Religion + Politics

cornnifer

Sexy2aFault wrote:

Why can't modern Christians follow this example?

)

many, many do. you just don't see them. The media refuses to show them, and you refuse to look.

El_Kabong

cornnifer wrote:

Apparently no one wishes to address my points. Here is what is frustrating. People REFUSE to let go of their "religious" right sterotype. A few weeks ago I posted an article highlighting a very left wing element of the Christian faith. There were 5 responses, three of which were from me. Yet someone can post, for example, an article about the idiot Pat Robertson claiming to leg press 2000 pounds, and people go on for pages and pages about Right wing fanatic Christians. We love our sterotypes, don't we. We cling to them, no matter how full of shit they are. Oh well, Storytellers is coming on...

i think a lot of it is b/c the nature of conservatives vs liberals...liberals are more open to others than conservatives generally are...the problem is labels and grouping...the conservative right has far more influence than any christian left. you descirbed it perfectly w/ your feelings on the hypocrisy in certain churches...i wouldn't put someone like you or hhkc in that category of 'the religious right'

Sexy2aFault

cornnifer wrote:

many, many do. you just don't see them. The media refuses to show them, and you refuse to look.

I am one of them Christians. I know they exist, I was talking to a specific group.

cornnifer

El_Kabong wrote:

i think a lot of it is b/c the nature of conservatives vs liberals...liberals are more open to others than conservatives generally are...the problem is labels and grouping...the conservative right has far more influence than any christian left. you descirbed it perfectly w/ your feelings on the hypocrisy in certain churches...i wouldn't put someone like you or hhkc in that category of 'the religious right'

Thank you for not putting me in that category. I don't belong there.

cornnifer

Sexy2aFault wrote:

I am one of them Christians. I know they exist, I was talking to a specific group.

My sincerest appologies.

Scratchin a Letter

Religion and politics don't mix. Thats what causes war. Particularly in the US, whether it was founded on xtian principles or not; its a country which celebrates itself on its multiculturalism and so on.

Bottom line, keep your religion to yourself. Don't try and make other people "see the light", they don't want to.

angelica

Scratchin a Letter wrote:

Religion and politics don't mix. Thats what causes war. Particularly in the US, whether it was founded on xtian principles or not; its a country which celebrates itself on its multiculturalism and so on.

Bottom line, keep your religion to yourself. Don't try and make other people "see the light", they don't want to.

I say that it's human ignorance and lack of respect that causes war. Religion and politics are merely a vehicle and a smokescreen.

PaperPlates

Our government was not founded on express Christian principles. Our country however, was.

El_Kabong wrote:

i think a lot of it is b/c the nature of conservatives vs liberals...liberals are more open to others than conservatives generally are...the problem is labels and grouping...the conservative right has far more influence than any christian left. you descirbed it perfectly w/ your feelings on the hypocrisy in certain churches...i wouldn't put someone like you or hhkc in that category of 'the religious right'

Ill let you know when I meet an open minded liberal.

Open mindedness isnt a liberal nor a conservative thing. Its a rare thing period. Calling yourself open minded doesnt make it so. And btw, not every conservative is religious. Im not.

angelica

PaperPlates wrote:

Open mindedness isnt a liberal nor a conservative thing. Its a rare thing period.

Very good.

It seems to me, as well, that if one is "liberal" or "conservative" one may not be as open-minded as they might think.

El_Kabong

PaperPlates wrote:

Our government was not founded on express Christian principles. Our country however, was.



Ill let you know when I meet an open minded liberal.

Open mindedness isnt a liberal nor a conservative thing. Its a rare thing period. Calling yourself open minded doesnt make it so. And btw, not every conservative is religious. Im not.

not sure hwy you quoted me for this...the very definition of conservative is to stay w/ the status quo, liberals are more open to things, just the way it goes

conservatism:
capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

angelica

El_Kabong wrote:

not sure hwy you quoted me for this...the very definition of conservative is to stay w/ the status quo, liberals are more open to things, just the way it goes

conservatism:
capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

One group may be more inclined to stick with tradition and one may be willing to embrace change and new ways more.

I don't think because one leans towards tradition that they are any less "open to others", which was what your original statement said.

I will agree that imo, "left-leaning" people seem to way more include a humanitarian bent. That by no means equates to openmindedness, though as humanitarian people have blindspots and biases like anyone, unless they consciously work to weed them out and to become open-minded. Open mindedness was the term PaperPlates mentioned, and I agreed it is rare--I find it's the rare person who rather than defending their flaws and biases, are open to growing. Letting go of giving one's self permission to justify lack of understanding is rare from what I see.

merlyn

no religion half a battle solved. what next. the whole thing sucks.

El_Kabong

angelica wrote:

One group may be more inclined to stick with tradition and one may be willing to embrace change and new ways more.

I don't think because one leans towards tradition that they are any less "open to others", which was what your original statement said.

as refering to religion (which is what i meant in my post which was a reply to cornifer discussing liberal religious ppl vs conservative religious ppl) i still believe that more liberal ppl would be more open to ppl of other religions than conservatives would be...this doesn't mean no conservative would be

angelica wrote:

I will agree that imo, "left-leaning" people seem to way more include a humanitarian bent. That by no means equates to openmindedness, though as humanitarian people have blindspots and biases like anyone, unless they consciously work to weed them out and to become open-minded. Open mindedness was the term PaperPlates mentioned, and I agreed it is rare--I find it's the rare person who rather than defending their flaws and biases, are open to growing. Letting go of giving one's self permission to justify lack of understanding is rare from what I see.

that is a whole nother subject and you get into the tricky waters of 'labels' and who is actually what...a lot of ppl think hillary is liberal but i wouldn't describe her as such

angelica

El_Kabong wrote:

as refering to religion (which is what i meant in my post which was a reply to cornifer discussing liberal religious ppl vs conservative religious ppl) i still believe that more liberal ppl would be more open to ppl of other religions than conservatives would be...this doesn't mean no conservative would be




that is a whole nother subject and you get into the tricky waters of 'labels' and who is actually what...a lot of ppl think hillary is liberal but i wouldn't describe her as such

You actually cover what I hear as the biggest bias from the "left" on this board, being religion, or should I say Christianity. And from what I gather, people justify that point as a valid bias, when I don't think it is valid to close our minds to understanding.

At the least, I'm thinking you must agree that left-leaning people are human and therefore have biases and blind spots. Or do you?

El_Kabong

angelica wrote:

You actually cover what I hear as the biggest bias from the "left" on this board, being religion, or should I say Christianity. And from what I gather, people justify that point as a valid bias, when I don't think it is valid to close our minds to understanding.

At the least, I'm thinking you must agree that left-leaning people are human and therefore have biases and blind spots. Or do you?

of course ppl have certain biases, that doesn't necessarily mean it would invalidate or color their judgement.

i'm not discussing if 'more liberal' ppl are more 'open-minded' in an overall sense (again, labels)...but, i think if you compare how ppl of differing religions are treated they would be treated nicer and more openly by ppl who are more 'liberal'.

there is a certain bias towards christianity and i can't speak for anyone but me...i don't automatically judge someone b/c they say they are christian or most of the other religions (excluding ones involving sacrifice) and when i deride someone and say something negative about a 'christian' it is not aimed at anyone other than those whose actions have stated that's how they are, not someone like cornifer or hhkc who considers himself a christian

ryan198

Where did Miller go? Did he cry himself to sleep b/c something Hannity and O'Reilly told him about conservatives of the past was actually a lie? I haven't seen him duck and cover over an argument for a long time.

WindNoSail

he still stands wrote:

Why is it that I am still hearing the phrase, "our country was founded on Christian principles." The bottom line is that in spite of Christian right attempts to rewrite history to make the founding fathers into Christians, little about their philosophy resembles that of Christianity. And yet our political leaders use this principle to gain a large amount of votes especially in the bible belt. And it most definitely has an influence on laws that are created and enforced. Why can't people see that Christianity is used to influence people's beliefs and values to whatever shape and form needed? I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Keep in mind that TJ's writings were written in the context of coming out of a religious and political governing authority. That doesn't mean that the govt should be limiting religion or its free excercise of, just that it should only ensure no establishment of religion within the govt.

You tagged it with the seperation of church and state which Jefferson did not write but rather a Federal judge (named Black I believe) who wrote an opinion adding those words in the 40's. What is interesting is that Black wrote the opinion supporting the reimbursement of travel funds to individuals for attending paroachial or religious schools, upholding a NJ law. His point was that it did not cause a breakdown of the 'wall of seperation of church and state' for the state to reimburse everyone, not just those attending public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education

hippiemom

WindNoSail wrote:

You tagged it with the seperation of church and state which Jefferson did not write but rather a Federal judge (named Black I believe) who wrote an opinion adding those words in the 40's. What is interesting is that Black wrote the opinion supporting the reimbursement of travel funds to individuals for attending paroachial or religious schools, upholding a NJ law. His point was that it did not cause a breakdown of the 'wall of seperation of church and state' for the state to reimburse everyone, not just those attending public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education

I think I misunderstood this part of your post ... you didn't mean to imply that Jefferson never used the phrase "wall of separation," did you? He certainly did use it, in the letter to the Danbury Baptists that he still stands posted. Justice Black merely quoted Jefferson in his opinion, stating "In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'"

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html

hippiemom

ryan198 wrote:

Where did Miller go? Did he cry himself to sleep b/c something Hannity and O'Reilly told him about conservatives of the past was actually a lie? I haven't seen him duck and cover over an argument for a long time.

Miller almost never responds to me. I must say, he was a lot friendlier in his left-leaning moderate incarnation on a board I used to hang out at a couple of years ago.

republicanfan74

I happen to be both a proud republican and pearl jam fan. I taped the storyteller show on vh1 on my dvr and just watched it. To my dissapoinment, Eddie's first comment was a typical uneducated, liberal-entertainer comment, I did not record the show to hear. Why can't actor's and singer's just do what we pay them to do, ENTERTAIN US!!!! If you want to express your political opinion's, do so at the appropriate time and venue.
A little advice for all entertainers out there, its not good business practice to alienate half your possible fan pool. It also dosen't make sense to work in the entertainment industry and be pro-choice. Since Roe became law you have lost 30,000,000 possible fans.
Just some thoughts.