I think there's all kinds of people paying other people money to develop all kinds of things that are not published in medical journals or made available to the public.
you know, I don't think there is. v+developing durgs is way too hard. Most big corporations get one new drug maybe every few years, and the bigegst of all, Roche gets about 2 per year, which is huge compared to all teh others.
I think you need to think harder about your consipracy theories before you subscribe. JUst cos a story is convincing, does not mean that it is true. I thkn in this case, you are all very keen to believe that Hicks is being mistrated, and are just jumping on the bandwagon, without thinking or knowing too much.
you know, I don't think there is. v+developing durgs is way too hard. Most big corporations get one new drug maybe every few years, and the bigegst of all, Roche gets about 2 per year, which is huge compared to all teh others.
I think you need to think harder about your consipracy theories before you subscribe. JUst cos a story is convincing, does not mean that it is true. I thkn in this case, you are all very keen to believe that Hicks is being mistrated, and are just jumping on the bandwagon, without thinking or knowing too much.
Big companies develop drugs for mass consumption paying full awareness to side effects. I don't think the army cares much about what they administer to terrorists behind closed doors in order to get the desired result...seeing as beatings, and electrocution are commonplace.
If I was him I'd want a blood test done to find out how polluted I was, but I think that's unlikely where he's at right now. There are people in this world who develop mind altering drugs etc... without the barriers of ethics and corporate responsibility as their main objectives.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
you know, I don't think there is. v+developing durgs is way too hard. Most big corporations get one new drug maybe every few years, and the bigegst of all, Roche gets about 2 per year, which is huge compared to all teh others.
I think you need to think harder about your consipracy theories before you subscribe. JUst cos a story is convincing, does not mean that it is true. I thkn in this case, you are all very keen to believe that Hicks is being mistrated, and are just jumping on the bandwagon, without thinking or knowing too much.
Oh I think I know plenty of pharmacology thank you very much !!!!!
All kinds of things cross borders and seem to materialize and in other countries. I doubt they are all registered and controlled substances.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
All kinds of things cross borders and seem to materialize and in other countries. I doubt they are all registered and controlled substances.
Thing is, they don't need some weird wonderful drug. It's pretty easy to adapt comonplace stuff, especially anaesthetic drugs to disinhibit people and get them to spill. Ask anyone who has worked in an operatigin theatre. Just a littel bit of Thiopentone or propofol mixed with a touch of midazolam, and people giggle and gabble. It can be pretty funny.
Thing is, they don't need some weird wonderful drug. It's pretty easy to adapt comonplace stuff, especially anaesthetic drugs to disinhibit people and get them to spill. Ask anyone who has worked in an operatigin theatre. Just a littel bit of Thiopentone or propofol mixed with a touch of midazolam, and people giggle and gabble. It can be pretty funny.
I like giggling and gabbling. Can you get me some?
This is fabricaated crap. There is no medication that will last for three weeks in effect. Pretending to be dazed and confused is probably a good strategy for Hicks, to prepare to be stupid and forgetful in a witness box.
While in principal innocence before guilt is preferred, they found this guy in Afganistan, remember? Afganistan. They didn't drag him out of his home in Australia. He was living in Afganistan. there are only two possible explanations for that, he was either a deep cover spy pretending to be a terrorist, or he was trainng and working with and for terorists. The Taliban are the same guys who oppress the crap out of women there and would do that to women everywhere.
No-one thinks the Yanks are nice for the treatment of the detainees at
I'd say there are more than just two possible explanations for him being in Afganistan. . . Anway all that may be true, but I think you're kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not he's guilty. Keeping someone in a maximum security prison for five years without charge in violation of international laws is deeply hypocritical when its done by a country that pretends to stand for justice and righteousness.
And on the subject of treatment of women under the taliban etc, I'd suggest that anyone that wants to get a better understanding read 'The places in between' by Rory Stewart.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
I'd say there are more than just two possible explanations for him being in Afganistan. . . Anway all that may be true, but I think you're kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not he's guilty. Keeping someone in a maximum security prison for five years without charge in violation of international laws is deeply hypocritical when its done by a country that pretends to stand for justice and righteousness.
And on the subject of treatment of women under the taliban etc, I'd suggest that anyone that wants to get a better understanding read 'The places in between' by Rory Stewart.
Yeah, but that wasn't teh point of the article you posted was it. JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ? I'd like to hear some more plausible explanations if there are more to be had. Or is it possible that he really was hanging with terrorists ?
I like giggling and gabbling. Can you get me some?
No, drugs like that are only sold to peple who are licensed to use em, and need to be given carefully. People do muck around with ketamine though, and get away with it, cos it does not take away your ability to breathe or protect your airway, even in anaesthetci doses.
I'd say there are more than just two possible explanations for him being in Afganistan. . . Anway all that may be true, but.......... It doesn't matter whether or not he's guilty. Keeping someone in a maximum security prison for five years without charge in violation of international laws is deeply hypocritical when its done by a country that pretends to stand for justice and righteousness.
And on the subject of treatment of women under the taliban etc, I'd suggest that anyone that wants to get a better understanding read 'The places in between' by Rory Stewart.
I agree Scott. The man is clearly a scapegoat. And if justice was truly being served, then they should free him immediately they find him guilty or not.
And our governments handling of the situation has been a disgrace.
And if we really want to get into terrorism and those who have perpetrated it, then I think maybe a couple of weeks in Guntanemo is a great idea for the President. No need to charge him. I find his bombing in the name of offensive. Surely that should be enough to get him a stay? It seems it was enough for David.
Thanks for the book suggestion Scott. I'll add it to my homework list.
Yeah, but that wasn't teh point of the article you posted was it. JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ? I'd like to hear some more plausible explanations if there are more to be had. Or is it possible that he really was hanging with terrorists ?
The point of posting the article was just to highlight the ongoing injustice of the treatment of David Hicks. Of course it was possible, even likely, that he was 'hanging with terrorists'. I agree with you that he probably is guilty of something, and the seppos probably wouldn't still have him there if they didn't think he'd been up to something. But (and this is a big but), that doesn't make what they're doing excuseable.
Jeanie, that book is a really good read. I was written by a crazy scotsman who travelled on foot from Herat to Kabul just weeks after the Taliban were ousted by the yanks. He'd already walked across Pakistan, Nepal, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Afganistan was the last leg of his oddessy. Its an interesting insight into the way of life of the local people.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
The point of posting the article was just to highlight the ongoing injustice of the treatment of David Hicks. Of course it was possible, even likely, that he was 'hanging with terrorists'. I agree with you that he probably is guilty of something, and the seppos probably wouldn't still have him there if they didn't think he'd been up to something. But (and this is a big but), that doesn't make what they're doing excuseable.
Jeanie, that book is a really good read. I was written by a crazy scotsman who travelled on foot from Herat to Kabul just weeks after the Taliban were ousted by the yanks. He'd already walked across Pakistan, Nepal, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Afganistan was the last leg of his oddessy. Its an interesting insight into the way of life of the local people.
Hey, I agree that fromally charging and either legitimising his imprisonment or freeing him is a desirable and due.
I was voicing my opinion that I think the "forced sedation prior to hearing charges" story is a beat up, which is really separate issue. Legit medical treatment of his stomach complaint is hardly inhumane or constituting abuse, and to imply that it is, is at best cheap, and at worst, blatant lying. Sounds like we can find agreement in the middle ground again, funny that !!
Yeah, but that wasn't teh point of the article you posted was it. JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ? I'd like to hear some more plausible explanations if there are more to be had. Or is it possible that he really was hanging with terrorists ?
white folk lucy? just who do you define as white folk? are you speaking of caucasian people? are you aware that race is a social construct devise for nothing more than exclusion and that regardless of whether an afghani is uzbeg, hazara, tajik or even nuristani, they are as white as a so called white australian like david hicks, or you even. and if he is guilty only by association then it is you that is going to have to come up with a more plausible explanation. the onus is on his accusers to prove his guilt.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Methinks lucy has too much faith in the government. I'm not suggesting that they did develop this new drug- I wouldn't know- but to say outright that they wouldn't, because it's the domain of private companies?
I wonder exactly what it is that military scientists do.
The question of whether he was hanging with terrorists is surely a moot point now, after 5 years of solitary confinement without trial. The guy isn't exactly going to be coming back to a completely free life if and when he returns home.
Amongst his supporters, the most common suggestion is that he was outside of Afghanistan, saw what happened to NYC on 11/9, felt this was tied to the people he was previously fighting with, and thought this wasn't what he was there for, and so returned to Afghanistan to pack his bags.
There's really no one who can prove or disprove this. Of course he was in Afghanistan, and he did fight for the Taliban. This was never in dispute.
The only point that remains is the Howard government's gutlessness in acquiescing to the Bush administration and the US military's mishandling of this and other similarly long term cases. That Howard and Ruddock were both practicing lawyers prior to entry into parliament just makes their stance that much more hypocritical. On this, Robert Richter couldn't be more on the point in his op-ed pience.
white folk lucy? just who do you define as white folk? are you speaking of caucasian people? are you aware that race is a social construct devise for nothing more than exclusion and that regardless of whether an afghani is uzbeg, hazara, tajik or even nuristani, they are as white as a so called white australian like david hicks, or you even. and if he is guilty only by association then it is you that is going to have to come up with a more plausible explanation. the onus is on his accusers to prove his guilt.
Loose use of language by a poor typist in a hurry. I was using this to refer to Caucasian or European type (or Asian, cos they white too, never seen a yellow one yet) residents who could not pass as locals. I was trying to make the point that he must have been accepted by the locals to be surviving there. There are plenty of countries where non-locals can just be visiting or touring or passing through or on innocent business but I don't think Afghanistan at that time was one of them. I note the "Mad Scotsman" referred to above waited until after the Yanks invaded before he tried his jolly jaunt.
I read an interesting book by James Michener years ago called "Caravans", about a trip across the Silk Road, and non-locals were shot on site by traditionalists back then. Fiction, of sourse, but possibly well researched fiction.
I'mm gonna disagree that race is a social construct devised for exclusion. Humans have been intensely tribal forever and continue to be so. Racism is endemic to all cultures and certainly not the exclusive province of WMA's. It is a natural expression of xenophobia and while we rightly work hard to not have it her in Australia, it is only multi-cultures like here, UK, US etc that do. Go visit a monoculture country and you might find things differnt. I was in Italy being treated like shit cos they mistook me for German when the One Nation thing blew up a few years ago. It was nice to come back to happy multi-culture, let me tell you.
I am mainly expressing that I don't have any sympathy for David Hicks.
Lots of people don't sympathise with Hicks. Understanding that a gross injustice is being carried out by his continued detention has very little to do with sympathy.
....
I'mm gonna disagree that race is a social construct devised for exclusion. Humans have been intensely tribal forever and continue to be so. Racism is endemic to all cultures and certainly not the exclusive province of WMA's. It is a natural expression of xenophobia and while we rightly work hard to not have it her in Australia, it is only multi-cultures like here, UK, US etc that do. Go visit a monoculture country and you might find things differnt. I was in Italy being treated like shit cos they mistook me for German when the One Nation thing blew up a few years ago. It was nice to come back to happy multi-culture, let me tell you.
and that is your prerogative lucy. i think however that you mistake racism for prejuduce through racialisation of ethnicity. when you were abused by italians mistakenly for being german, that is not racism. it is bigotry drawn along ethnic lines. but yes i do agree, it is certainly an expression of xenophobia.
the fact that you mentioned that humans have been intensely tribal and that they continue to be so, lends more credence to my argument about racism being a social construct and exclusionary than to yours that it isn't.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
and that is your prerogative lucy. i think however that you mistake racism for prejuduce through racialisation of ethnicity. when you were abused by italians mistakenly for being german, that is not racism. it is bigotry drawn along ethnic lines. but yes i do agree, it is certainly an expression of xenophobia.
the fact that you mentioned that humans have been intensely tribal and that they continue to be so, lends more credence to my argument about racism being a social construct and exclusionary than to yours that it isn't.
I guess that what I was getting at is thet to me "construct" suggests a deliberate idea, rather than something which is intrinsic to our nature. Racism has certainly been used in that way, and continues to be in lots of places, but I was disagreeing with the idea that it is only ever that.
I was not trying to introduce the idea of racism to this discussion in any way, shape or form. Racism was not in any way relevant to this discussion. I think your distinction between racism and ethnic discriination is a pretty bluury idea. There really is no difference to me. Skin colour, as you have correctly noted, ios very subjective and purely academic.
Back on topic though, the story is still a beat up.
The deliberate distortion of the truth to manipulate peoples emotions reminds me of a certain "we have information that a certain dictator is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction" statement.
Methinks lucy has too much faith in the government. I'm not suggesting that they did develop this new drug- I wouldn't know- but to say outright that they wouldn't, because it's the domain of private companies?
I wonder exactly what it is that military scientists do.
The question of whether he was hanging with terrorists is surely a moot point now, after 5 years of solitary confinement without trial. The guy isn't exactly going to be coming back to a completely free life if and when he returns home.
Amongst his supporters, the most common suggestion is that he was outside of Afghanistan, saw what happened to NYC on 11/9, felt this was tied to the people he was previously fighting with, and thought this wasn't what he was there for, and so returned to Afghanistan to pack his bags.
There's really no one who can prove or disprove this. Of course he was in Afghanistan, and he did fight for the Taliban. This was never in dispute.
The only point that remains is the Howard government's gutlessness in acquiescing to the Bush administration and the US military's mishandling of this and other similarly long term cases. That Howard and Ruddock were both practicing lawyers prior to entry into parliament just makes their stance that much more hypocritical. On this, Robert Richter couldn't be more on the point in his op-ed pience.
I guess that what I was getting at is thet to me "construct" suggests a deliberate idea, rather than something which is intrinsic to our nature. Racism has certainly been used in that way, and continues to be in lots of places, but I was disagreeing with the idea that it is only ever that.
I was not trying to introduce the idea of racism to this discussion in any way, shape or form. Racism was not in any way relevant to this discussion. I think your distinction between racism and ethnic discriination is a pretty bluury idea. There really is no difference to me. Skin colour, as you have correctly noted, ios very subjective and purely academic.
Back on topic though, the story is still a beat up.
The deliberate distortion of the truth to manipulate peoples emotions reminds me of a certain "we have information that a certain dictator is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction" statement.
well yuo did when you made the commment below.
JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ?
have you ever watched little kids from different backgrounds play together? why do you think they do so? cause they want to, right? now why is it that those children may grow up and form opinions based on skin colour or ethnic backgrounds and thus no longer associate with people from backgrounds that as children they were quite happy to play with; that they may even form prejudicial opinions about. if that isn't the result of social construct i dont know what is.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
The point of posting the article was just to highlight the ongoing injustice of the treatment of David Hicks. Of course it was possible, even likely, that he was 'hanging with terrorists'. I agree with you that he probably is guilty of something, and the seppos probably wouldn't still have him there if they didn't think he'd been up to something. But (and this is a big but), that doesn't make what they're doing excuseable.
Jeanie, that book is a really good read. I was written by a crazy scotsman who travelled on foot from Herat to Kabul just weeks after the Taliban were ousted by the yanks. He'd already walked across Pakistan, Nepal, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Afganistan was the last leg of his oddessy. Its an interesting insight into the way of life of the local people.
Sounds like it scott!! I'll have to get my hands on a copy. I love a good adventure! Last one that I read that was set in this area and included Afghanistan was Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts. I can't rave enough about that book!! Not to everyone's taste but I love it.
JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ?
have you ever watched little kids from different backgrounds play together? why do you think they do so? cause they want to, right? now why is it that those children may grow up and form opinions based on skin colour or ethnic backgrounds and thus no longer associate with people from backgrounds that as children they were quite happy to play with; that they may even form prejudicial opinions about. if that isn't the result of social construct i dont know what is.
How about I re-phrase it to "resident aliens", will that make you happier ??
Little kids grow into adolescenets, and start jostling for any advantage they can get, then they will form cliques or tribes. The definitions of those tribes will be based on what works for them. Tribal boundaries are defined and enforced by shared customs and rituals. While the little kiddies from different races who grew up together continue to share these things, they will continue to belong to the same tribes. If that sharing stops, then they will no longer belong to the same tribe. The same thing happens wiht a bunch of kids from the same culture who grow up. Once upon a time you were mates with Little Johnny from next door, but then he joined the emo tribe, and now you don't see him anymore.
All of which is kinda interesting, none of which is relevant. I was commenting on the likelihood of Afghani's tolerating outsiders, but you seem to have turned this around to be about my attitudes toward race, which I gotta tell you, I do not appreciate.
BTW, none of this is relevant to the fact that the story at the top of the thread is still a beat-up and a deliberate distortion of the truth, and I notice you have conveniently avoided responding to my comments on the similarity bewtween this BS and Bush's.
Edited cos I left out half the tribal stuff initially cos I was too lazy to put it in, then changed my mind.
This is fabricaated crap. There is no medication that will last for three weeks in effect. Pretending to be dazed and confused is probably a good strategy for Hicks, to prepare to be stupid and forgetful in a witness box.
While in principal innocence before guilt is preferred, they found this guy in Afganistan, remember? Afganistan. They didn't drag him out of his home in Australia. He was living in Afganistan. there are only two possible explanations for that, he was either a deep cover spy pretending to be a terrorist, or he was trainng and working with and for terorists. The Taliban are the same guys who oppress the crap out of women there and would do that to women everywhere.
No-one thinks the Yanks are nice for the treatment of the detainees at Gitmo, but remember how scared and pissed we all were when those planes flew into the WTC and the Taliban was threatening the world at large, boasting about how many of us hey would kill .
The Taliban started this fight, don't let them complain about the outcome.
Mind you if Russia had not invaded Afganisstan, the political vacuum that allowed the rise of the Taliban would not have existed, so blame them.
Osama said he wanted to force change on us all
and he has. now we have no right to a fair trial at all. arrest me call me a terrorist, then throw me in jail for FIVE FARKEN YEARS.
yeah MR president these terrorists wont change our way of life will they.
give the guy a fair trial, his rights are the same as ours.
I will hang him myself if found guilty, but he ( and we ) deserve the right to be judged by our peers. Not someone who has been trained to hate and kill terrorists
and about blaming Russia - it was the yanks who armed the mujahadeen.
Lots of people don't sympathise with Hicks. Understanding that a gross injustice is being carried out by his continued detention has very little to do with sympathy.
Osama said he wanted to force change on us all
and he has. now we have no right to a fair trial at all. arrest me call me a terrorist, then throw me in jail for FIVE FARKEN YEARS.
yeah MR president these terrorists wont change our way of life will they.
give the guy a fair trial, his rights are the same as ours.
I will hang him myself if found guilty, but he ( and we ) deserve the right to be judged by our peers. Not someone who has been trained to hate and kill terrorists
and about blaming Russia - it was the yanks who armed the mujahadeen.
Yawn..................... if you read all of my posts, I think you will find that I agree that trial and sentence should be done. I have not made any post supporting his further detention wihout trial. I don't like the changes brought about in our societies any more than you do, including the ones your have outlined. I particularly detest airport security, for example. I just don't happen to like fabricated crap and sensational journalism on any subject. People here seem to think it's OK on stuff they agree with but not with stuff they don't agree with. I don't like it at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My comments about Russia are still valid BTW. They initiated the conflict and political disintegration in this area. Mind you, I could have had a slash at Germany and France as well, both nations with abysmal track records with war, foreign interference (Nigeria, anyone ?) and occupation by force ( still happening in New Caledonia), not to mention setting off nukes in other people's back yards but I couldn't be stuffed.
My comments were always aimed at the original post. Still a beat-up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still a beat-up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/
MR Morey is a us serviceman. he was instructed to represent D Hicks. Why would he beat this up.
not to mention setting off nukes in other people's back yards -
What of the US and its use of depleted uranium in Iraq and afganistan. Oh and add the UK
foreign interference-
vietnam for starters, Chile, Iran etc.
They initiated the conflict and political disintegration in this area.-
they were actually invited in by a puppet regime in Afganistan, much like the puppet regime in Iraq or the new Afganistan who beg for The US to send more troops.
best to have clean hands before pointing fingers.
Comments
you know, I don't think there is. v+developing durgs is way too hard. Most big corporations get one new drug maybe every few years, and the bigegst of all, Roche gets about 2 per year, which is huge compared to all teh others.
I think you need to think harder about your consipracy theories before you subscribe. JUst cos a story is convincing, does not mean that it is true. I thkn in this case, you are all very keen to believe that Hicks is being mistrated, and are just jumping on the bandwagon, without thinking or knowing too much.
Big companies develop drugs for mass consumption paying full awareness to side effects. I don't think the army cares much about what they administer to terrorists behind closed doors in order to get the desired result...seeing as beatings, and electrocution are commonplace.
If I was him I'd want a blood test done to find out how polluted I was, but I think that's unlikely where he's at right now. There are people in this world who develop mind altering drugs etc... without the barriers of ethics and corporate responsibility as their main objectives.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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You and me both.
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Oh I think I know plenty of pharmacology thank you very much !!!!!
All kinds of things cross borders and seem to materialize and in other countries. I doubt they are all registered and controlled substances.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Thing is, they don't need some weird wonderful drug. It's pretty easy to adapt comonplace stuff, especially anaesthetic drugs to disinhibit people and get them to spill. Ask anyone who has worked in an operatigin theatre. Just a littel bit of Thiopentone or propofol mixed with a touch of midazolam, and people giggle and gabble. It can be pretty funny.
I like giggling and gabbling. Can you get me some?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I'd say there are more than just two possible explanations for him being in Afganistan. . . Anway all that may be true, but I think you're kind of missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not he's guilty. Keeping someone in a maximum security prison for five years without charge in violation of international laws is deeply hypocritical when its done by a country that pretends to stand for justice and righteousness.
And on the subject of treatment of women under the taliban etc, I'd suggest that anyone that wants to get a better understanding read 'The places in between' by Rory Stewart.
-C Addison
Yeah, but that wasn't teh point of the article you posted was it. JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ? I'd like to hear some more plausible explanations if there are more to be had. Or is it possible that he really was hanging with terrorists ?
No, drugs like that are only sold to peple who are licensed to use em, and need to be given carefully. People do muck around with ketamine though, and get away with it, cos it does not take away your ability to breathe or protect your airway, even in anaesthetci doses.
I agree Scott. The man is clearly a scapegoat. And if justice was truly being served, then they should free him immediately they find him guilty or not.
And our governments handling of the situation has been a disgrace.
And if we really want to get into terrorism and those who have perpetrated it, then I think maybe a couple of weeks in Guntanemo is a great idea for the President. No need to charge him. I find his bombing in the name of offensive. Surely that should be enough to get him a stay? It seems it was enough for David.
Thanks for the book suggestion Scott. I'll add it to my homework list.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
The point of posting the article was just to highlight the ongoing injustice of the treatment of David Hicks. Of course it was possible, even likely, that he was 'hanging with terrorists'. I agree with you that he probably is guilty of something, and the seppos probably wouldn't still have him there if they didn't think he'd been up to something. But (and this is a big but), that doesn't make what they're doing excuseable.
Jeanie, that book is a really good read. I was written by a crazy scotsman who travelled on foot from Herat to Kabul just weeks after the Taliban were ousted by the yanks. He'd already walked across Pakistan, Nepal, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Afganistan was the last leg of his oddessy. Its an interesting insight into the way of life of the local people.
-C Addison
Hey, I agree that fromally charging and either legitimising his imprisonment or freeing him is a desirable and due.
I was voicing my opinion that I think the "forced sedation prior to hearing charges" story is a beat up, which is really separate issue. Legit medical treatment of his stomach complaint is hardly inhumane or constituting abuse, and to imply that it is, is at best cheap, and at worst, blatant lying. Sounds like we can find agreement in the middle ground again, funny that !!
white folk lucy? just who do you define as white folk? are you speaking of caucasian people? are you aware that race is a social construct devise for nothing more than exclusion and that regardless of whether an afghani is uzbeg, hazara, tajik or even nuristani, they are as white as a so called white australian like david hicks, or you even. and if he is guilty only by association then it is you that is going to have to come up with a more plausible explanation. the onus is on his accusers to prove his guilt.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I wonder exactly what it is that military scientists do.
The question of whether he was hanging with terrorists is surely a moot point now, after 5 years of solitary confinement without trial. The guy isn't exactly going to be coming back to a completely free life if and when he returns home.
Amongst his supporters, the most common suggestion is that he was outside of Afghanistan, saw what happened to NYC on 11/9, felt this was tied to the people he was previously fighting with, and thought this wasn't what he was there for, and so returned to Afghanistan to pack his bags.
There's really no one who can prove or disprove this. Of course he was in Afghanistan, and he did fight for the Taliban. This was never in dispute.
The only point that remains is the Howard government's gutlessness in acquiescing to the Bush administration and the US military's mishandling of this and other similarly long term cases. That Howard and Ruddock were both practicing lawyers prior to entry into parliament just makes their stance that much more hypocritical. On this, Robert Richter couldn't be more on the point in his op-ed pience.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/hypocrites-breaking-our-law-at-every-turn/2007/02/17/1171405502477.html
Loose use of language by a poor typist in a hurry. I was using this to refer to Caucasian or European type (or Asian, cos they white too, never seen a yellow one yet) residents who could not pass as locals. I was trying to make the point that he must have been accepted by the locals to be surviving there. There are plenty of countries where non-locals can just be visiting or touring or passing through or on innocent business but I don't think Afghanistan at that time was one of them. I note the "Mad Scotsman" referred to above waited until after the Yanks invaded before he tried his jolly jaunt.
I read an interesting book by James Michener years ago called "Caravans", about a trip across the Silk Road, and non-locals were shot on site by traditionalists back then. Fiction, of sourse, but possibly well researched fiction.
I'mm gonna disagree that race is a social construct devised for exclusion. Humans have been intensely tribal forever and continue to be so. Racism is endemic to all cultures and certainly not the exclusive province of WMA's. It is a natural expression of xenophobia and while we rightly work hard to not have it her in Australia, it is only multi-cultures like here, UK, US etc that do. Go visit a monoculture country and you might find things differnt. I was in Italy being treated like shit cos they mistook me for German when the One Nation thing blew up a few years ago. It was nice to come back to happy multi-culture, let me tell you.
You should. He has been held for 5 years without charge. I don't understand anyway how can you charge some one for being a soldier?
and that is your prerogative lucy. i think however that you mistake racism for prejuduce through racialisation of ethnicity. when you were abused by italians mistakenly for being german, that is not racism. it is bigotry drawn along ethnic lines. but yes i do agree, it is certainly an expression of xenophobia.
the fact that you mentioned that humans have been intensely tribal and that they continue to be so, lends more credence to my argument about racism being a social construct and exclusionary than to yours that it isn't.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
And what an amazing 8000 posts they've been girl!!!
Congratulations!!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I guess that what I was getting at is thet to me "construct" suggests a deliberate idea, rather than something which is intrinsic to our nature. Racism has certainly been used in that way, and continues to be in lots of places, but I was disagreeing with the idea that it is only ever that.
I was not trying to introduce the idea of racism to this discussion in any way, shape or form. Racism was not in any way relevant to this discussion. I think your distinction between racism and ethnic discriination is a pretty bluury idea. There really is no difference to me. Skin colour, as you have correctly noted, ios very subjective and purely academic.
Back on topic though, the story is still a beat up.
The deliberate distortion of the truth to manipulate peoples emotions reminds me of a certain "we have information that a certain dictator is stockpiling weapons of mass destruction" statement.
Thanks Hinny. That was a really interesting read. And I agree with all you have said.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
well yuo did when you made the commment below.
JUst how many white folk wus living in sunny ol' Afganistan at that time ?
have you ever watched little kids from different backgrounds play together? why do you think they do so? cause they want to, right? now why is it that those children may grow up and form opinions based on skin colour or ethnic backgrounds and thus no longer associate with people from backgrounds that as children they were quite happy to play with; that they may even form prejudicial opinions about. if that isn't the result of social construct i dont know what is.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Sounds like it scott!! I'll have to get my hands on a copy. I love a good adventure!
And I agree with you about David.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
How about I re-phrase it to "resident aliens", will that make you happier ??
Little kids grow into adolescenets, and start jostling for any advantage they can get, then they will form cliques or tribes. The definitions of those tribes will be based on what works for them. Tribal boundaries are defined and enforced by shared customs and rituals. While the little kiddies from different races who grew up together continue to share these things, they will continue to belong to the same tribes. If that sharing stops, then they will no longer belong to the same tribe. The same thing happens wiht a bunch of kids from the same culture who grow up. Once upon a time you were mates with Little Johnny from next door, but then he joined the emo tribe, and now you don't see him anymore.
All of which is kinda interesting, none of which is relevant. I was commenting on the likelihood of Afghani's tolerating outsiders, but you seem to have turned this around to be about my attitudes toward race, which I gotta tell you, I do not appreciate.
BTW, none of this is relevant to the fact that the story at the top of the thread is still a beat-up and a deliberate distortion of the truth, and I notice you have conveniently avoided responding to my comments on the similarity bewtween this BS and Bush's.
Edited cos I left out half the tribal stuff initially cos I was too lazy to put it in, then changed my mind.
and he has. now we have no right to a fair trial at all. arrest me call me a terrorist, then throw me in jail for FIVE FARKEN YEARS.
yeah MR president these terrorists wont change our way of life will they.
give the guy a fair trial, his rights are the same as ours.
I will hang him myself if found guilty, but he ( and we ) deserve the right to be judged by our peers. Not someone who has been trained to hate and kill terrorists
and about blaming Russia - it was the yanks who armed the mujahadeen.
my thoughts to a tee
Yawn..................... if you read all of my posts, I think you will find that I agree that trial and sentence should be done. I have not made any post supporting his further detention wihout trial. I don't like the changes brought about in our societies any more than you do, including the ones your have outlined. I particularly detest airport security, for example. I just don't happen to like fabricated crap and sensational journalism on any subject. People here seem to think it's OK on stuff they agree with but not with stuff they don't agree with. I don't like it at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My comments about Russia are still valid BTW. They initiated the conflict and political disintegration in this area. Mind you, I could have had a slash at Germany and France as well, both nations with abysmal track records with war, foreign interference (Nigeria, anyone ?) and occupation by force ( still happening in New Caledonia), not to mention setting off nukes in other people's back yards but I couldn't be stuffed.
My comments were always aimed at the original post. Still a beat-up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MR Morey is a us serviceman. he was instructed to represent D Hicks. Why would he beat this up.
not to mention setting off nukes in other people's back yards -
What of the US and its use of depleted uranium in Iraq and afganistan. Oh and add the UK
foreign interference-
vietnam for starters, Chile, Iran etc.
They initiated the conflict and political disintegration in this area.-
they were actually invited in by a puppet regime in Afganistan, much like the puppet regime in Iraq or the new Afganistan who beg for The US to send more troops.
best to have clean hands before pointing fingers.