Religion + Politics

he still stands

Why is it that I am still hearing the phrase, "our country was founded on Christian principles." The bottom line is that in spite of Christian right attempts to rewrite history to make the founding fathers into Christians, little about their philosophy resembles that of Christianity. And yet our political leaders use this principle to gain a large amount of votes especially in the bible belt. And it most definitely has an influence on laws that are created and enforced. Why can't people see that Christianity is used to influence people's beliefs and values to whatever shape and form needed? I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

angelica

he still stands wrote:

Why is it that I am still hearing the phrase, "our country was founded on Christian principles." The bottom line is that in spite of Christian right attempts to rewrite history to make the founding fathers into Christians, little about their philosophy resembles that of Christianity. And yet our political leaders use this principle to gain a large amount of votes especially in the bible belt. And it most definitely has an influence on laws that are created and enforced. Why can't people see that Christianity is used to influence people's beliefs and values to whatever shape and form needed? I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Unfortunately, many people believe authority blindly and don't see between the lines--the part that tells about the personal self-centered agendas of those who use religion as a tool for manipulation.

Because people are generally emotionally crippled, they are looking for any validation of their beliefs, and by this ignorance, are easily manipulated.

Good point, by the way (pointing out the history rewrite to support skewed agendas).

The quote you use indicates the words of a self-actualised human being, wtih insights into life, whereas the abuse of such ideals indicates small-minded-ego-agenda, and abuse of power.

surferdude

he still stands wrote:

I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

Religion is a belief system. How the hell are any if the topics you mentioned supposed to be debated without touching on the speaker's belief system. Just because someone's belief system is not a religious one does not means it should merit public attention while a religious set of beliefs should just be thrown by the wayside.

Try telling me about why (or why not) gay marriage should be allowed without touching on any sort of belief system. Now try it for abortion.

hippiemom

surferdude wrote:

Religion is a belief system. How the hell are any if the topics you mentioned supposed to be debated without touching on the speaker's belief system. Just because someone's belief system is not a religious one does not means it should merit public attention while a religious set of beliefs should just be thrown by the wayside.

Try telling me about why (or why not) gay marriage should be allowed without touching on any sort of belief system. Now try it for abortion.

What if my belief system is equal treatment under the law? That is a legitimate system for governments to use. Religion is not.

angelica

Abuse of religion is also quite different than honest sharing about one's religion or one's true view. The difference is within the intent. With some politicians, it's interesting to see them manipulate the issue. That is about the dark side, and no longer about religion.

cornnifer

he still stands wrote:

I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

O.k. Here are some thoughts. The mistake made by the "religious right" is that values issues can be broken down to a couple of hot issues such as abortion and gay marriage. The mistake YOU (and alot of other people) make is buying into it. The bottom line is that how poverty is dealt with is, in fact, a "religious" issue. Neglect of the environment is a "religious" issue, tax cuts for billionaires, social Darwinism, and unilateral preemptive war based on fabrications and lies, are all "religious" issues. Separation of church and state does not require the complete abolishment of moral and "religious" values from public debate. There is quite a history of socially progressive causes being not only supported by, but, at times, primarily driven by religious faith and evangelical leadership. Abolition, Women's suffrage, child labor laws and civil rights are all examples of this. Where would we be without Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his "religious values" ? He led one of the United States most significant and successful progressive movements from the pulpit with a Bible in his hands! What about, one of my all time favorite Christians, John Brown, whose Christian values led him to take up arms against the evil of slavery, and ultimately landed him at the end of a noose? ! The question, to me, isn't IF "religious" values should be utilized in the public square, but, rather HOW.

simpson,ay?

"The Founding Fathers made it very clear that they didn't want Judeo-Christian morality within ten city blocks of the law."

Josh Lyman

cornnifer

simpson,ay? wrote:

"The Founding Fathers made it very clear that they didn't want Judeo-Christian morality within ten city blocks of the law."

Josh Lyman

I think you take things a bit to far. Establishment of a state sponsored religion is quite different than banning "religious" morals from public discourse.

simpson,ay?

cornnifer wrote:

I think you take things a bit to far. Establishment of a state sponsored religion is quite different than banning "religious" morals from public discourse.

not me, fictional character josh lyman from the west wing. and i think the point is having a specific religion's morals is unconstitutional. religious morals as an all-inclusive group, perhaps.

cornnifer

simpson,ay? wrote:

not me, fictional character josh lyman from the west wing. and i think the point is having a specific religion's morals is unconstitutional. religious morals as an all-inclusive group, perhaps.

Well, alright then. Josh Lyman from the West Wing takes things a bit to far. And you quote him... Anyway, not to start an argument, but the point is separation of church and state does not mean banning Spiritually derived ideals and morals from public debate. There have been many very important socially progressive movements lead and supported by evangelicals inspired by their faith.

miller8966

This country was founded on religious principles, those being of a christian origin. Why do liberals only quote thomas jefferson and not more conservative revolutionaries like John Adams?

The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.

hippiemom

miller8966 wrote:

This country was founded on religious principles, those being of a christian origin. Why do liberals only quote thomas jefferson and not more conservative revolutionaries like John Adams?

The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.

You asked for it ....

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching." -- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry

"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents." -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." -- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes." -- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." -- John Adams

angelica

hippiemom wrote:

You asked for it ....

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching." -- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry

"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents." -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." -- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes." -- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." -- John Adams

Great work, hippiemom! I'm not American, and yet I love words that represent understanding of truth. Thanks for clarifying a thing or two.

simpson,ay?

hippiemom wrote:

You asked for it ....

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

"The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching." -- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry

"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents." -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." -- John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes." -- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." -- John Adams

wow...what a thorough domination of miller...nice.

cornnifer

Apparently no one wishes to address my points. Here is what is frustrating. People REFUSE to let go of their "religious" right sterotype. A few weeks ago I posted an article highlighting a very left wing element of the Christian faith. There were 5 responses, three of which were from me. Yet someone can post, for example, an article about the idiot Pat Robertson claiming to leg press 2000 pounds, and people go on for pages and pages about Right wing fanatic Christians. We love our sterotypes, don't we. We cling to them, no matter how full of shit they are. Oh well, Storytellers is coming on...

simpson,ay?

cornnifer wrote:

Apparently no one wishes to address my points. Here is what is frustrating. People REFUSE to let go of their "religious" right sterotype. A few weeks ago I posted an article highlighting a very left wing element of the Christian faith. There were 5 responses, three of which were from me. Yet someone can post, for example, an article about the idiot Pat Robertson claiming to leg press 2000 pounds, and people go on for pages and pages about Right wing fanatic Christians. We love our sterotypes, don't we. We cling to them, no matter how full of shit they are. Oh well, Storytellers is coming on...

i find it hard to let go of my own stereotype of the religious right. i am a christian, and although i am pro-choice, for example, i don't want anyone to have an abortion unless its for the mother's health. however, i generally despise christian politics, and that of people against abortion. i honestly find myself in the middle of my thinking, saying to myself, my god how i hate these people...despite having in essence the same beliefs, just differen topinions of the law. anyway, im not sure that's really relevent, but i do find it hard to let go of my stereotype of the religious right. its hard, but im working on it. and...wooooohoooooo storytellers!

angelica

cornnifer wrote:

Apparently no one wishes to address my points. Here is what is frustrating. People REFUSE to let go of their "religious" right sterotype. A few weeks ago I posted an article highlighting a very left wing element of the Christian faith. There were 5 responses, three of which were from me. Yet someone can post, for example, an article about the idiot Pat Robertson claiming to leg press 2000 pounds, and people go on for pages and pages about Right wing fanatic Christians. We love our sterotypes, don't we. We cling to them, no matter how full of shit they are. Oh well, Storytellers is coming on...

I feel that the point in this thread is very apt, especially when miller highlighted it, basically, by example. hippiemom showed some of the many distortions to a distorted view that clearly exists.

Abookamongstthemany

cornnifer wrote:

Apparently no one wishes to address my points. Here is what is frustrating. People REFUSE to let go of their "religious" right sterotype. A few weeks ago I posted an article highlighting a very left wing element of the Christian faith. There were 5 responses, three of which were from me. Yet someone can post, for example, an article about the idiot Pat Robertson claiming to leg press 2000 pounds, and people go on for pages and pages about Right wing fanatic Christians. We love our sterotypes, don't we. We cling to them, no matter how full of shit they are. Oh well, Storytellers is coming on...

I just think there are far more on the right who are religous or at least more who vote based on it. That's why they try to pander to them with gay marriage and abortion issues...bc they know there are so many out there to get votes from.

and thanks for reminding me about Storytellers.

cornnifer

simpson,ay? wrote:

i find it hard to let go of my own stereotype of the religious right. i am a christian, and although i am pro-choice, for example, i don't want anyone to have an abortion unless its for the mother's health. however, i generally despise christian politics, and that of people against abortion. i honestly find myself in the middle of my thinking, saying to myself, my god how i hate these people...despite having in essence the same beliefs, just differen topinions of the law. anyway, im not sure that's really relevent, but i do find it hard to let go of my stereotype of the religious right. its hard, but im working on it. and...wooooohoooooo storytellers!

Then we're not all that different, you and I. I am also a Christian with absolutely no love for the "Religious Right". It wasn't terribly long ago i had a discussion with my wife in which I described my growing contept for the church. My bitternes at the way I defend the faith against sterotyped atttacks, but, look around and see Christians behaving in what I see as a unChristlike manner that seems to perpetuate said stereotypes. I was, and am, totally fed up with the "religious right" and their hijacking and distortion of my faith in an attempt to push their fucked up agenda. Then I found Jim Wallis, the magazine he edits "sojourners", and his book "God's Politics". If you havn't read it, you must. This guy is one of my new champions.

So there's your assignment.

simpson,ay?

cornnifer wrote:

Then we're not all that different, you and I. I am also a Christian with absolutely no love for the "Religious Right". It wasn't terribly long ago i had a discussion with my wife in which I described my growing contept for the church. My bitternes at the way I defend the faith against sterotyped atttacks, but, look around and see Christians behaving in what I see as a unChristlike manner that seems to perpetuate said stereotypes. I was, and am, totally fed up with the "religious right" and their hijacking and distortion of my faith in an attempt to push their fucked up agenda. Then I found Jim Wallis, the magazine he edits "sojourners", and his book "God's Politics". If you havn't read it, you must. This guy is one of my new champions.

So there's your assignment.

well now that storytellers is over, i just might have to check into that...thanks for the recommendation!

Sexy2aFault

he still stands wrote:

Why is it that I am still hearing the phrase, "our country was founded on Christian principles." The bottom line is that in spite of Christian right attempts to rewrite history to make the founding fathers into Christians, little about their philosophy resembles that of Christianity. And yet our political leaders use this principle to gain a large amount of votes especially in the bible belt. And it most definitely has an influence on laws that are created and enforced. Why can't people see that Christianity is used to influence people's beliefs and values to whatever shape and form needed? I'm absolutely sick and tired of hearing arguments about gay marriage, abortion, and similar topics with religious as a foundation for someone's stance. Thoughts?

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

That is a fair point, To hi-jack a bit..... Jesus was neutral in the political element of his day... "pay back Ceasars things to Caesar.. but Gods things to God"..."My Kingdom is no part of this world..."...etc..etc... 1st century Christians likewise refused to serve in miliatary until the 3-4th century and looked suspiciously upon a Man-made Gov't.

Why can't modern Christians follow this example? Is it possible to use politcal force to to make your moral point...and still maintain that you are a Christian? If so, how? At what point was Jesus political?









(I've got soul, but I am not a soldier)