Free-will simplified: The Point of Power

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

Lol. That sounds kind of funny.

I know you recognize yourself as human. The essence of determinism is that you cannot escape that fact. That's such a tiny piece of the puzzle, though. To me.

Maybe that's why determinism comes up lacking to me. I see that we can escape the fact of our humanness, when we realize that level of our experience is the illusion--the experience. It's a projection of consciousness, which is what we actually are at our base nature.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

At this point, I believe in the separation and I think there is a difference from inside us and outside us--I believe what I became attached to in language--what I identified with, instead of continuing to understand ourselves as consciousness having these experiences. And I project my own shadow from within outside of us. And I believe these illusions I project to be real. I face our worst nightmares outside of us.

That's why as I segue to the spirit of humanity from the ego of humanity in terms of consciousness, I will start to open to the idea that the evil I are seeing outside is my own unresolved darkness inside.

This is why I encourage people to give up their addictions and imbalances, and get on the evolutionary track. The imbalances we hold block us from resolving the dichotomy of self vs. other.

The "crazy" part of it all...what we are so afraid of facing within are the illusions we've accumulated within. The only thing to fear truly is the fear itself. As we start to face and demystify the illusions we were taught, we realize the problem is misperception, and it's from within, and it has nothing at all to do with the illusions we project into the world.

I see.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

Maybe that's why determinism comes up lacking to me. I see that we can escape the fact of our humanness, when we realize that level of our experience is the illusion--the experience. It's a projection of consciousness, which is what we actually are at our base nature.

No. Determinism is true that we cannot escape our human.

Ahnimus

gue_barium wrote:

Do you call Einstein a genius? And if "yes", why?

He had the IQ of a genius which is the best measurement we have.

gue_barium

Ahnimus wrote:

He had the IQ of a genius which is the best measurement we have.

Einstein never took an IQ test.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Ahnimus wrote:

No it doesn't.

If you look for free-will, you will find it many places; indeterminism, environment, regular choice. But it's not really there. It's an illusion.

Our environment - our external infrastructure, from town planning to roads and running water - are effects caused by what Althusser called a lived ideology. Ideology is more than abstract concepts in words, it's all around us, in the very structure of our surroundings and the way we interact with our environment to survive. Our beliefs are structured in our surroundings. For example, roads and seafaring routes mean expansion and control, as well as communication. This belief in the interdependence of community and environment has likely been the way since the agricultural revolution, if not before. It's certainly promoted in fascist literature, more than in other discourses.

But I've a question: if lived ideology is something that can be challenged via revolutionary change, and if theoretically we could re-organise our sense of environment and community, would you see it as social evolution, as something natural? For example, it's incorrect to say that the progression from feudalism to capitalism, or from agriculture to industrialism (which utterly altered environments), was something unavoidable. The dominant classes might try and naturalise these developments in pseudo-Darwinian or organic lingo, but there was always a conflict of interests more complex and unpredictable than some kind of model of game theory might suggest.

To deny the will is to descend into a dangerous nihilism that only accepts the most vulgar of data. One denies many of the essentialist premises of individualist humanism, and applauds what is promoted as the inevitability of fascism.

gue_barium

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Our environment - our external infrastructure, from town planning to roads and running water - are effects caused by what Althusser called a lived ideology. Ideology is more than abstract concepts in words, it's all around us, in the very structure of our surroundings and the way we interact with our environment to survive. Our beliefs are structured in our surroundings. For example, roads and seafaring routes mean expansion and control, as well as communication. This belief in the interdependence of community and environment has likely been the way since the agricultural revolution, if not before. It's certainly promoted in fascist literature, more than in other discourses.

But I've a question: if lived ideology is something that can be challenged via revolutionary change, and if theoretically we could re-organise our sense of environment and community, would you see it as social evolution, as something natural? For example, it's incorrect to say that the progression from feudalism to capitalism, or from agriculture to industrialism (which utterly altered environments), was something unavoidable. The dominant classes might try and naturalise these developments in pseudo-Darwinian or organic lingo, but there was always a conflict of interests more complex and unpredictable than some kind of model of game theory might suggest.

To deny the will is to descend into a dangerous nihilism that only accepts the most vulgar of data. One denies many of the essentialist premises of individualist humanism, and applauds what is promoted as the inevitability of fascism.

Is there a siamese cat on your shoulder?

FinsburyParkCarrots

No chrome horses here. :cool:

gue_barium

Here is a good write-up on IQ.

http://www.audiblox2000.com/dyslexia_dyslexic/dyslexia014.htm

...Some recent thinkers…[have affirmed] that an individual's intelligence is a fixed quantity, a quantity that cannot be increased. We must protest and react against this brutal pessimism; we must try to demonstrate that it is founded on nothing...

gue_barium

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

No chrome horses here. :cool:

Understood.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

He had the IQ of a genius which is the best measurement we have.

Ahnimus, where do you think intelligence comes from, in the causal chain?

Ahnimus

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Our environment - our external infrastructure, from town planning to roads and running water - are effects caused by what Althusser called a lived ideology. Ideology is more than abstract concepts in words, it's all around us, in the very structure of our surroundings and the way we interact with our environment to survive. Our beliefs are structured in our surroundings. For example, roads and seafaring routes mean expansion and control, as well as communication. This belief in the interdependence of community and environment has likely been the way since the agricultural revolution, if not before. It's certainly promoted in fascist literature, more than in other discourses.

But I've a question: if lived ideology is something that can be challenged via revolutionary change, and if theoretically we could re-organise our sense of environment and community, would you see it as social evolution, as something natural? For example, it's incorrect to say that the progression from feudalism to capitalism, or from agriculture to industrialism (which utterly altered environments), was something unavoidable. The dominant classes might try and naturalise these developments in pseudo-Darwinian or organic lingo, but there was always a conflict of interests more complex and unpredictable than some kind of model of game theory might suggest.

To deny the will is to descend into a dangerous nihilism that only accepts the most vulgar of data. One denies many of the essentialist premises of individualist humanism, and applauds what is promoted as the inevitability of fascism.

Actually, determinism suggests it's more complex than anything dualism or indeterminism suggests. If you really think about it, indeterminism does not explain human free-will and nothing else is up to the task either. In order to make an understanding of our world we naturally progress backwards through the causal chain. Why the shift from feudalism to capitalism? Clearly humans were involved. The concept of free-will simply suggests that humans are the root cause, wheras determinism goes on for further explanation. What is the alternative? Indeterminism? That simply means that the change occurred randomly without cause. It doesn't explain anything.

Consider this. If your child broke a vase or something and you asked "How did the vase get broken?" and your child answered "It just spontaneously broke." you wouldn't believe them. Things do not happen that way, there are causes for everything. It is apparent and acknowledged in every aspect of life except A) The origin of life (Religion) and Human wills. Yet, no other explanation has ever come close. Causelessness cannot explain either of them, even if it is true.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Ahnimus, where do you think intelligence comes from, in the causal chain?

It's a descriptor for certain adaptive traits of humans at the interaction ontological level. Thus, it's cause, is the human brain. The trillions of robot nerve cells that such traits as intelligence emerge from.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

It's a descriptor for certain adaptive traits of humans at the interaction ontological level. Thus, it's cause, is the human brain. The trillions of robot nerve cells that such traits as intelligence emerge from.

How did intelligence get in the human brain?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

How did intelligence get in the human brain?

I just like to post near Angelica...sorry for the advertisement.

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

I just like to post near Angelica...

It's my pleasure, Roland. You're always welcome to post near me. Are you drinking?

sorry for the advertisement.

I'm not sure I follow...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

It's my pleasure, Roland. You're always welcome to post near me. Are you drinking?

Yes. funny you should ask....you are very perceptive tonight. I've had a few to absorb now. I just realized with all the added body mass that it takes a lot of beers for me to get off center now (7+). I am happy with who I am, and very much satsfied with my year long (now) daily efforts at prodigious health. I am currently off the beaten path (per se)....but very temporarily mind you.

I'll know I'll never be a serious drinker (thank god). Extremely Casual.

I feel like I deserve it. I feel vibrant. I feel solid.

Health ...what else can I say...

angelica

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

Yes. funny you should ask....you are very perceptive tonight. I've had a few to absorb now. I just realized with all the added body mass that it takes a lot of beers for me to get off center now (7+). I am happy with who I am, and very much satsfied with my year long (now) daily efforts at prodigious health. I am currently off the beaten path (per se)....but very temporarily mind you.

I'll know I'll never be a serious drinker (thank god). Extremely Casual.

I feel like I deserve it. I feel vibrant. I feel solid.

Health ...what else can I say...

Okay....so can I start talking about your shoulders, then?

j/k

RolandTD20Kdrummer

angelica wrote:

Okay....so can I start talking about your shoulders, then?

j/k

lol...

I just started back on them after a (recommended) 4 weeks or rest/growth

...honestly....you're a gem.

how tall are you again?

(pm me that)...

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

The concept of free-will simply suggests that humans are the root cause, wheras determinism goes on for further explanation. What is the alternative? Indeterminism? That simply means that the change occurred randomly without cause. It doesn't explain anything.

In the spiritual view of myself and many, the "randomness" is an illusion. All stems from the unseen forces at all times. The energy moves from the invisible realm into the physical realm. It is very causal, just in a different way than you perceive cause. So free will does not say that humans are the root cause in the religious perspective. That is the problem with a scientific or atheist view in assessing this information. You are limited to only seeing the physical pieces, and therefore cannot comprehend what any spiritual religious person can. You must distort the true believer view, and due to your own blind-spot, say the human is the cause. All believers know where our power comes from.

Spiritual/religious people understand all the dynamics have been set into play. And that our choices within those dynamics are sacred. Any "Source" or God does not make the choices. We make them on the Source's behalf. We are a necessary part of the process, and that will is highly regarded--what a wonderful evolution of these forces that has brought us to this. There are many levels of life, and energy, but to the human level and choice, we're it.