No thanks. Been there, done that too many times on this board. No matter what the facts are, you and others on this moral equivalency kick can't get it through your heads that there is a very conspicuous distinction between a sovereign state's right to defend itself from barbaric acts of terrorism against its civilians (read: Israel) and a group that is sworn to destroy that sovereign state by intentionally targeting its civilians (read: Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., etc.).
Agreed, you and many others have answered the question numerous times but these people refuse to accept the answers. They can keep asking why we don't see moral equivalence between the Hezbos and Israel but the answer won't change regardless of how many times they ask it. It's pointless to engage these people.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Agreed, you and many others have answered the question numerous times but these people refuse to accept the answers. They can keep asking why we don't see moral equivalence between the Hezbos and Israel but the answer won't change regardless of how many times they ask it. It's pointless to engage these people.
Infuriating, but it's like a car accident. I just can't stop myself from coming here to view the carnage.
A moral justification based on scale always collapses logically. For example, you cannot say killing is wrong but then suggest that killing 1 is good and killing 1000 is bad -- you've setup a contradiction. Invariably you end up with an "ends justify the means" argument and you'll be much closer to your enemy than you would ever care to admit.
Infuriating, but it's like a car accident. I just can't stop myself from coming here to view the carnage.
I hear ya. What's funny is that I started a (one, not 1000) thread asking what the left would do to prevent terrorist attacks in the future. Guess how many answers I recieved!?!
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
its much easier for us to rationalize suffering based on "right" and "wrong" ... it is much harder to look ourselves in the mirror when see what role we played in someone's death ...
Elitism: you look in the proverbial mirror and see what role we played in someone's death (whatever that means), while I see everything in terms of right and wrong.
Agreed, you and many others have answered the question numerous times but these people refuse to accept the answers. They can keep asking why we don't see moral equivalence between the Hezbos and Israel but the answer won't change regardless of how many times they ask it. It's pointless to engage these people.
What's the moral difference you see? I promise to ask you only once.
I hear ya. What's funny is that I started a (one, not 1000) thread asking what the left would do to prevent terrorist attacks in the future. Guess how many answers I recieved!?!
Probably none. I think I know the answer, though: find out the "root causes," talk to the terrorists about it, apologize to them, then kiss and make up.
A moral justification based on scale always collapses logically. For example, you cannot say killing is wrong but then suggest that killing 1 is good and killing 1000 is bad -- you've setup a contradiction. Invariably you end up with an "ends justify the means" argument and you'll be much closer to your enemy than you would ever care to admit.
You fail to see that my argument has zero to do with scale. If it were up to me, Israel's war would have been 100 times as intense, because force is all groups like Hezbollah and Hamas understand. Scale means nothing to me. Intention does. Again (why am I engaging in this nonsense?): Hezbollah and Hamas want to wipe Israel off the map, mostly because it's a Jewish state (WRONG). Israel, in fighting Hezbollah and Hamas, is trying to protect its citizens from unprovoked terrorist atrocities (RIGHT). Get it now?
Probably none. I think I know the answer, though: find out the "root causes," talk to the terrorists about it, apologize to them, then kiss and make up.
...
That's because this tit for tat killing has been working out so well for the past 6 decades, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
That's because this tit for tat killing has been working out so well for the past 6 decades, right?
"Tit for tat" is yet another leftist attempt at moral equivalence. Hamas, for example, blows up a Passover dinner for the sole purpose of murdering as many Jews as possible. Israel responds to this attack by targeting these terrorist scumbags but, alas, in doing so, innocent civilians are killed (gee, I wonder why, when Hamas, like Hezbollah, blends in with the civilians and even surrounds itself with children). Are these two acts the same? If your answer is "yes," there is something very wrong with you.
Probably none. I think I know the answer, though: find out the "root causes," talk to the terrorists about it, apologize to them, then kiss and make up.
Nice guess!
Don't forget blame America itself.
Funny, our government is to blame for the death of our own citizens either because a) we have an evil foreign policy or b) because George W Bush blew up the world trade center and fired a missle into the pentagon.
I wish these people would apply this logic to the death of Lebanese civilians and hold other governments and manipulative and radical groups like the Hezbos accountable. I won't hold my breath on that one though.
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
You fail to see that my argument has zero to do with scale. If it were up to me, Israel's war would have been 100 times as intense, because force is all groups like Hezbollah and Hamas understand.
Yes, force is all groups like Hezbollah and Hamas understand. But why would you want to play by their standards while at the same time decrying those standards?
Scale means nothing to me. Intention does.
Not from the footage I've seen. When you define the conflict as that of a "sovereign state" vs a "terrorist organization" you're talking about issues of scale, not of intent. Because the intent of both states and terrorists are equal: control over men. Furthermore, the means are the same, and you say so quite well above: force
Again (why am I engaging in this nonsense?): Hezbollah and Hamas want to wipe Israel off the map, mostly because it's a Jewish state (WRONG).
Yes. That is wrong.
Israel, in fighting Hezbollah and Hamas, is trying to protect its citizens from unprovoked terrorist atrocities (RIGHT).
That's right? Really? How many of those citizens have been thrown to their death via the very same force you advocate above? Furthermore, how many civilians have you killed in order to give the terrorist groups the exact same justification and defense you just named.
Probably none. I think I know the answer, though: find out the "root causes," talk to the terrorists about it, apologize to them, then kiss and make up.
If the end result is 'making up' then it sounds a lot better than the current so called 'solution' of bombing and killing to get people to stop hating you. You are only multiplying your problems. You don't put fire out by pouring gasoline on it. The only way to get rid of an enemy for him to cease to want to be your enemy.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
"Tit for tat" is yet another leftist attempt at moral equivalence. Hamas, for example, blows up a Passover dinner for the sole purpose of murdering as many Jews as possible. Israel responds to this attack by targeting these terrorist scumbags but, alas, in doing so, innocent civilians are killed (gee, I wonder why, when Hamas, like Hezbollah, blends in with the civilians and even surrounds itself with children). Are these two acts the same? If your answer is "yes," there is something very wrong with you.
...
That's because your viewpoint is that Israel is ALWAYS responding to an attack. The Passover dinner was in response to an Israeli missile atack on a 'suspected' terrorist that ended up killing a Palestinian family bedding down for the night.
Does one justify the other? NO. They continue to prolong the retaliations to the point where it doesn't matter who fire the first shot in 1946.
You fail to see anything wrong with Israel. I see BOTH of them as fucking assholes that continually kill each other for what? Fuck them both for acting like assholes.
Nothing will change until one of them finally gets tired of the killing and say, "Hey... what the fuck are we doing? When are we going to get tired of seeing our children killed? We need to talk."
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If the end result is 'making up' then it sounds a lot better than the current so called 'solution' of bombing and killing to get people to stop hating you. You are only multiplying your problems. You don't put fire out by pouring gasoline on it. The only way to get rid of an enemy for him to cease to want to be your enemy.
That wouldn't be the end result - I was being sarcastic. The sad fact is that there is no way for Israel to make its enemies cease wanting to be its enemy. Why? Because their goal is based on Islamic fundamentalism, which requires, in their minds, for Israel to be destroyed.
Agreed, you and many others have answered the question numerous times but these people refuse to accept the answers. They can keep asking why we don't see moral equivalence between the Hezbos and Israel but the answer won't change regardless of how many times they ask it. It's pointless to engage these people.
...
Here you go... Here's a suggestion to Israel:
If you are going to occupy the territiory that does not bellong to you... don't develop it for your own use. Try building it for the people who actually live there. Build them homes and schools and mosques and show them that you are a peaceful people. Provide them the security from the ones who'll try to enlist their kids to walk on to a city bus with a fucking bomb vest strapped to them. That might work a whole lot better than allowing your people to move into their land.
And as for the U.S.... try recognizing that Israel fucks up, too. Quit sucking their cocks and making up excuses for some of the fucked up shit they do over there.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Here you go... Here's a suggestion to Israel:
If you are going to occupy the territiory that does not bellong to you... don't develop it for your own use. Try building it for the people who actually live there. Build them homes and schools and mosques and show them that you are a peaceful people. Provide them the security from the ones who'll try to enlist their kids to walk on to a city bus with a fucking bomb vest strapped to them. That might work a whole lot better than allowing your people to move into their land.
And as for the U.S.... try recognizing that Israel fucks up, too. Quit sucking their cocks and making up excuses for some of the fucked up shit they do over there.
...
And you complain about our responses? Nice one, Coulter.
Yes, I'm Coulter because I completely disagree with you. Whatever. I'm pretty sick and tired of arguing the same thing over and over again. The audacity - Israel should build them homes and schools and mosques and provide them with security? An "argument" such as that deserves no response.
Yes, I'm Coulter because I completely disagree with you. Whatever. I'm pretty sick and tired of arguing the same thing over and over again. The audacity - Israel should build them homes and schools and mosques and provide them with security? An "argument" such as that deserves no response.
...
You are Ann Coulter because you dismissed a response without a counterpoint... the easy, idiot's escape.
Because THAT'S WHAT OCCUPYING FORCES ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. They are supposed to provide security in the occupied territory. Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank DO NOT BELONG TO ISRAEL. They (and YOU) need to read up on the guidelines set forth by the Geneva Convention in the treatment of people living in occupied territories. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
YES... ISRAEL... The OCCUPYING FORCE is responsibile for the welfare of the people in those occupied territories.
If they do not want that responsibility... then, they need to get the fuck out of them.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You support the creation of the evil that you despise so much...I am also sick of saying the same points over and over again...now how many more examples of failed military attempts to counter terrorism does the world need to see that it is complete losing strategy.....its a strategy that better's the so called enemy..funny the real terrorists out there are loving the actions of Israel and the USA...just furthers their own propaghanda BS that the West wants to kill them...regardless of it not being intentional....Israel and the USA are the single biggest recruiters for modern day terrorism...your actions help the the brainchild nuts in charge.....like i said before your countries need to win over the people...not besiege them with missles for something they had nothing to do with.....so simple but I think the fact is that HATE from both sides prevents this from occuring alas violence is seen as the key to victory....yeah the key to giving the terrorists more ground....
Your country will NEVER beat terrorism with its current policy.....and its unfortuate you neither take the time or thought to think of alternative ways to combat terror.....always eye for eye and the vicsous cycle turns again and it will remain that way regardless of what military campaign you run next.....
...
You are Ann Coulter because you dismissed a response without a counterpoint... the easy, idiot's escape.
Because THAT'S WHAT OCCUPYING FORCES ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. They are supposed to provide security in the occupied territory. Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank DO NOT BELONG TO ISRAEL. They (and YOU) need to read up on the guidelines set forth by the Geneva Convention in the treatment of people living in occupied territories. http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
YES... ISRAEL... The OCCUPYING FORCE is responsibile for the welfare of the people in those occupied territories.
If they do not want that responsibility... then, they need to get the fuck out of them.
see how easy this was? it's not that hard to understand.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The Geneva Convention does not say you have to build schools and hospitals. Furthermore it doesn't really apply when you are no longer occupying a territory.
The Geneva Convention does not say you have to build schools and hospitals. Furthermore it doesn't really apply when you are no longer occupying a territory.
Absolutely true. Also, Gaza and the West Bank do not qualify as "occupied territory" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention since those territories were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state.
You support the creation of the evil that you despise so much...I am also sick of saying the same points over and over again...now how many more examples of failed military attempts to counter terrorism does the world need to see that it is complete losing strategy.....its a strategy that better's the so called enemy..funny the real terrorists out there are loving the actions of Israel and the USA...just furthers their own propaghanda BS that the West wants to kill them...regardless of it not being intentional....Israel and the USA are the single biggest recruiters for modern day terrorism...your actions help the the brainchild nuts in charge.....like i said before your countries need to win over the people...not besiege them with missles for something they had nothing to do with.....so simple but I think the fact is that HATE from both sides prevents this from occuring alas violence is seen as the key to victory....yeah the key to giving the terrorists more ground....
Your country will NEVER beat terrorism with its current policy.....and its unfortuate you neither take the time or thought to think of alternative ways to combat terror.....always eye for eye and the vicsous cycle turns again and it will remain that way regardless of what military campaign you run next.....
see how easy this was? it's not that hard to understand.
...
The fucking guy always whines about how 'no one ever answers me' and blows off a response with... 'that's absurd'. Try looking at the fucking reasons why people are killing themselves in order to inflict casualties on your people... that's a great fucking place to start. And quit treating other people's land as your own and recognize that you are the hostile military force in their home. Try to reduce that hostility by showing your humanity in the face of their dissent instead of always showing them the barrel of your gun.
But, as long as you believe that everything you do is justified and everything they do has no reason... then, the killing continues.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
and its unfortuate you neither take the time or thought to think of alternative ways to combat terror
Israel has already tried those alternative ways - negotiation, "land for peace," etc. etc. What did they get in return? Massive onslaughts of terror, because Palestinian terror organizations viewed it as capitulation; a sign of weakness.
Comments
Agreed, you and many others have answered the question numerous times but these people refuse to accept the answers. They can keep asking why we don't see moral equivalence between the Hezbos and Israel but the answer won't change regardless of how many times they ask it. It's pointless to engage these people.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Infuriating, but it's like a car accident. I just can't stop myself from coming here to view the carnage.
A moral justification based on scale always collapses logically. For example, you cannot say killing is wrong but then suggest that killing 1 is good and killing 1000 is bad -- you've setup a contradiction. Invariably you end up with an "ends justify the means" argument and you'll be much closer to your enemy than you would ever care to admit.
I hear ya. What's funny is that I started a (one, not 1000) thread asking what the left would do to prevent terrorist attacks in the future. Guess how many answers I recieved!?!
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Elitism: you look in the proverbial mirror and see what role we played in someone's death (whatever that means), while I see everything in terms of right and wrong.
What's the moral difference you see? I promise to ask you only once.
Probably none. I think I know the answer, though: find out the "root causes," talk to the terrorists about it, apologize to them, then kiss and make up.
You fail to see that my argument has zero to do with scale. If it were up to me, Israel's war would have been 100 times as intense, because force is all groups like Hezbollah and Hamas understand. Scale means nothing to me. Intention does. Again (why am I engaging in this nonsense?): Hezbollah and Hamas want to wipe Israel off the map, mostly because it's a Jewish state (WRONG). Israel, in fighting Hezbollah and Hamas, is trying to protect its citizens from unprovoked terrorist atrocities (RIGHT). Get it now?
That's because this tit for tat killing has been working out so well for the past 6 decades, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
"Tit for tat" is yet another leftist attempt at moral equivalence. Hamas, for example, blows up a Passover dinner for the sole purpose of murdering as many Jews as possible. Israel responds to this attack by targeting these terrorist scumbags but, alas, in doing so, innocent civilians are killed (gee, I wonder why, when Hamas, like Hezbollah, blends in with the civilians and even surrounds itself with children). Are these two acts the same? If your answer is "yes," there is something very wrong with you.
Nice guess!
Don't forget blame America itself.
Funny, our government is to blame for the death of our own citizens either because a) we have an evil foreign policy or b) because George W Bush blew up the world trade center and fired a missle into the pentagon.
I wish these people would apply this logic to the death of Lebanese civilians and hold other governments and manipulative and radical groups like the Hezbos accountable. I won't hold my breath on that one though.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Yes, force is all groups like Hezbollah and Hamas understand. But why would you want to play by their standards while at the same time decrying those standards?
Not from the footage I've seen. When you define the conflict as that of a "sovereign state" vs a "terrorist organization" you're talking about issues of scale, not of intent. Because the intent of both states and terrorists are equal: control over men. Furthermore, the means are the same, and you say so quite well above: force
Yes. That is wrong.
That's right? Really? How many of those citizens have been thrown to their death via the very same force you advocate above? Furthermore, how many civilians have you killed in order to give the terrorist groups the exact same justification and defense you just named.
No. Do you?
If the end result is 'making up' then it sounds a lot better than the current so called 'solution' of bombing and killing to get people to stop hating you. You are only multiplying your problems. You don't put fire out by pouring gasoline on it. The only way to get rid of an enemy for him to cease to want to be your enemy.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's because your viewpoint is that Israel is ALWAYS responding to an attack. The Passover dinner was in response to an Israeli missile atack on a 'suspected' terrorist that ended up killing a Palestinian family bedding down for the night.
Does one justify the other? NO. They continue to prolong the retaliations to the point where it doesn't matter who fire the first shot in 1946.
You fail to see anything wrong with Israel. I see BOTH of them as fucking assholes that continually kill each other for what? Fuck them both for acting like assholes.
Nothing will change until one of them finally gets tired of the killing and say, "Hey... what the fuck are we doing? When are we going to get tired of seeing our children killed? We need to talk."
Hail, Hail!!!
That wouldn't be the end result - I was being sarcastic. The sad fact is that there is no way for Israel to make its enemies cease wanting to be its enemy. Why? Because their goal is based on Islamic fundamentalism, which requires, in their minds, for Israel to be destroyed.
Here you go... Here's a suggestion to Israel:
If you are going to occupy the territiory that does not bellong to you... don't develop it for your own use. Try building it for the people who actually live there. Build them homes and schools and mosques and show them that you are a peaceful people. Provide them the security from the ones who'll try to enlist their kids to walk on to a city bus with a fucking bomb vest strapped to them. That might work a whole lot better than allowing your people to move into their land.
And as for the U.S.... try recognizing that Israel fucks up, too. Quit sucking their cocks and making up excuses for some of the fucked up shit they do over there.
Hail, Hail!!!
Ugggh. This board is unbelievable.
And you complain about our responses? Nice one, Coulter.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes, I'm Coulter because I completely disagree with you. Whatever. I'm pretty sick and tired of arguing the same thing over and over again. The audacity - Israel should build them homes and schools and mosques and provide them with security? An "argument" such as that deserves no response.
Well done. However, it does deserve a simple response:
"I have no obligation to build you a school in order to bribe you into letting me live my life."
That works too.
You are Ann Coulter because you dismissed a response without a counterpoint... the easy, idiot's escape.
Because THAT'S WHAT OCCUPYING FORCES ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. They are supposed to provide security in the occupied territory. Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank DO NOT BELONG TO ISRAEL. They (and YOU) need to read up on the guidelines set forth by the Geneva Convention in the treatment of people living in occupied territories.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm
YES... ISRAEL... The OCCUPYING FORCE is responsibile for the welfare of the people in those occupied territories.
If they do not want that responsibility... then, they need to get the fuck out of them.
Hail, Hail!!!
You support the creation of the evil that you despise so much...I am also sick of saying the same points over and over again...now how many more examples of failed military attempts to counter terrorism does the world need to see that it is complete losing strategy.....its a strategy that better's the so called enemy..funny the real terrorists out there are loving the actions of Israel and the USA...just furthers their own propaghanda BS that the West wants to kill them...regardless of it not being intentional....Israel and the USA are the single biggest recruiters for modern day terrorism...your actions help the the brainchild nuts in charge.....like i said before your countries need to win over the people...not besiege them with missles for something they had nothing to do with.....so simple but I think the fact is that HATE from both sides prevents this from occuring alas violence is seen as the key to victory....yeah the key to giving the terrorists more ground....
Your country will NEVER beat terrorism with its current policy.....and its unfortuate you neither take the time or thought to think of alternative ways to combat terror.....always eye for eye and the vicsous cycle turns again and it will remain that way regardless of what military campaign you run next.....
see how easy this was? it's not that hard to understand.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Absolutely true. Also, Gaza and the West Bank do not qualify as "occupied territory" within the meaning of the Geneva Convention since those territories were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state.
Minus the personal attacks, a great post.
What personal attack...I never said anything to jsand that was an attack.....I attacked his countries foreign policy...but that is hardly personal....
The fucking guy always whines about how 'no one ever answers me' and blows off a response with... 'that's absurd'. Try looking at the fucking reasons why people are killing themselves in order to inflict casualties on your people... that's a great fucking place to start. And quit treating other people's land as your own and recognize that you are the hostile military force in their home. Try to reduce that hostility by showing your humanity in the face of their dissent instead of always showing them the barrel of your gun.
But, as long as you believe that everything you do is justified and everything they do has no reason... then, the killing continues.
Hail, Hail!!!
Israel has already tried those alternative ways - negotiation, "land for peace," etc. etc. What did they get in return? Massive onslaughts of terror, because Palestinian terror organizations viewed it as capitulation; a sign of weakness.