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Free-will simplified: The Point of Power

angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
edited August 2007 in A Moving Train
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufkrJkVqems

I found this video quite straight-forward on a subject that has been much overly-intellectualized on this forum.

Any thoughts?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Environment, oh yeah. This is the single largest determining factor in our viewpoints, and behavior. The environment we create for ourselves.
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  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    A lot of what is being said is true. We are given a predetermined mold to operate within. We can choose to either enhance our genetic potential, but cannot exceed beyond it. Some people have good eyesight some people wear glasses etc...

    I believe the last frontier under debate is the brain and what it can become conditioned to accomplish. People that learn to block out physical pain, or be the first in their family to get a phd, be an athelete, smash boards and concrete with their bare hands etc...

    However I believe our minds all operate on a like/dislike pattern to predict exactly what our course of action will be in every circumstance.

    No matter how big or small the action, if people do not get a pleasure response in the brain they will not do it, and if they are somehow forced to, it will induce stress.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    Environment, oh yeah. This is the single largest determining factor in our viewpoints, and behavior. The environment we create for ourselves.
    For me, I'm so glad someone else has simplified this for me. This makes sense to me on so many levels. For example, throughout my healing, I trusted my intuition--I saw a Lighted sense around books, and around people etc. And I always followed that after my first spiritual experiences. Now that I realize that the free will is in one's focus--the right books, places, people, etc. it makes sense that my healing unfolded perfectly, despite all I had working against me in terms of disorders and a poor environment.

    Secondly. In the wisdom of two separate schools of thought-- the tarot, and of the law of attraction--our focus, and where we put our attention is considered our magic wand. Our point of power. So, now I'm seeing all of this come together.

    We can choose what we create in our environment by our attention, because once we make such choices, all our pre-existing dispostions come into play, and that's cool, 'cause that's us. But knowing where we have the choice is very empowering.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    For me, I'm so glad someone else has simplified this for me. This makes sense to me on so many levels. For example, throughout my healing, I trusted my intuition--I saw a Lighted sense around books, and around people etc. And I always followed that after my first spiritual experiences. Now that I realize that the free will is in one's focus--the right books, places, people, etc. it makes sense that my healing unfolded perfectly, despite all I had working against me in terms of disorders and a poor environment.

    Secondly. In the wisdom of two separate schools of thought-- the tarot, and of the law of attraction--our focus, and where we put our attention is considered our magic wand. Our point of power. So, now I'm seeing all of this come together.

    We can choose what we create in our environment by our attention, because once we make such choices, all our pre-existing dispostions come into play, and that's cool, 'cause that's us. But knowing where we have the choice is very empowering.

    Us?

    I have a question.

    I know you know we've both had traumatic pasts. I think I've handled it all pretty well on my own. I've never sought therapy, or drugs (okay, alcohol) and only skimmed over some books concerning mental health. I've never really studied the kinds of things you and ahnimus have. It sort of bores me.

    When you read my posts, do you get the feeling I need your sort of healing?

    Honest answer.
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    A lot of what is being said is true. We are given a predetermined mold to operate within. We can choose to either enhance our genetic potential, but cannot exceed beyond it. Some people have good eyesight some people wear glasses etc...

    I believe the last frontier under debate is the brain and what it can become conditioned to accomplish. People that learn to block out physical pain, or be the first in their family to get a phd, be an athelete, smash boards and concrete with their bare hands etc...

    However I believe our minds all operate on a like/dislike pattern to predict exactly what our course of action will be in every circumstance.

    No matter how big or small the action, if people do not get a pleasure response in the brain they will not do it, and if they are somehow forced to, it will induce stress.

    Sounds kind of pavlovian. The full spectrum of human language (which is to include things beyond words) is a sensual thing. In my estimation, we are incredibly sensual creatures...and though pleasurable sensation is a part of it, and pain, that in and of itself isn't enough to turn on or off the exploration of human language.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    Us?

    I have a question.

    I know you know we've both had traumatic pasts. I think I've handled it all pretty well on my own. I've never sought therapy, or drugs (okay, alcohol) and only skimmed over some books concerning mental health. I've never really studied the kinds of things you and ahnimus have. It sort of bores me.

    When you read my posts, do you get the feeling I need your sort of healing?

    Honest answer.
    I apologize if the "us" sounded like I meant you and I, since I had quoted you. I really meant that we all are who we are at this level of our existence-- which is largely the predetermined forces and that's okay.

    About the healing, 98% of the population can use it, literally. There's a LOT of trauma going around. My own approach for others is that I believe we each have our own deep down inner voice. The one that is about our evolution and our best interests--we can always tune into it if we so choose. I recommend everyone listen to that voice--we have our own contact with the truth within. :)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    I apologize if the "us" sounded like I meant you and I, since I had quoted you. I really meant that we all are who we are at this level of our existence-- which is largely the predetermined forces and that's okay.

    About the healing, 98% of the population can use it, literally. There's a LOT of trauma going around. My own approach for others is that I believe we each have our own deep down inner voice. The one that is about our evolution and our best interests--we can always tune into it if we so choose. I recommend everyone listen to that voice--we have our own contact with the truth within. :)

    No, I didn't really think you meant it to be you and me, I just saw an opportunity to ask something of you that I've been meaning to ask.
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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    No, I didn't really think you meant it to be you and me, I just saw an opportunity to ask something of you that I've been meaning to ask.
    I will say one thing. Any type of hold any substance or imbalanced behaviours (like workaholism, shopaholism, gambling, excessive TV watch, sex addiction/excessive-porn use, addictions, etc.) has over us is toxic to us. And such a hold by any such "behaviour" keeps us blocked from our traumas deep inside. We can unravel the trauma and heal by seeking out appropriate avenues of help. We know those avenues when we are looking for them.

    As long as we use the behaviour and block aspects of ourselves, we distort our awareness.

    The key is for the individual to decide what is working for them, and what is not. For example, for me, sometimes what worked for forever for me changed, and what once worked became like a noose around my neck. That's why I feel I was "directed" to give up my "imbalances" one at a time, in a way that worked for me. Trust the inner wisdom.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    I will say one thing. Any type of hold any substance or imbalanced behaviours (like workaholism, shopaholism, gambling, excessive TV watch, sex addiction/excessive-porn use, addictions, etc.) has over us is toxic to us. And such a hold by any such "behaviour" keeps us blocked from our traumas deep inside. We can unravel the trauma and heal by seeking out appropriate avenues of help. We know those avenues when we are looking for them.

    As long as we use the behaviour and block aspects of ourselves, we distort our awareness.

    The key is for the individual to decide what is working for them, and what is not. For example, for me, sometimes what worked for forever for me changed, and what once worked became like a noose around my neck. That's why I feel I was "directed" to give up my "imbalances" one at a time, in a way that worked for me. Trust the inner wisdom.

    What do you make of this statement:

    There's no such thing as a genius.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    What do you make of this statement:

    There's no such thing as a genius.
    I'm not sure you really want to know what I think....but here goes, anyway! :)

    There is no such thing as a genius because there is no such thing as "thing". We cannot find the genius, unless we know who is imparting the KNOWledge. The individual, the separation, time, space and distance between anything is an illusion. There is only unbroken perfection, wholeness, eternity.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I've seen this before. It's bullshit.

    There is no free choice of environment.

    As one poster said on this forum "If I knew what it [the city] was like, I would not have gone there"

    That is exactly the point, we choose our environments based on various determinants.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    I'm not sure you really want to know what I think....but here goes, anyway! :)

    There is no such thing as a genius because there is no such thing as "thing". We cannot find the genius, unless we know who is imparting the KNOWledge. The individual, the separation, time, space and distance between anything is an illusion. There is only unbroken perfection, wholeness, eternity.

    And there is psychobabble. :)

    Let me ask it another way.

    Do you consider yourself a genius?
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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I've seen this before. It's bullshit.

    There is no free choice of environment.

    As one poster said on this forum "If I knew what it [the city] was like, I would not have gone there"

    That is exactly the point, we choose our environments based on various determinants.

    Sure there is. I mean, even your statement that there is no free choice of environment belies your meaning that environment is a determining factor.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Sure there is. I mean, even your statement that there is no free choice of environment belies your meaning that environment is a determining factor.

    No it doesn't.

    If you look for free-will, you will find it many places; indeterminism, environment, regular choice. But it's not really there. It's an illusion.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    Sounds kind of pavlovian. The full spectrum of human language (which is to include things beyond words) is a sensual thing. In my estimation, we are incredibly sensual creatures...and though pleasurable sensation is a part of it, and pain, that in and of itself isn't enough to turn on or off the exploration of human language.

    P.S. Roland, this isn't a come on.
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Check this out, Dan Dennett, probably the best known modern philosopher is a compatibalist, he believes in determinism and free-will. He tries to use nature and science to explain free-will.

    He says that if we use a narrow perspective of possible worlds, that is, an array X of possible worlds, where every world in the array has the exact same characteristics of this world, then there is no possibility of free-will. But if the array includes some other worlds which are not ours, then alternate choices are possible.

    But, he's already said we don't have it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    No it doesn't.

    If you look for free-will, you will find it many places; indeterminism, environment, regular choice. But it's not really there. It's an illusion.

    Well, what is an illusion? This implies trickery.
    What is this trickery of which you speak?
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Well, what is an illusion? This implies trickery.
    What is this trickery of which you speak?

    The sense of authorship. "you". That is, your "self". is a sub-routine in the brain, it performs certain functions, and within those functions it has authorship, but how it authors is strictly determined by it's nature.

    It's as the fly in fable, who upon a pole of a heavy carriage applauded himself for directing it's course. Man who thinks himself free, is a fly who thinks he has the power to move the universe.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The sense of authorship. "you". That is, your "self". is a sub-routine in the brain, it performs certain functions, and within those functions it has authorship, but how it authors is strictly determined by it's nature.

    It's as the fly in fable, who upon a pole of a heavy carriage applauded himself for directing it's course. Man who thinks himself free, is a fly who thinks he has the power to move the universe.

    Or, a human of free will knows a human has power over oneself.

    Are you a free thinker?
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    Or, a human of free will knows a human has power over oneself.

    Are you a free thinker?

    A "Free-thinker" is not synonymous with one who has free-will.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    And there is psychobabble. :)

    Let me ask it another way.

    Do you consider yourself a genius?
    No. I've taken IQ tests and I don't come up as "genius" at all. I did skip a grade in school, and was labelled with all kinds of big "potential" that I was unable to live up to, in my underachieving world.

    I've been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, which is connected with creative genius, as they say. Tapping into the further reaches (than "normal") for inspiration, it seems.

    I knew that if I could learn to regularly tap the "realms" I tapped in bi-polar illness, if I could learn to do it in health, it would be awesome.

    I read in a book once, that hypo mania, one of the higher states of bi-polar disorder is a state similar to the experience of self-actualized people--being in touch with cosmic consciousness.

    Again, to me, the bottom line is that we are all channels of forces. The channel is not the Source.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue, no one here is likely to change my point of view on this matter. I've read the best arguments from the best philosophers in the field of consciousness. They come up short.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    No. I've taken IQ tests and I don't come up as "genius" at all.

    I do.... sometimes.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    gue, no one here is likely to change my point of view on this matter. I've read the best arguments from the best philosophers in the field of consciousness. They come up short.

    I'm not here to change your point of view. Your point of view is your own, whether you believe it or not.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I do.... sometimes.
    :p



    It looks like you and I are agreeing on one thing.......that our individuality is an illusion--a box, so to speak. I see that where we direct consciousness is our point of free will. And really, we're all just Reality/God manifesting through various boxes complete with the programmed scripts and plays we live out and think are "real". all the while, we are merely consciousness, becoming conscious of itself.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    No. I've taken IQ tests and I don't come up as "genius" at all. I did skip a grade in school, and was labelled with all kinds of big "potential" that I was unable to live up to, in my underachieving world.

    I've been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, which is connected with creative genius, as they say. Tapping into the further reaches (than "normal") for inspiration, it seems.

    I knew that if I could learn to regularly tap the "realms" I tapped in bi-polar illness, if I could learn to do it in health, it would be awesome.

    I read in a book once, that hypo mania, one of the higher states of bi-polar disorder is a state similar to the experience of self-actualized people--being in touch with cosmic consciousness.

    Again, to me, the bottom line is that we are all channels of forces. The channel is not the Source.

    Why do you yourself suppose "self-actualized" people are in touch with "cosmic consciousness".
    I'm a self-actualized. I know who I am. I like the stars and all...but, you know...cosmic consciousness?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    :p



    It looks like you and I are agreeing on one thing.......that our individuality is an illusion--a box, so to speak. I see that where we direct consciousness is our point of free will. And really, we're all just Reality/God manifesting through various boxes complete with the programmed scripts and plays we live out and think are "real". all the while, we are merely consciousness, becoming conscious of itself.

    How do recognize yourself as "human"?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I do.... sometimes.

    Do you call Einstein a genius? And if "yes", why?
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
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  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    Why do you yourself suppose "self-actualized" people are in touch with "cosmic consciousness".
    I'm a self-actualized. I know who I am. I like the stars and all...but, you know...cosmic consciousness?
    It's a way a certain school of thought looked at the same phenomena, and the same famous people through history as Abraham Maslow did with his "self-actualization grouping. It's also called being in "flow", being attuned to the underlying currents of life.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    gue_barium wrote:
    How do recognize yourself as "human"?
    I'm not sure what you mean.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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