Iraq - Stay the course or Come home now?

jlew24asu

Truthmonger wrote:

The U.S. cannot be the solution. It is now only the problem. Staying just creates the problem, exacerbates it. Almost everyone agrees to that now.

leaving right now would cause a sense of lawlessness. we can at least be there to train and equip any army to defend itself. as well as build hospitals, schools, and infrasturcture.

Truthmonger

sponger wrote:

I did have a manager when I was working for the local government who said, "The violence in Iraq is really no different from that in, say, inner city los angeles."

Thats absurd

Commy

sponger wrote:

I did have a manager when I was working for the local government who said, "The violence in Iraq is really no different from that in, say, inner city los angeles."

I hear that argument a lot...

I'm not really sure about this but I don't think 40 people die every day in the inner cities from violence. I could be wrong.

rebornFixer

sponger wrote:

I did have a manager when I was working for the local government who said, "The violence in Iraq is really no different from that in, say, inner city los angeles."

There's a parallel to be made, sure ... But the difference is one of degree ... And actually, there's a qualitative difference as well, in the sectarian stuff.

Cosmo

sponger wrote:

I did have a manager when I was working for the local government who said, "The violence in Iraq is really no different from that in, say, inner city los angeles."

...
Ask him when was the last time an L.A.P.D. crusier was blown up by an I.E.D? Or 2 dozen beheaded, mutilated bodies showed up on the street?
I'm guessing your fomer boss has never even driven through Watts.

Truthmonger

jlew24asu wrote:

leaving right now would cause a sense of lawlessness. we can at least be there to train and equip any army to defend itself. as well as build hospitals, schools, and infrasturcture.

Fair enough, but you don't seem to understand is that it is the U.S., by its very presence, that is creating the havoc there. Thats what the British general was admitting to yesterday/today......that STC is like chasing your own tail. It will never end

sponger

I don't think there's any comparison at all between LA and Iraq. IED's? Mass executions and mass graves? Let's say that a US soldier equates to one LAPD Officer. That's 3K police men dead in the past couple of years. I just don't see the similarity.

jlew24asu

Truthmonger wrote:

Fair enough, but you don't seem to understand is that it is the U.S., by its very presence, that is creating the havoc there. Thats what the British general was admitting to yesterday/today......that STC is like chasing your own tail. It will never end

O i understand perfectly. our presence is not welcome by most. but our presence also provides security and our dollars provide the other things I mentioned. we arent there to set up a colony. we will get out when the country can stand on its own feet.

Truthmonger

Commy wrote:

I hear that argument a lot...

I'm not really sure about this but I don't think 40 people die every day in the inner cities from violence. I could be wrong.

40 ? 159 died from violence yesterday in iraq. They're finding dead bodies by the dozen dumped on roadways. You literally cannot travel because of the danger.

Cosmo

Commy wrote:

Most of hte peopl efighting are Iraqis...basically a civil war. If the US leaves and takes their toys with them the country can sort its own problems out.

...
That's how I feel.
I believe that even if ISRAEL were to pack up their shit an move into Baja California... those fuckers would STILL be fighting and killing each other.
We cannot seriously believe that by bringing them voting booths, McDonalds and Wal-Marts that they will turn into us.

Truthmonger

jlew24asu wrote:

O i understand perfectly. our presence is not welcome by most. but our presence also provides security and our dollars provide the other things I mentioned. we arent there to set up a colony. we will get out when the country can stand on its own feet.

Then why did the U.S. just spend 800 million on a new American embassy in baghdad ? And why is it planning on setting up at least 4 new permanent military bases in iraq ?

Oh, and your money ain't doin shit. Raw sewage runs down city streets and 3 years later, many parts of Iraq get only 12 hrs. of electricity a day. There is no security. And the country is now in the throes of a civil war, as judged by almost any standard.

rebornFixer

Cosmo wrote:

...
That's how I feel.
I believe that even if ISRAEL were to pack up their shit an move into Baja California... those fuckers would STILL be fighting and killing each other.
We cannot seriously believe that by bringing them voting booths, McDonalds and Wal-Marts that they will turn into us.

Exactly ... That's where I'm at as well. I once thought that maybe a civil war in Iraq could be avoided, but I don't think so any longer. In fact, the problems between people over there were on bloody display LONG before U.S. troops set foot on Iraqi soil.

miller8966

Scratchin a Letter wrote:

And why is that? They didn't ask to be invaded. They suffered for years under Saddam Hussain, and now they suffering even more because bush fucked up. They deserve their country back.

but of course, americans are more important than Iraqis arent they miller. Just shows how much of a raci....

Why do i care more about U.S troops?! cause their my neighbors! I live with them, see them at the mall, hell there my friends. I care more about my friends than some people ill never meet.

Same as that i care more about my family than i do yours; that doesnt mean i dont have empathy. But i wouldnt risk one of my family members for one of yours.

jlew24asu

Truthmonger wrote:

Then why did the U.S. just spend 800 million on a new American embassy in baghdad ? And why is it planning on setting up at least 4 new permanent military bases in iraq ?

Oh, and your money ain't doin shit. Raw sewage runs down city streets and 3 years later, many parts of Iraq get only 12 hrs. of electricity a day. There is no security. And the country is now in the throes of a civil war, as judged by almost any standard.

america has military bases all over the world. doesnt mean if there is a military base that we are occupying the country.

money is doin something. but thanks for your nice take on it. rome wasnt built in a day. building a country's infrastructure takes a long time. espically when you cant put all your focus on it.

here is a website I found with some info. not sure if its true. but it lists some positive and negatives.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm

sponger

If the US just up and left right now, the violence going on in Iraq would pale in comparison to the full scale civil war that would surely happen. I know it's hard to imagine a situation worse than what is happening on a daily basis right now, but we need only look to history for an example. Beirut? The violence in Iraq right now is like a patrick swayze bar fight compared to what went on in Beirut during the last 30 yrs or so.

Since when has a situation like the one in Iraq been able to "sort itself out" without a full-blown civil war that levels most of the infrastructure, leaving a totalitarian regime in control?

Truthmonger

jlew24asu wrote:

america has military bases all over the world. doesnt mean if there is a military base that we are occupying the country.

money is doin something. but thanks for your nice take on it. rome wasnt built in a day. building a country's infrastructure takes a long time. espically when you cant put all your focus on it.

here is a website I found with some info. not sure if its true. but it lists some positive and negatives.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/rayreynolds.htm

Do you wanna know why your money ain't doin' anything ? Its b/c of the 400 billion that the US has spent on Iraq so far, only a minscule amount has gone to reconstruction. And I mean muniscule - something like 3 or 4 %. Is the US doing good things in Iraq - of course it is, but then why shouldn't they, it was them who dropped 500 lb. bombs based on a litany of lies.

You think the avg. Iraqi doesn't know that ? You think they forgot about Abu Ghraib already ? You think they're thankful for starting a civil war in their country ? You think the 1 million who fled Iraq wanted to leave ? Iraq is in shambles right now.

Its time to go bud.

Cosmo

sponger wrote:

If the US just up and left right now, the violence going on in Iraq would pale in comparison to the full scale civil war that would surely happen. I know it's hard to imagine a situation worse than what is happening on a daily basis right now, but we need only look to history for an example. Beirut? The violence in Iraq right now is like a patrick swayze bar fight compared to what went on in Beirut during the last 30 yrs or so.

...
So, what you are saying... that we are holding down a pressure cooker situation? Will the longer we clamp down on them... the greater the possibility that it will eventually just go away?
If that is the case... why don't we clamp down on the Israel/Palestine thing and eventually, they will forget all about past aggressions.
Because it won't work.
Pointing a gun at two people the make sure they won't kill each other... it means you will spend a long, long time pointing that gun. and there is no guarantee that they won't kill each other once you have left.

sponger

Cosmo wrote:

...
So, what you are saying... that we are holding down a pressure cooker situation? Will the longer we clamp down on them... the greater the possibility that it will eventually just go away?
If that is the case... why don't we clamp down on the Israel/Palestine thing and eventually, they will forget all about past aggressions.
Because it won't work.
Pointing a gun at two people the make sure they won't kill each other... it means you will spend a long, long time pointing that gun. and there is no guarantee that they won't kill each other once you have left.

In the case of Israel and Palestine, when did a foreign occupation attempting to "clamp" the situation ever happen? You don't really know if it would work or not.

Not to mention, the civil war that would happen in Iraq would happen on death toll scale far exceeding that existing between Palestine and Israel. And the end result would most certainly mean the installation of a totalitarian regime just as bad, if not worse, than Saddam.

I think you are underestimating how bad it would really get over there. You can't just back off and let it run its course. We might very well be looking at genocide. Do you think the US should back off and let genocide run its course?

Ahnimus

I don't think leaving Iraq would result in a totalitarian regime. I think it would end in 3 seperate nations. Probably the way it should be. Unfortunately there will be a lot of violence leading up to that point.

blackredyellow

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

Yea but the problem with them playing a supportive role is that they may be leaned on too heavily. After awhile it may be back to the way it was before. If you take the soldiers out...then they can't be used as much. (I think that makes sense. I may not be explaining as effectively as I think I am though)

That is why I like Murtha's plan when he originally came out with it... He wanted to re-depoly and increasing number of troops to outside areas like kuwait or surrounding areas so that we can go an and support the Iraquis when they get in trouble and need us. I just do see them having any incentive to right their own ship with us holding their hands the whole time.