Washington State Atheist Sign Stolen

Collin

LikeAnOcean wrote:

So, if I'm agnostic, am I essentially an atheist?

I don't believe there is a god, but I can't rule out anything in an infinite universe.

Think about that. Infinite. A number the human mind cannot comprehend. Infinite number of possibilities. An infinite number of worlds. An infinite number of worlds identical to our own. Does the universe end and does space and time warp?

What if someone told you there was a god. No, two gods. No, an infinite number of gods.. or that we are "god", created of the stars, by the stars, part of the intuition of the universe as a whole..

I consider myself atheist because I don't believe there is a god, I see no evidence and basically no reason to even assume there is a god.

However, I have considered that there are an infinite number of possibilities and if there should be something out there, I think it'll be closer to Spinoza's god, which can be described as a force, it is an impersonal god, that doesn't need to be worshipped and has no will. It didn't not want to create man or the world, it just happened through 'it' or 'him'.

I don't like the term god in this sense because it's so far from the common interpretation of the word god. If god is a force that doesn't have anything to do with his creations on a personal level and it creates involuntarily... I see no point in worshipping it. It's like worshipping gravity.

So in conclusion, I don't believe in a god, and if I entertain the thought of a god it would be a god in the form of an impersonal, involuntary detached force, again sort of like gravity.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Collin wrote:

I agree, if you push your beliefs on others there will be a reaction. The christians pushed their beliefs on others, atheists reacted by presenting their view. It was not tolerated.

The nativity scene is just the same as a believer telling you about god, Jesus and the bible.

I don't buy that. I'm perfectly capable of seeing other people celebrating their beliefs without feeling like they're pushing it on me. The nativity scene might show people what they believe in, but they're not pushing it down your throat anymore than a sign advertising a sale is making you buy stuff.

Collin

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I don't buy that. I'm perfectly capable of seeing other people celebrating their beliefs without feeling like they're pushing it on me. The nativity scene might show people what they believe in, but they're not pushing it down your throat anymore than a sign advertising a sale is making you buy stuff.

I see your point, but it's a statement of belief, there can be a reaction. I think the majority of atheists would not have put up that sign, but it's not surprising that someone did. If you choose to 'celebrate' your beliefs in public you know you are confronting people with your beliefs. It's only logical that not everyone will believe the same thing as you and they might want to express their opinions.

Maybe 'pushing' isn't the right word, but then again it's not like they only put up a nativity scene. There's the nativity scene, god is mentioned on the money, discrimination against atheists, god in the pledge of allegiance, intolerance towards other groups (homosexuals), political influence (Bush "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.")

Danimal

Why do people care in what other's believe?

Mind ya fucking business and we'll get along just fine.

Speakers

Danimal wrote:

Why do people care in what other's believe?

Mind ya fucking business and we'll get along just fine.

Because it affects what happens to society. Bush's belief that it is god's will to save the people from Iraq has an impact on me.

If people did mind their own business and didn't affect other people, we would get along just fine...unfortunately that doesn't happen.

That is where agnosticism works. We don't know so don't act like you do.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Collin wrote:

I see your point, but it's a statement of belief, there can be a reaction. I think the majority of atheists would not have put up that sign, but it's not surprising that someone did. If you choose to 'celebrate' your beliefs in public you know you are confronting people with your beliefs. It's only logical that not everyone will believe the same thing as you and they might want to express their opinions.

Maybe 'pushing' isn't the right word, but then again it's not like they only put up a nativity scene. There's the nativity scene, god is mentioned on the money, discrimination against atheists, god in the pledge of allegiance, intolerance towards other groups (homosexuals), political influence (Bush "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.")

I'm not saying there aren't examples of one faith being pushed over another, or indeed, over a lack of faith. But in my opinion, that's even more proof that this particular demonstration was misplaced - there are far worse, and far more... assertive... cases of religious inequality than a nativity scene. For the Freedom From Religion group to target the nativity scene in this way just makes the atheist "movement" look kind of juvenile. If they had tried to celebrate the Winter Solstice without crapping all over religion, they'd look like reasonable people trying to celebrate their particular holiday. Now, they look like people who can only celebrate their holiday at the expense of religion - and that's the exact kind of exclusionary tactic they should be railing against.

It just seems to me that anyone who gets offended by relatively innocuous religious displays is probably, for lack of a better way of putting it, trying to get offended. I live in Ireland - sometimes it seems like I can barely move without seeing a crucifix, or some representation of Catholicism. But I don't feel like it's being rammed down my throat unless it's specifically telling me I'm wrong not to believe - otherwise, it's just people expressing what they believe, and I think they're entitled to that. It's when the Catholic Church is granted a "special position" in the Irish Constitution, or when Bush questions whether atheists are citizens that the real problem arises, and that's what people should be taking issue with.

jeffbr

Speakers wrote:

Because it affects what happens to society. Bush's belief that it is god's will to save the people from Iraq has an impact on me.

If people did mind their own business and didn't affect other people, we would get along just fine...unfortunately that doesn't happen.

That is where agnosticism works. We don't know so don't act like you do.

Yup. Bush read the Bible daily and used it for guidance throughout his presidency. Apparently that book led him wide of the mark.

That is why it is dangerous for people to base their lives and actions on mythologies. "Oh, it's God's will". "Whatever happens is God's plan." Blah, blah, blah.

iamica

jeffbr wrote:

Yup. Bush read the Bible daily and used it for guidance throughout his presidency. Apparently that book led him wide of the mark.

That is why it is dangerous for people to base their lives and actions on mythologies. "Oh, it's God's will". "Whatever happens is God's plan." Blah, blah, blah.

Please don't judge all of Christianity based on Bush. He did a lot of things that are very un-Christian indeed, and, believe it or not, there are a lot of Christians who don't support him.

Collin

iamica wrote:

Please don't judge all of Christianity based on Bush. He did a lot of things that are very un-Christian indeed, and, believe it or not, there are a lot of Christians who don't support him.

I don't know about jeffbr but I certainly don't judge all of christianity based on Bush. Christianity itself doesn't have the most christian history either.

That being said, I do many many christians are good people, who don't support Bush... but that doesn't change anything about the potential dangerous side of religion. History has taught us that religion has been a source of war and destruction. The violence is always justified, because everyone believes god is on their side.

And that's a point I like to stress. What is christian and what is un-christian? Your believes come from a book, the same book Bush consulted, many believers hear god speaking in their hearts, so did Bush.

I truly see no difference between Bush who says:

"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

and you, for example, who says it's not the christian way.

I always give the people who preach for peace and understanding and love the benefit of the doubt. But the truth is no believer knows god or what he is thinking, no one knows whether god talked to Bush or not, no one knows if god has appointed a new prophet or leader...