Then educate us. We have a right to an education. Therefore, you have an obligation to provide it.
i proudly pay taxes to support the education of my society...
and would gladly pay more for higher quality and higher pay for teachers so that the best and brightest go into the education field instead of wasting their talents in some bullhit profession such as attorney or the banking industry
i proudly pay taxes to support the education of my society...
But I have a right to an education, not just your taxes. And, as you say, I am naive. Therefore, you have a duty to me.
and would gladly pay more for higher quality and higher pay for teachers so that the best and brightest go into the education field instead of wasting their talents in some bullhit profession such as attorney or the banking industry
Then pay for them! No one here is telling you not to pay teachers.
Your point was that people's pay is related to the amount of work they do (it's not), and that the use of a message board somehow is mutually exclusive to doing valuable work. Both are obviously not true, so I didn't prove your point.
you drew a straight line from overcompensated, under-worked arseholes to anti-social programs, pro-capitalist arseholes. it's an arshole-to-arshole love connection!
again, thank you.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
you drew a straight line from overcompensated, under-worked arseholes to anti-social programs, pro-capitalist arseholes. it's an arshole-to-arshole love connection!
This addresses not a single of the questions I asked you. It only invents something that no one said, and you've tried to hide in cute insults. This isn't a playground, and we're not 10.
So, let's try again:
1) What is the relationship between the amount of work a person does and the value of that work?
2) How did you determine that I (or anyone else) is overcompensated?
This addresses not a single of the questions I asked you. It only invents something that no one said, and you've tried to hide in cute insults. This isn't a playground, and we're not 10.
So, let's try again:
1) What is the relationship between the amount of work a person does and the value of that work?
2) How did you determine that I (or anyone else) is overcompensated?
There needs to be SOME output in any job, doesn't there? Are you a brain surgeon, in which case I could see how you might have large stretches of downtime in between lifesaving surgeries? Assuming you're not, what DO you do for a living?
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
how about we just close all the publicly funded prisons and release the inmates... close all the police departments... then close the schools... and the government jobs... then the research and devolpment funding... then the transportation funding...
then you guys will get a real dose of what the world would be like in your little libertarian/free market/taxes=stealing utopia
how about we just close all the publicly funded prisons and release the inmates...
Please do. Imprisonment is barbaric.
close all the police departments...
Why do you have to close it? I'm sure many people will willingly support the police department.
then close the schools...
You'll probably have to do that. Not too many people would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for the piss-poor education your schools provide.
and the government jobs...
I'm sure there are many government workers who people would willingly wish to employ either at their current positions or within private industry.
then the research and devolpment funding...
Hehe...you mean the research and development funding that almost always comes with corporate or political motivation and strings attached, or is constantly looking for a better way to kill people? Yeah, that can definitely go.
then the transportation funding...
I'm certain that people will willingly pay for transportation.
then you guys will get a real dose of what the world would be like in your little libertarian/free market/taxes=stealing utopia
I get doses of that everyday when I deal with my customers, deal with my local business partners, help my friends or family, receive help from the same, and through pretty much every interaction I have with people on a daily basis. It is nice.
Wow. So if I spend 1,000,000 hours and 1,000,000,000,000,000 calories building you a paper mache airplane, would it be worth $1,000,000,001,000,000 to you?
are you supposed to be producing anything of any value?
Hell yes. I'm going to go to work on that airplane now. Maybe then I'll be as rich as John Edwards
is that farfromglorified is by far the worst debater on this board...
Classy.
how do you propose certain things would funtion...
education for example? how would that work in your little fantasy world?
How would education work? Well, it's a bit complicated.
First, person A decides they're smart. Second, person B decides they want to be smarter, or would like their children to be smarter. Third, person B recognizes the intelligence of person A and agrees to provide something of value to person A in exchange for education. Rinse, repeat. Futhermore, society as a whole recognizes the economic value of having everyone educated to high levels and comes together to form cooperatives wherein schooling is provided to those who wish to receive it.
but needed... if you dont think so this argument is over because it would be obvious you are clueless
Why do you have to close it? I'm sure many people will willingly support the police department.
just not you right?
You'll probably have to do that. Not too many people would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for the piss-poor education your schools provide.
what do you propose for education?
I'm sure there are many government workers who people would willingly wish to employ either at their current positions or within private industry.
examples please...
Hehe...you mean the research and development funding that almost always comes with corporate or political motivation and strings attached, or is constantly looking for a better way to kill people? Yeah, that can definitely go.
i know soemone that will chime in and explain the importance of government funding of research in the medical field...
I'm certain that people will willingly pay for transportation.
just as they are doing know... the problem is cheap mofos liek you would kick in your share and would let the burden fall on those charitable neighbors of yours
I get doses of that everyday when I deal with my customers, deal with my local business partners, help my friends or family, receive help from the same, and through pretty much every interaction I have with people on a daily basis. It is nice.
no you dont. not even close. you and the people around you take advantage of things taxes provide for you and you dont even realize it. or appreciate it
How would education work? Well, it's a bit complicated.
First, person A decides they're smart. Second, person B decides they want to be smarter, or would like their children to be smarter. Third, person B recognizes the intelligence of person A and agrees to provide something of value to person A in exchange for education.
what if they cant afford the services, fuck em?... i couldnt currently afford to send my child to a private school? your idea works for those that can afford it. so you are proposing that education only be provided to those that can afford it. wow, thats really nice of you.
Futhermore, society as a whole recognizes the economic value of having everyone educated to high levels and comes together to form cooperatives wherein schooling is provided to those who wish to receive it.
isnt that excatly what we have except throug a tax ssystem that all equally pay into? we already have that. that is how the public school system came about. we knew we needed to educate people. so we collectively paid for it via taxes. with everyone paying in, not just "charitable people"
but needed... if you dont think so this argument is over because it would be obvious you are clueless
There are no necessary evils, just a lack of ability or immagination. You sound like someone defending a war.
just not you right?
I wouldn't pay for police protection, no. The costs would be exceptionally high compared to my risk.
what do you propose for education?
See previous post.
examples please...
Military personal and infrastructure (water, roads, etc) service workers are two obvious examples of service providers that would continue to exist without coerced taxation. I'm sure there are many more.
i know soemone that will chime in and explain the importance of government funding of research in the medical field...
I know someone else will wisely point out that such funding never necessarily has to come from the government, either. The vast majority of technological advances have come from private investment in R&D, not government investment.
just as they are doing know... the problem is cheap mofos liek you would kick in your share and would let the burden fall on those charitable neighbors of yours
What silly logic. Does Wal-Mart go out of business or fail to serve its customers because I don't shop there?
no you dont. not even close. you and the people around you take advantage of things taxes provide for you and you dont even realize it. or appreciate it
WTF??? We're paying those taxes. If we weren't, you'd have some kind of argument. If I'm given the chance to opt out, and then I continue to take advantage, then you'll have an argument. But, ironically, all of this still started with you demanding services for people who, for the most part, currently use these services without paying taxes.
you demanding services for people who, for the most part, currently use these services without paying taxes.
i actually work in a buidling that provides social sevices so let me be the first to tell you that little myth is WRONG. abuse and fraud is extremely minimal. and i mean extremely. most that use services have at some time paid into those services
and also personally... my father was stricken with cancer... he got very ill... he could no longer work... he was so ill that he required around the clock care from his girlfriend who then could not work... the only reason he could eat day to day was his social security disability pay, that was minimal. without that he would have been able to financially support himself at all. he paid into social security his entire working life... so my experience with social programs and social nets provided collectively are real... not some ideal i have formed based on maybes and if's and textbooks or kooky politicians... my experience is real and i have seen the importance of these things first hand...
you never think it is going to be you, until it is you good friend
help provide for others... help provide for a better place... help provide for a better country... help provide for a better world... not just when it benefits you... think beyond yourself and your benefit...
what if they cant afford the services, fuck em?...
Since I would not be an educator, that would not be up to me. Certainly anyone who provides a service would have the basic right to deny services to people who cannot provide any value in return or, conversely, to grant services to those who cannot provide any value in return as a form of charity.
i couldnt currently afford to send my child to a private school?
Why not? Many private schools exist now with lower per-child expenditures than public schools. Abesnt so-called "free" education provided from the state, low-cost private schools of various quality would certainly emerge.
That said, certainly some people would still be in a situation where education would not be available to them or their children. That is certainly a bad thing. However, that situation does not give them a lease on the life or labor of their local educators.
Wise societies and communities find ways to educate their young, regardless of the economic status of their families. However, wise societies also do not stifle markets, or abdicate property or self-ownership rights. Find the intersection or choose your "necessary evil", as you might call it.
your idea works for those that can afford it. so you are proposing that education only be provided to those that can afford it. wow, thats really nice of you. isnt that excatly what we have except throug a tax ssystem that all equally pay into? we already have that. that is how the public school system came about. we knew we needed to educate people. so we collectively paid for it via taxes. with everyone paying in, not just "charitable people"
What you have now are a lot of terrible schools that waste tons of money and fail to educate millions of children and adults. A huge reason for this is that these schools have almost no accountability to those that pay for their existence.
With everyone forced to pay for schools, you don't have "charity", you have theft. If I steal from you to pay for my son's education, that doesn't make me "altruistic" or "charitable". That makes me a theif. If you willingly pay for my son's education, that makes you both.
You didn't "collectively pay" for it. You forced some people to pay for it and, even worse, you forced everyone to buy it, regardless of the quality of the product.
i actually work in a buidling that provides social sevices so let me be the first to tell you that little myth is WRONG. abuse and fraud is extremely minimal. and i mean extremely. most that use services have at some time paid into those services
Knowing nothing about your facility, I can't speak to it. However, the overall numbers do not lie. A near-majority in this country now pay no federal tax.
and also personally... my father was stricken with cancer... he got very ill... he could no longer work... he was so ill that he required around the clock care from his girlfriend who then could not work... the only reason he could eat day to day was his social security disability pay, that was minimal. without that he would have been able to financially support himself at all. he paid into social security his entire working life... so my experience with social programs and social nets provided collectively are real... not some ideal i have formed based on maybes and if's and textbooks or kooky politicians... my experience is real and i have seen the importance of these things first hand...
I'm sorry that you and your family had to go through that. It sounds like an absolutely awful situation, and I absolutely think that anyone has a right to receive back in services what they pay into them. Anyone who helped you and your family during that time did a wonderful thing. However, awful experiences or otherwise, no one has a fundamental right to their neighbor's life or property. Otherwise, they have no right to their own.
you never think it is going to be you, until it is you good friend
help provide for others... help provide for a better place... help provide for a better country... help provide for a better world... not just when it benefits you... think beyond yourself and your benefit...
You see, I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't believe you have any right to force people to help you or to help others. When people willingly come together to make something great happen, that's the ultimate good. When people force each other into service, however, a terrible evil has happened, regardless of the end.
In an opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal, the former Democratic senator from North Carolina said that if elected president he would cap untaxed chief executive pay, require companies to enroll employees in retirement plans and force firms to honor pension promises to workers, even in bankruptcy.
I hope this guy doesn't win. or become a running mate.
What's the issue..? He's talking about "untaxed" pay, right...?
Shouldn't CEO's pay taxes on all earnings...? you know, like you and me..?
Edwards...anyone that thinks $400 is an acceptable price for a haircut should never be a position of controlling people's money.
Aside from having a huge vanity complex, it's just plain stupid to pay that much money.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
hard work, dedication, motivation, innovation are all good qualities which deserve to be rewarded. I work very hard. and in return I receive "nice salary and benefits" I dont demand anyone to hand me anything for free.
i don't know what you do, but there are A LOT of Americans that work A LOT harder than you do, i'm quite sure, and are not making the ends meet.
This country was, literally, built by the working poor and it is the working poor that sustain it and keep it running.
One other thing i know is whether its Edwards, or more likely, Obama, you fuckers are going to lose. You've already lost. i can see the fear in your metaphorical eyes...
and it makes me smile.
Enjoy this year, bitches. Its your last one for a while.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Wow. So if I spend 1,000,000 hours and 1,000,000,000,000,000 calories building you a paper mache airplane, would it be worth $1,000,000,001,000,000 to you?
Hell yes. I'm going to go to work on that airplane now. Maybe then I'll be as rich as John Edwards
john edwards has worked extraordinarily hard to make the money he's made. there's nothing you can say against him that has any bearing on the fact that you most likely get paid too much to do very little.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i don't know what you do, but there are A LOT of Americans that work A LOT harder than you do, i'm quite sure, and are not making the ends meet.
This country was, literally, built by the working poor and it is the working poor that sustain it and keep it running.
One other thing i know is whether its Edwards, or more likely, Obama, you fuckers are going to lose. You've already lost. i can see the fear in your metaphorical eyes...
and it makes me smile.
Enjoy this year, bitches. Its your last one for a while.
>swoons<
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i don't know what you do, but there are A LOT of Americans that work A LOT harder than you do, i'm quite sure, and are not making the ends meet.
This country was, literally, built by the working poor and it is the working poor that sustain it and keep it running.
One other thing i know is whether its Edwards, or more likely, Obama, you fuckers are going to lose. You've already lost. i can see the fear in your metaphorical eyes...
and it makes me smile.
Enjoy this year, bitches. Its your last one for a while.
Comments
i proudly pay taxes to support the education of my society...
and would gladly pay more for higher quality and higher pay for teachers so that the best and brightest go into the education field instead of wasting their talents in some bullhit profession such as attorney or the banking industry
But I have a right to an education, not just your taxes. And, as you say, I am naive. Therefore, you have a duty to me.
Then pay for them! No one here is telling you not to pay teachers.
you drew a straight line from overcompensated, under-worked arseholes to anti-social programs, pro-capitalist arseholes. it's an arshole-to-arshole love connection!
again, thank you.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
yes you have a right to an education... and it is the collective responsibility of society to ensure that you have access to it...
This addresses not a single of the questions I asked you. It only invents something that no one said, and you've tried to hide in cute insults. This isn't a playground, and we're not 10.
So, let's try again:
1) What is the relationship between the amount of work a person does and the value of that work?
2) How did you determine that I (or anyone else) is overcompensated?
You're part of this collective, just like Bill Gates, are you not? So do it up. Educate. Tell me why I am naive. Go!
There needs to be SOME output in any job, doesn't there? Are you a brain surgeon, in which case I could see how you might have large stretches of downtime in between lifesaving surgeries? Assuming you're not, what DO you do for a living?
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
then you guys will get a real dose of what the world would be like in your little libertarian/free market/taxes=stealing utopia
what a joke
Absolutely! But the value of the output is not necessarily related to the amount of time it took to create the output.
No, I'm certainly not a brain surgeon.
I play with computers.
most often, time + energy= value.
are you supposed to be producing anything of any value?
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
Please do. Imprisonment is barbaric.
Why do you have to close it? I'm sure many people will willingly support the police department.
You'll probably have to do that. Not too many people would willingly fork over thousands of dollars for the piss-poor education your schools provide.
I'm sure there are many government workers who people would willingly wish to employ either at their current positions or within private industry.
Hehe...you mean the research and development funding that almost always comes with corporate or political motivation and strings attached, or is constantly looking for a better way to kill people? Yeah, that can definitely go.
I'm certain that people will willingly pay for transportation.
I get doses of that everyday when I deal with my customers, deal with my local business partners, help my friends or family, receive help from the same, and through pretty much every interaction I have with people on a daily basis. It is nice.
is that farfromglorified is by far the worst debater on this board...
you have brought nothing to the tabel except endless babble going in circles that rarely has anything tangible to d owith the topic at hand...
your ideals have to have something to back them up besides emty rhetoric
how do you propose certain things would funtion...
education for example? how would that work in your little fantasy world?
Wow. So if I spend 1,000,000 hours and 1,000,000,000,000,000 calories building you a paper mache airplane, would it be worth $1,000,000,001,000,000 to you?
Hell yes. I'm going to go to work on that airplane now. Maybe then I'll be as rich as John Edwards
Classy.
How would education work? Well, it's a bit complicated.
First, person A decides they're smart. Second, person B decides they want to be smarter, or would like their children to be smarter. Third, person B recognizes the intelligence of person A and agrees to provide something of value to person A in exchange for education. Rinse, repeat. Futhermore, society as a whole recognizes the economic value of having everyone educated to high levels and comes together to form cooperatives wherein schooling is provided to those who wish to receive it.
just not you right?
what do you propose for education?
examples please...
i know soemone that will chime in and explain the importance of government funding of research in the medical field...
just as they are doing know... the problem is cheap mofos liek you would kick in your share and would let the burden fall on those charitable neighbors of yours
no you dont. not even close. you and the people around you take advantage of things taxes provide for you and you dont even realize it. or appreciate it
There are no necessary evils, just a lack of ability or immagination. You sound like someone defending a war.
I wouldn't pay for police protection, no. The costs would be exceptionally high compared to my risk.
See previous post.
Military personal and infrastructure (water, roads, etc) service workers are two obvious examples of service providers that would continue to exist without coerced taxation. I'm sure there are many more.
I know someone else will wisely point out that such funding never necessarily has to come from the government, either. The vast majority of technological advances have come from private investment in R&D, not government investment.
What silly logic. Does Wal-Mart go out of business or fail to serve its customers because I don't shop there?
WTF??? We're paying those taxes. If we weren't, you'd have some kind of argument. If I'm given the chance to opt out, and then I continue to take advantage, then you'll have an argument. But, ironically, all of this still started with you demanding services for people who, for the most part, currently use these services without paying taxes.
i actually work in a buidling that provides social sevices so let me be the first to tell you that little myth is WRONG. abuse and fraud is extremely minimal. and i mean extremely. most that use services have at some time paid into those services
and also personally... my father was stricken with cancer... he got very ill... he could no longer work... he was so ill that he required around the clock care from his girlfriend who then could not work... the only reason he could eat day to day was his social security disability pay, that was minimal. without that he would have been able to financially support himself at all. he paid into social security his entire working life... so my experience with social programs and social nets provided collectively are real... not some ideal i have formed based on maybes and if's and textbooks or kooky politicians... my experience is real and i have seen the importance of these things first hand...
you never think it is going to be you, until it is you good friend
help provide for others... help provide for a better place... help provide for a better country... help provide for a better world... not just when it benefits you... think beyond yourself and your benefit...
your way of thinking is SO selfish...
cant you see beyond your direct benefit? is that all that matetrs to you? does it benefit me? and if not then i dont want to help fund it?
as i said... some folks think they are the only person that matters
have a good weekend
Since I would not be an educator, that would not be up to me. Certainly anyone who provides a service would have the basic right to deny services to people who cannot provide any value in return or, conversely, to grant services to those who cannot provide any value in return as a form of charity.
Why not? Many private schools exist now with lower per-child expenditures than public schools. Abesnt so-called "free" education provided from the state, low-cost private schools of various quality would certainly emerge.
That said, certainly some people would still be in a situation where education would not be available to them or their children. That is certainly a bad thing. However, that situation does not give them a lease on the life or labor of their local educators.
Wise societies and communities find ways to educate their young, regardless of the economic status of their families. However, wise societies also do not stifle markets, or abdicate property or self-ownership rights. Find the intersection or choose your "necessary evil", as you might call it.
What you have now are a lot of terrible schools that waste tons of money and fail to educate millions of children and adults. A huge reason for this is that these schools have almost no accountability to those that pay for their existence.
With everyone forced to pay for schools, you don't have "charity", you have theft. If I steal from you to pay for my son's education, that doesn't make me "altruistic" or "charitable". That makes me a theif. If you willingly pay for my son's education, that makes you both.
You didn't "collectively pay" for it. You forced some people to pay for it and, even worse, you forced everyone to buy it, regardless of the quality of the product.
Sounds kind of funny coming from the person making demands without promising to provide anything in return.
Absolutely.
No. It's part of what matters to me.
In the end, funding violence rarely helps anyone. I have no interest in funding your goons.
Sounds kind of funny coming from the person making demands without promising to provide anything in return.
You too.
Knowing nothing about your facility, I can't speak to it. However, the overall numbers do not lie. A near-majority in this country now pay no federal tax.
I'm sorry that you and your family had to go through that. It sounds like an absolutely awful situation, and I absolutely think that anyone has a right to receive back in services what they pay into them. Anyone who helped you and your family during that time did a wonderful thing. However, awful experiences or otherwise, no one has a fundamental right to their neighbor's life or property. Otherwise, they have no right to their own.
You see, I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't believe you have any right to force people to help you or to help others. When people willingly come together to make something great happen, that's the ultimate good. When people force each other into service, however, a terrible evil has happened, regardless of the end.
What's the issue..? He's talking about "untaxed" pay, right...?
Shouldn't CEO's pay taxes on all earnings...? you know, like you and me..?
untaxed pay should be taxed, like everyone else. not capped.
Aside from having a huge vanity complex, it's just plain stupid to pay that much money.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
This country was, literally, built by the working poor and it is the working poor that sustain it and keep it running.
One other thing i know is whether its Edwards, or more likely, Obama, you fuckers are going to lose. You've already lost. i can see the fear in your metaphorical eyes...
and it makes me smile.
Enjoy this year, bitches. Its your last one for a while.
john edwards has worked extraordinarily hard to make the money he's made. there's nothing you can say against him that has any bearing on the fact that you most likely get paid too much to do very little.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
ah, yes, the infamous hair cut. that's all you've got, apparently?
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
going to lose what exactly?