What the Religious Right doesn't tell people, and what, tragically, many Amer*icans apparently don't know, is that when it comes to determining what the laws of the United States mean, the only document that matters is the Consti*tution. The Constitution, a completely secular document, contains no references to God, Jesus or Christianity. It says absolutely nothing about the United States being officially Christian. The Religious Right's constant appeals to documents like the Declaration of Independence, which contains a deistic reference to "the Creator," cloud the issue and make some people believe their rights spring from these other documents.
----
So nothing has been "whitewashed by our secular academia" as you describe it. As I said before, the religious right is trying to take something back that never existed, not the other way around. Faith-based politics is a new thing. The word "God" didn't appear on American currency until 1864. The pledge of allegiance didn't contain the word "God" until the Eisenhower administration. And just because the president is sworn in with a bible or because he references God in speeches does not mean that it must be the right thing to do. This is exactly what we are fucking debating, the fact that these things need to change.



Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
-Thomas Paine

Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect. (James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774)

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society. (John Adams)

And finally, not a founding father but....

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."-Abraham Lincoln

ryan198

republicanfan74 wrote:

I think the secular, liberal agenda pushed by hollywood, academia and the press has created a pretty ugly scene, since the 60's. Teen-pregnancy, crime, the most expensive piece of crap public school system in the world and every other social ill is a by-product of liberal ideas.
Fortunately, through future gains in coming elections, our country may improve.

WOW!!! Where did you learn that teen-pregnancy, crime, and public school is solely the bi-product of liberal ideas, couldn't it be the conservative application of liberal ideals? Teen pregnancy happens a bunch b/c there are no parents home working two jobs b/c corporate america has taken away basic rights for the people, even though kids are obviously having sex, they are rarely taught birth control in schools (last I checked this is conservative stuff). Crime is the fault of liberals (huh)? Public school system in demise (Do you know about No Child Left Behind?)

Further I don't understand the problem with academia...isn't it kind of weird that the most well read people in the world think that the rich are screwing the poor at every turn? Somehow this critical stance is read as being idiotic, but these are the most intelligent people we have ... I don't get it.

angelica

republicanfan74 wrote:

I think the secular, liberal agenda pushed by hollywood, academia and the press has created a pretty ugly scene, since the 60's. Teen-pregnancy, crime, the most expensive piece of crap public school system in the world and every other social ill is a by-product of liberal ideas.
Fortunately, through future gains in coming elections, our country may improve.

I see that ugly wave in a very different light--in the light of natural human evolution. As humans are growing into health, it entails addressing the wounds we've inherited. As we progress towards health, it includes opening up those festering ulcerations and cleansing them so that they can heal. It's not a pretty sight, but it's a necessary one.

Your bias against all that is liberal is obvious.

angelica

mca47 wrote:

I've said it many times in the past and I'll say it again...
Organized religion has been the biggest downfall of man.

And I'll say this once again--arrogance and condescension is the downfall of man. When we're "right" we are not understanding what's really happening. Instead we are looking at our own agenda.

republicanfan74

angelica wrote:

I see that ugly wave in a very different light--in the light of natural human evolution. As humans are growing into health, it entails addressing the wounds we've inherited. As we progress towards health, it includes opening up those festering ulcerations and cleansing them so that they can heal. It's not a pretty sight, but it's a necessary one.

Your bias against all that is liberal is obvious.

If you think the drug-abuse, crime, illiteracy, high divorce rate and other problems with our country as evolution, my point is made.

hippiemom

republicanfan74 wrote:

If i wanted political opinion, i would have went to the proper outlet for it. I just wanted to hear some good pearl jam music and maybe here how the song came about. I garuentee you if you asked anyone attending the concert if they came to here his opinion about political topics or came to hear good music, you know the answer.
That's all.

I go to see Pearl Jam. I expect that to include both music and politics, as it always has. I would have been very surprised if Ed hadn't taken advantage of the megaphone provided by VH1 to discuss his political views ... that would have been totally out of character for him. My question is, why would you expect Pearl Jam to be something different than they've always been?

republicanfan74

angelica wrote:

And I'll say this once again--arrogance and condescension is the downfall of man. When we're "right" we are not understanding what's really happening. Instead we are looking at our own agenda.

Please explain to me how observing the wrong direction our country has taken the past 4 decades and hoping for a change for the better is either arrogant or condescending.

angelica

republicanfan74 wrote:

If you think the drug-abuse, crime, illiteracy, high divorce rate and other problems with our country as evolution, my point is made.

Are you saying we are devolving as humans? Are you taking those on the fringes as an accurate representation of where we are as a whole?

The fallout in our society is certainly in existence, and it certainly is the fallout in our society. I find it interesting when someone points the blame elsewhere--like blaming Eddie Vedder because you listen to his politics. To me, it indicates a lack of personal ownership and a lack of problem solving where it begins: within each individual. Blame indicates that we are stuck and impotent.

If you honestly believe the right is "right" or the left is "wrong", you're missing out on the truth. We're all humans. We all make mistakes, we all do good things, as well.

ryan198

republicanfan74 wrote:

Please explain to me how observing the wrong direction our country has taken the past 4 decades and hoping for a change for the better is either arrogant or condescending.

the funny part is that you get the timeline right but you are looking at it from the microlevel. at a larger level the power corporations have helped facilitate many of these things that you are lamenting.

angelica

republicanfan74 wrote:

Please explain to me how observing the wrong direction our country has taken the past 4 decades and hoping for a change for the better is either arrogant or condescending.

I believe there are many ways the US of A is off track. There are many valid issues.

The meaning of arrogance and condescension is standing above another human being or a group and saying I'm right and you are wrong. It is putting one's self on an uneven playing field, illustrating the unbalanced positioning of one's self.

Actually understanding reality is a very different scenario. When you understand "the left", and show it with understanding, then you'll have a leg to stand on in discussing it.

We all have our opinions. Whether they are realistic or not is judged by the light of reason. The fact that your country is off track is one thing--your interpretation on who to blame is about your personal interpretation and is about you.

republicanfan74

hippiemom wrote:

I go to see Pearl Jam. I expect that to include both music and politics, as it always has. I would have been very surprised if Ed hadn't taken advantage of the megaphone provided by VH1 to discuss his political views ... that would have been totally out of character for him. My question is, why would you expect Pearl Jam to be something different than they've always been?

I see you take your voting cues from your favorite performers. I realize to fan's like you their experts in this area. Please explain how calling bush a liar in any way contributed to any debate.
Thank god yourself and he are in the minority.

ryan198

republicanfan74 wrote:

I see you take your voting cues from your favorite performers. I realize to fan's like you their experts in this area. Please explain how calling bush a liar in any way contributed to any debate.
Thank god yourself and he are in the minority.

Just b/c hippiemom agrees with many of eddie's politics doesn't mean she takes her political cues from him, perhaps she has come to many similar conclusions. similarly how is eddie any different than rush, sean, anne, etc. they are performers too.

angelica

republicanfan74 wrote:

Thank god yourself and he are in the minority.

It sounds like you are acknowledging such a minority view. You sound thankful for it being minority in which case I'm hearing that you believe it has less power.

Does this mean you are acknowledging the power and the fallout the majority creates afterall?

hippiemom

republicanfan74 wrote:

I see you take your voting cues from your favorite performers. I realize to fan's like you their experts in this area. Please explain how calling bush a liar in any way contributed to any debate.
Thank god yourself and he are in the minority.

I'm curious as to where you get the idea that I take cues from Pearl Jam or anyone else. I expect to hear both music and politics from them, because that is what they do. Whether or not I agree on any given point is irrelevant. Whether or not Ed's choices about what to discuss are the same as my choices would be in that situation is irrelevant. Since the very beginning they have donated money to humanitarian and left-wing causes, there has been political content in their newsletters, they have played political benefits, they have written political lyrics, and their performances have included political comments. I would have to be delusional in order to go see them expecting anything else. My question to you was, why do you expect them to be something other than what they've always been?