Gas Prices

NCfan

The Illinoisemakers wrote:

No i can't tell you why. How many people live in Brazil? How developed is their economy compared to ours?

I don't know about Oil companies waiting till the last minute to switch to the alternative. I imagine that it will take upwards of fifteen years to switch out all of our gasoline driven engines for something else. I think we'll see a gradual transition from one to the other. Too fast and many will be left behind, too slow and the oil/motor campanies are going to lose too much money. I think a great step in the right direction is the increase in hybrid cars we are seeing. I know that the next car I buy will be a hybrid, hopefully they have a nice midsize 4x4 truck by then.

The population of Brazil is 186,112,794. It is a fairly industrialized country. Check out this article.

Dumb as We Wanna Be
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: September 20, 2006

I asked Dr. Jose Goldemberg, secretary for the environment for Sao Paulo State and a pioneer of Brazil's ethanol industry, the obvious question: Is the fact that the U.S. has imposed a 54-cents-a-gallon tariff to prevent Americans from importing sugar ethanol from Brazil 'just stupid or really stupid.'

Thanks to pressure from Midwest farmers and agribusinesses, who want to protect the U.S. corn ethanol industry from competition from Brazilian sugar ethanol, we have imposed a stiff tariff to keep it out. We do this even though Brazilian sugar ethanol provides eight times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it, while American corn ethanol provides only 1.3 times the energy of the fossil fuel used to make it. We do this even though sugar ethanol reduces greenhouses gases more than corn ethanol. And we do this even though sugar cane ethanol can easily be grown in poor tropical countries in Africa or the Caribbean, and could actually help alleviate their poverty.

Yes, you read all this right. We tax imported sugar ethanol, which could finance our poor friends, but we don't tax imported crude oil, which definitely finances our rich enemies. We'd rather power anti-Americans with our energy purchases than promote antipoverty.

'It's really stupid,' answered Dr. Goldemberg.

If I seem upset about this, I am. Development and environmental experts have long searched for environmentally sustainable ways to alleviate rural poverty - especially for people who live in places like Brazil, where there is a constant temptation to log the Amazon. Sure, ecotourism and rain forest soap are nice, but they never really scale. As a result, rural people in Brazil are always tempted go back to logging or farming sensitive areas.

Ethanol from sugar cane could be a scalable, sustainable alternative - if we are smart and get rid of silly tariffs, and if Brazil is smart and starts thinking right now about how to expand its sugar cane biofuel industry without harming the environment.

The good news is that sugar cane doesn't require irrigation and can't grow in much of the Amazon, because it is too wet. So if the Brazilian sugar industry does realize its plan to grow from 15 million to 25 million acres over the next few years, it need not threaten the Amazon.

However, sugar cane farms are located mostly in south-central Brazil, around Sao Paulo, and along the northeast coast, on land that was carved out of drier areas of the Atlantic rain forest, which has more different species of plants and animals per acre than the Amazon. Less than 7 percent of the total Atlantic rain forest remains - thanks to sugar, coffee, orange plantations and cattle grazing.

I flew in a helicopter over the region near Sao Paulo, and what I saw was not pretty: mansions being carved from forested hillsides near the city, rivers that have silted because of logging right down to the banks, and wide swaths of forest that have been cleared and will never return.

'It makes you weep,' said Gustavo Fonseca, my traveling companion, a Brazilian and the executive vice president of Conservation International. 'What I see here is a totally human dominated system in which most of the biodiversity is gone.'

As demand for sugar ethanol rises - and that is a good thing for Brazil and the developing world, said Fonseca, 'we have to make sure that the expansion is done in a planned way.'

Over the past five years, the Amazon has lost 7,700 square miles a year, most of it for cattle grazing, soybean farming and palm oil. A similar expansion for sugar ethanol could destroy the cerrado, the Brazilian savannah, another incredibly species-rich area, and the best place in Brazil to grow more sugar.

A proposal is floating around the Brazilian government for a major expansion of the sugar industry, far beyond even the industry's plans. No wonder environmental activists are holding a conference in Germany this fall about the impact of biofuels. I could see some groups one day calling for an ethanol boycott - a la genetically modified foods - if they feel biofuels are raping the environment.

We have the tools to resolve these conflicts. We can map the lands that need protection for their biodiversity or the environmental benefits they provide rural communities. But sugar farmers, governments and environmentalists need to sit down early - like now - to identify those lands and commit the money needed to protect them. Otherwise, we will have a fight over every acre, and sugar ethanol will never realize its potential. That would be really, really stupid.

SundaySilence

jlew24asu wrote:

I apologize, I didnt intend to coming off as harsh. I am a kinda passionate about this subject cuz I do it for a living. (no I dont work for oil co's, I work in the trading markets, particularly oil and others.) it bothers me when people chime in and blame the government for high (or in this case low) oil prices. you not one of them, which is good. the things you mentioned really dont play too much of a factor on the price of oil. some, yes. but not very significant. when the companies make annoucements, like the ones you mnetioned, the price of oil might move up a dollar or less which translates into pennies at the pump. the change will not be sustained however due to so many other factors. OPEC has about 100x times more power then the oil companies. and as proven today, they do not give a fuck about who is in office. for some reason, people dont believe in the laws of supply and demand. sorry about being harsh. no hard feelings I hope

Beyond traditional supply and demand, oil prices can be manipulated in the speculative markets. At the earnest request of Enron and other large energy traders deregulation was slipped into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, by the government. So Enron could cause blackouts in california and profit from them. And similar manipulation can occur in the oil speculative markets. As NCfan noted earlier, activity in the speculative oil markets has added $20 to the price of a barrel of oil.

jlew24asu

SundaySilence wrote:

Beyond traditional supply and demand, oil prices can be manipulated in the speculative markets. At the earnest request of Enron and other large energy traders deregulation was slipped into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, by the government. So Enron could cause blackouts in california and profit from them. And similar manipulation can occur in the oil speculative markets. As NCfan noted earlier, activity in the speculative oil markets has added $20 to the price of a barrel of oil.

speculative traders dont work for the government. the carry all the risk themselves of the trades they make. thankfully the government makes laws prohibitting these traders from cornering markets and abusing the system such as the enron boys.

Pacomc79

NCfan wrote:

Does anyone else find it astonishing that the price of gas has plummeted right before a mid-term election?

When prices skyrocketed and people started to seriously call for alternative fuels, then all of a sudden production goes up and price comes back down.

This is total bullshit. Fuck our corrupt ass government officials and corporate bigwigs who are fucking our country, environment and ultimately the world.

I don't think I'm going to vote anymore becuase it doesn't matter who you elect these days, they owe somebody big time for putting up the hundreds of millions it takes to win office.

Let's change the political system - we need more than one party and campaign finance reform in the worst way!!!!!!! Fuck! KLJASDHIA&S%(Df67y

as one who works in the industry (transportation).... it has most to do with consumer winter habits, and then a lot to do with the outages and subsequent repairs of refineries in the gulf and BP's little snafu up in Alaska. Oh and then the big deal over in the Persian Gulf region too. All of that added up to the futures market skyrocketing along with the price of crude and that led to higher prices.

so yeah as much as I agree that the political class needs turnover, this dosen't really have anything to do with them as is quite often the case.

my2hands

NCfan wrote:

Does anyone else find it astonishing that the price of gas has plummeted right before a mid-term election?

When prices skyrocketed and people started to seriously call for alternative fuels, then all of a sudden production goes up and price comes back down.

This is total bullshit. Fuck our corrupt ass government officials and corporate bigwigs who are fucking our country, environment and ultimately the world.

I don't think I'm going to vote anymore becuase it doesn't matter who you elect these days, they owe somebody big time for putting up the hundreds of millions it takes to win office.

Let's change the political system - we need more than one party and campaign finance reform in the worst way!!!!!!! Fuck! KLJASDHIA&S%(Df67y

we dont seem to agree very often, but i am glad we agree on the big picture

the gas price drop is no coincidence... and our governement and elite corporate masters are fucking everybody and every thing for more power and $

binauralsounds

NCfan wrote:

Does anyone else find it astonishing that the price of gas has plummeted right before a mid-term election?

When prices skyrocketed and people started to seriously call for alternative fuels, then all of a sudden production goes up and price comes back down.

This is total bullshit. Fuck our corrupt ass government officials and corporate bigwigs who are fucking our country, environment and ultimately the world.

I don't think I'm going to vote anymore becuase it doesn't matter who you elect these days, they owe somebody big time for putting up the hundreds of millions it takes to win office.

Let's change the political system - we need more than one party and campaign finance reform in the worst way!!!!!!! Fuck! KLJASDHIA&S%(Df67y

Add this to the list of no hurricanes this year. Pretty ironic during a mid term, there were no hurricanes.
Dam this administration is one magical bitch!

jlew24asu

my2hands wrote:

we dont seem to agree very often, but i am glad we agree on the big picture

the gas price drop is no coincidence... and our governement and elite corporate masters are fucking everybody and every thing for more power and $

its so sad you think this. it really is. once again, please read clearly no matter what your personal beliefs are, THE US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL.

supply and demand (people just like you) and OPEC do.

sonicreducer

jlew24asu wrote:

its so sad you think this. it really is. once again, please read clearly no matter what your personal beliefs are, THE US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL.

supply and demand (people just like you) and OPEC do.

with no alternative fuel source, the demand is there and will be there. if that is true, the supply can be controlled; or say, the price of the supply,... it's called corruption and it's everywhere. money and power can turn a good man's heart black.

jlew24asu

sonicreducer wrote:

with no alternative fuel source, the demand is there and will be there. if that is true, the supply can be controlled; or say, the price of the supply,... it's called corruption and it's everywhere. money and power can turn a good man's heart black.

yes, the supply is controlled from OPEC. they supply 40% of oil to the world. last week they decided to cut production to raise the price. wouldnt that hurt the republicans during this election time? if you want to believe corruption is everywhere fine. that has nothing to do with the government being able to control the price of oil. they dont.

inmytree

jlew24asu wrote:

its so sad you think this. it really is. once again, please read clearly no matter what your personal beliefs are, THE US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL.

supply and demand (people just like you) and OPEC do.

let's say you are 100% correct, let's say the US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL....

I would contend, while the price itself is not controled, supply can be, and has been manipulated, thus changing the price...and those who do the manipulating of supplies may or may not have ties to the US gov't...

binauralsounds

inmytree wrote:

let's say you are 100% correct, let's say the US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL....

I would contend, while the price itself is not controled, supply can be, and has been manipulated, thus changing the price...and those who do the manipulating of supplies may or may not have ties to the US gov't...

oyy vay

inmytree

binauralsounds wrote:

oyy vay

and you came back, why...?

jlew24asu

inmytree wrote:

let's say you are 100% correct, let's say the US GOVERNMENT DOES NOT CONTROL THE PRICE OF OIL....

I would contend, while the price itself is not controled, supply can be, and has been manipulated, thus changing the price...and those who do the manipulating of supplies may or may not have ties to the US gov't...

OPEC currently is raising the price of oil by cutting supply. are they trying to make republicans richer or hurt them during this election time? if its not one thing its the other. people only make arguments trying to make the government look bad. I guess that happens when you truly hate someone (bush).

price goes up = more money for republicans
price goes down = more votes for republicans becuase gas prices are low.


how bout this guys. OPEC is only concerned about making THEMSELVES richer so they can build another palace while their people stave. lets leave the US governemnt out of this.

Milestone

jlew24asu wrote:

if you want to believe corruption is everywhere fine. that has nothing to do with the government being able to control the price of oil. they dont.

You are right.

The large oil corporations (who depend on republicans being in office) are the ones that control the prices.

Your next smart-guy comment will be "What makes you think oil companies depend on Republicans being in office"?

My reply: tax breaks, lax environmental laws, and foreign policy that has a heavy hand in the middle east.

inmytree

jlew24asu wrote:

OPEC currently is raising the price of oil by cutting supply. are they trying to make republicans richer or hurt them during this election time? if its not one thing its the other. people only make arguments trying to make the government look bad. I guess that happens when you truly hate someone (bush).

price goes up = more money for republicans
price goes down = more votes for republicans becuase gas prices are low.


how bout this guys. OPEC is only concerned about making THEMSELVES richer so they can build another palace while their people stave. lets leave the US governemnt out of this.

yeah, yeah...I'm bashing bush again...blinded by hate, yet again...

forgive me for being skeptical of the powers that be, be it bush, congress (both parties), and OPEC...

unlike you, I don't follow blindly, I like to question..

our current gov't has done nothing to show they are trustworthy...with wmd's and lack there of, warrentless wiretaps, hiding facts about a child predator, cheney meeting with energy execs behind closed doors, abramoff, and I'm sure there are a couple more...again, sorry for being skeptical...

jlew24asu

inmytree wrote:

yeah, yeah...I'm bashing bush again...blinded by hate, yet again...

forgive me for being skeptical of the powers that be, be it bush, congress (both parties), and OPEC...

unlike you, I don't follow blindly, I like to question..

our current gov't has done nothing to show they are trustworthy...with wmd's and lack there of, warrentless wiretaps, hiding facts about a child predator, cheney meeting with energy execs behind closed doors, abramoff, and I'm sure there are a couple more...again, sorry for being skeptical...

im not following blindly. unlike you, I just happen to know how the oil market works.

inmytree

jlew24asu wrote:

im not following blindly. unlike you, I just happen to know how the oil market works.

really...?

Milestone

jlew24asu wrote:

im not following blindly. unlike you, I just happen to know how the oil market works.

but obviously you are lacking knowledge of campaign finance......hence you not seeing the connection betweed oil prices and the need to keep Republicans in office.

jlew24asu

Milestone wrote:

The large oil corporations (who depend on republicans being in office) are the ones that control the prices.

really? oil companies sell gasoline based on the price of oil. they buy oil and refine it. if the price of oil is $20 then gas prices would be $1.00 a gallon. guess what the price of oil isnt $20. its $60. why is it that price? because of republicans right?

your comment is so ridiculous. I guess the oil companies should just close up shop in 08 then right? if a democrat wins they are doomed.

jeffbr

Milestone wrote:

but obviously you are lacking knowledge of campaign finance......hence you not seeing the connection betweed oil prices and the need to keep Republicans in office.

How does OPEC fit into your model?