even as a legal minor, she should be afforded the right to choice in this, even if her parents would disapprove/say no. however, i simply think the government should not be regulating this at all.
Do you honestly believe that every minor in an abortion clinic who is not accompanied by a parent is doing so because the pregnancy is the result of incest or they would be beaten if the parent found out?
agreed.
even as a legal minor, she should be afforded the right to choice in this, even if her parents would disapprove/say no. however, i simply think the government should not be regulating this at all.
This is actually just a question, but do you think this should be the case for all medical procedures including cosmetic?
It is an abortion issue. 16-year old girls aren't asking their aunts or grandparents to take them across state lines so they can get appendectomies.
So is abortion the only health issue you are going to take away from the people legally responsible? Where else in my family's life do you feel you should have the right to take over responsibility? The issue has nothing to do with abortion, abortion is just the poster child.
It took me a four year court battle just to get legal responsibility for my child. I'll be fucked if you think I'm gladly handing that over to anyone for any reason. Stay the fuck out of family's lives. Period. Raise your kid how you want within the boundaries of the law. I'll do the same. You have not a clue as to what's best for my or any child but your own.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
So is abortion the only health issue you are going to take away from the people legally responsible? Where else in my family's life do you feel you should have the right to take over responsibility? The issue has nothing to do with abortion, it's just the poster child.
Is abortion the only health issue you are going to try to legislate for others?
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
So is abortion the only health issue you are going to take away from the people legally responsible? Where else in my family's life do you feel you should have the right to take over responsibility? The issue has nothing to do with abortion, abortion is just the poster child.
It took me a four year court battle just to get legal responsibility for my child. I'll be fucked if you think I'm gladly handing that over to anyone for any reason. Stay the fuck out of family's lives. Period. Raise your kid how you want within the boundaries of the law. I'll do the same. You have not a clue as to what's best for my or any child but your own.
How do you feel about the judge that ordered a 16 year old to undergo chemotherapy against his and his parents wishes?
Is abortion the only health issue you are going to try to legislate for others?
I'd be happy with a common sense law that said that accept in cases of emergency that no one other than a legal gaurdian can take a minor in for any medical procedure.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
How do you feel about the judge that ordered a 16 year old to undergo chemotherapy against his and his parents wishes?
It's wrong. The family made a choice that would be legal for an adult to make. The judge should stay out of the family's life. Same goes if the case was a minor with parental support not wanting a blood transfusion for religious reasons. I may not agree with the parents decision, but I will respect it.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'd be happy with a common sense law that said that accept in cases of emergency that no one other than a legal gaurdian can take a minor in for any medical procedure.
I'd agree with this. If social services removed the child from the parent's care than that is another story, but if the state deems the parents to be legal guardians and therefore competent to make decisions for the minor, than it is the parents perogative.
I'd agree with this. If social services removed the child from the parent's care than that is another story, but if the state deems the parents to be legal guardians and therefore competent to make decisions for the minor, than it is the parents perogative.
Thank you. What's the point of being a legal guardian if in the end it has no meaning, that the responsibility can be usurped by anyone.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I was speaking from experience with actual women who have been through this. Which "facts" are you using?
I'm not doubting your experience. I'm calling you on your statements. You are generalizing, and stating things that you cannot possibly prove.
Even if by same unbelievable string of coincidences, every single underage girl you knew from your work at the clinic was there trying to escape future incest and/or beatings, this doesn't afford you the right to state that EVERY girl does so for such a reason. This is basic logic.
I may seem like I'm nit-picking, but I generally find that those who make sweeping and false generalizations on which to base their arguement, are standing on pretty weak ground.
How do you feel about the judge that ordered a 16 year old to undergo chemotherapy against his and his parents wishes?
If the parents are detrimental to the health of their child (preventing life saving treatment) than, I think that is grounds for removal of the child from their parents. At 16 can you not make your own decisions? If a 16 year old refuses treatment, that is their perogative, but a parent denying such chemotherapy for instance is unfit.
I'd be happy with a common sense law that said that
accept in cases of emergency that no one other than a legal gaurdian can take a minor in for any medical procedure.
So is abortion the only health issue you are going to take away from the people legally responsible? Where else in my family's life do you feel you should have the right to take over responsibility? The issue has nothing to do with abortion, abortion is just the poster child.
It took me a four year court battle just to get legal responsibility for my child. I'll be fucked if you think I'm gladly handing that over to anyone for any reason. Stay the fuck out of family's lives. Period. Raise your kid how you want within the boundaries of the law. I'll do the same. You have not a clue as to what's best for my or any child but your own.
No, the issue is abortion. It's right there in the thread title. You seem to letting your strong position on parental rights cloud your understanding of the fact that this is specifically an abortion issue. Taking into consideration the fact that we're talking about minors and their guardians, how much power should the govt., or the parents, for that matter, have over the reproductive choices of a teenage female? The question isn't over the removal of the parental rights. It should be about the rights of the pregnant teenager to make her own decisions and the restrictions placed on her by the government.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
The question isn't over the removal of the parental rights. It should be about the rights of the pregnant teenager to make her own decisions and the restrictions placed on her by the government.
There is a process in place if a minor wants to emancipate him or herself. It's funny that this minor is happy to let parents take full responsibility for him or her until this point. But once they've made a life mistake they want to be able to act like an emancipated minor but then have the luxury of going back to parents having to take full fiscal responsibility for him or her. Even worse the minor wants to drag others into the mess but have those dragged in take no ownership for their actions. Unbelievable.
If the minor was so able to make these life altering decisions with no parental involvement then they should have been mature enough to become emancipated minors long before they got to the point in their life where they needed an abortion.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
There are countless reasons why the girl could be pressured into going to such lengths, many of which include a sleazy boyfriend who wants to skirt all responsibilities for his actions. Other girls are emarrassed. Others are afraid of what people will think/say. A lot of kids worry about a lot of things, and when they finally come clean to their parents, it's never as bad as they had it in their head.
I agree with you here.
I'm wondering if VictoryGin is saying that if a young girl is at the point where she feels it is necessary to get an abortion without parental support, that, itself, is a good reason. The underlying issues were set into play long before such a situation, by the family system. We all have our ideas on what is good/not-good reasoning, and in the end, how the individual girl feels is what counts at that time.
Apparently some people disagree.
I definitely would question the intentions of the person involved in helping an underage emotional child take such a huge step, whether a boyfriend, or an abortion clinic worker. Each adult is responsible for their own personal agenda that is brought into the situation. We all have our personal blindspots.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not doubting your experience. I'm calling you on your statements. You are generalizing, and stating things that you cannot possibly prove.
Even if by same unbelievable string of coincidences, every single underage girl you knew from your work at the clinic was there trying to escape future incest and/or beatings, this doesn't afford you the right to state that EVERY girl does so for such a reason. This is basic logic.
I may seem like I'm nit-picking, but I generally find that those who make sweeping and false generalizations on which to base their arguement, are standing on pretty weak ground.
But hey, that's just "my experiences."
- Dan
It doesn't seem like you're nit-picking, it seems like you didn't read or understand what I said:
It doesn't seem like you're nit-picking, it seems like you didn't read or understand what I said:
I said in my experience, most minors bring parents. The ones who don't, have a very good reason.
I did not say that every single woman in the nation who is a minor and doesn't bring parents is due to incent or abuse.
Now who is on weak ground?
I've read research that backs that up as well. The overwhelming majority of underage girls bring a parent with them.
I agree with what I think you and angelica are saying ... by the time a girl is old enough to be pregnant, she either has the sort of relationship with her parents that enables her to go to them, or she doesn't. We can't legislate it into existence, as much as we might like to. I too think that the minority of girls who don't have a relative with them in most cases have a very good reason for it.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
There is a process in place if a minor wants to emancipate him or herself. It's funny that this minor is happy to let parents take full responsibility for him or her until this point. But once they've made a life mistake they want to be able to act like an emancipated minor but then have the luxury of going back to parents having to take full fiscal responsibility for him or her. Even worse the minor wants to drag others into the mess but have those dragged in take no ownership for their actions. Unbelievable.
If the minor was so able to make these life altering decisions with no parental involvement then they should have been mature enough to become emancipated minors long before they got to the point in their life where they needed an abortion.
As somone else pointed out, it's not a case of the child necessarily being "mature" enough to make this decision by herself. VG said that most minors try to find an adult that will listen to them and advise and counsel them. For many different reasons, some minors feel like they won't get that from the parents.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
I've read research that backs that up as well. The overwhelming majority of underage girls bring a parent with them.
I agree with what I think you and angelica are saying ... by the time a girl is old enough to be pregnant, she either has the sort of relationship with her parents that enables her to go to them, or she doesn't. We can't legislate it into existence, as much as we might like to. I too think that the minority of girls who don't have a relative with them in most cases have a very good reason for it.
When my daughter began running away at age 13 I would call the police when she was being harboured by neigbours or friends. In our province, the police will find and talk to such children, and even encourage them to return home. Yet they do not force a child over the age of 12 to go home, in case it is family abuse (which takes all kinds of forms) that is causing the problem.
I felt immense lack of control. That lack of control reflected the fact that I had an immense lack of control of my own family system. The police could not give me such control, it was something I eventually learned to adapt to. By accepting my own lack of family control, I learned to earn authentic family respect and furthermore to resolve the problems with my daughter. We earned our reconciliation through problem solving, rather than by dominance and control.
I'm saddened when any female is lowered on inner/outer resources to a degree that she feels pushed to where she needs to abort her own potential offspring, when we are wired to naturally want to do the exact opposite. In situations where it happens, it is fallout--a sign of something gone awry. (As is an unintended pregnancy.) I'm not talking about something gone awry with the female alone, but in the entire surrounding systems. Unfortunately, until we begin to look at such dynamics, these females will be forced to shoulder the burden themselves, sometimes at great cost.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
As somone else pointed out, it's not a case of the child necessarily being "mature" enough to make this decision by herself. VG said that most minors try to find an adult that will listen to them and advise and counsel them. For many different reasons, some minors feel like they won't get that from the parents.
Then they should emancipate themselves from their parents and ask this other adult to be their legal guardian. This picking and choosing based on the issue is just jerking around the legal guardians.
Well mommy and daddy may get mad at me so I'll go ask Cindy's mom. Well if Cindy's mom wants to take responsibility for this decision then she should either take the girl in and become legal guardian or start paying child support.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Unfortunately, until we begin to look at such dynamics, these females will be forced to shoulder the burden themselves, sometimes at great cost.
Usually you are so good but this is so sexist. Guys have the exact same interest, except personal health issues, as the woman. No woman bares the burden of abortion themselves. The man faces nearly the same burdens but with zero authority to take actions.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Usually you are so good but this is so sexist. Guys have the exact same interest, except personal health issues, as the woman. No woman bares the burden of abortion themselves. The man faces nearly the same burdens but with zero authority to take actions.
YOU may face nearly the same burdens (although I think you discount how much of a burden the physical aspects can be), but many men simply walk away from an unwanted pregnancy. It's getting slightly trickier to do, but it can and is still done quite often. A woman cannot walk away.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
YOU may face nearly the same burdens (although I think you discount how much of a burden the physical aspects can be), but many men simply walk away from an unwanted pregnancy. It's getting slightly trickier to do, but it can and is still done quite often. A woman cannot walk away.
Yes she can, metaphorically speaking, it's called abortion.
Which came first,
the bad idea or me befallen by it?
Well mommy and daddy may get mad at me so I'll go ask Cindy's mom. Well if Cindy's mom wants to take responsibility for this decision then she should either take the girl in and become legal guardian or start paying child support.
In my own experiences numerous "adults" enabled my daughter running away from home, among other things, and on several occasions, such situations led to my daughter being psychiatrically hospitalised.
These individuals are 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions. If they have not yet owned such accountability, they are situations that have yet to fully play out.
It used to infuriate me how others will enable dyfunctional situations and not accept accountabilty. Now I realise they do accept the consequences--it's just not the legislative kind. And half the time people are unaware of the actual consequences of their actions, so they experience it unconsciously. In the "why me?" sense.
It doesn't mean the parent is not also responsible for the financial accountability they have signed on for.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Yes she can, metaphorically speaking, it's called abortion.
No, that's not the same as walking away. She has to pay for it, she has to go to the appointment, she has to attend the counseling sessions, she has to have the surgery itself with whatever pain, complications, etc. might be involved. The man doesn't have to do any of those things ... in fact, except for paying, he couldn't do any of them for her if he wanted to.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Comments
I certainly agree with all of this.
Do you honestly believe that every minor in an abortion clinic who is not accompanied by a parent is doing so because the pregnancy is the result of incest or they would be beaten if the parent found out?
This is actually just a question, but do you think this should be the case for all medical procedures including cosmetic?
It took me a four year court battle just to get legal responsibility for my child. I'll be fucked if you think I'm gladly handing that over to anyone for any reason. Stay the fuck out of family's lives. Period. Raise your kid how you want within the boundaries of the law. I'll do the same. You have not a clue as to what's best for my or any child but your own.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Is abortion the only health issue you are going to try to legislate for others?
cross the river to the eastside
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'd agree with this. If social services removed the child from the parent's care than that is another story, but if the state deems the parents to be legal guardians and therefore competent to make decisions for the minor, than it is the parents perogative.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I'm not doubting your experience. I'm calling you on your statements. You are generalizing, and stating things that you cannot possibly prove.
Even if by same unbelievable string of coincidences, every single underage girl you knew from your work at the clinic was there trying to escape future incest and/or beatings, this doesn't afford you the right to state that EVERY girl does so for such a reason. This is basic logic.
I may seem like I'm nit-picking, but I generally find that those who make sweeping and false generalizations on which to base their arguement, are standing on pretty weak ground.
But hey, that's just "my experiences."
- Dan
If the parents are detrimental to the health of their child (preventing life saving treatment) than, I think that is grounds for removal of the child from their parents. At 16 can you not make your own decisions? If a 16 year old refuses treatment, that is their perogative, but a parent denying such chemotherapy for instance is unfit.
This is not:
Do you see how the latter contradicts the former?
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Well played
No, the issue is abortion. It's right there in the thread title. You seem to letting your strong position on parental rights cloud your understanding of the fact that this is specifically an abortion issue. Taking into consideration the fact that we're talking about minors and their guardians, how much power should the govt., or the parents, for that matter, have over the reproductive choices of a teenage female? The question isn't over the removal of the parental rights. It should be about the rights of the pregnant teenager to make her own decisions and the restrictions placed on her by the government.
If the minor was so able to make these life altering decisions with no parental involvement then they should have been mature enough to become emancipated minors long before they got to the point in their life where they needed an abortion.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I agree with you here.
I'm wondering if VictoryGin is saying that if a young girl is at the point where she feels it is necessary to get an abortion without parental support, that, itself, is a good reason. The underlying issues were set into play long before such a situation, by the family system. We all have our ideas on what is good/not-good reasoning, and in the end, how the individual girl feels is what counts at that time.
Apparently some people disagree.
I definitely would question the intentions of the person involved in helping an underage emotional child take such a huge step, whether a boyfriend, or an abortion clinic worker. Each adult is responsible for their own personal agenda that is brought into the situation. We all have our personal blindspots.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
It doesn't seem like you're nit-picking, it seems like you didn't read or understand what I said:
I said in my experience, most minors bring parents. The ones who don't, have a very good reason.
I did not say that every single woman in the nation who is a minor and doesn't bring parents is due to incent or abuse.
Now who is on weak ground?
cross the river to the eastside
I agree with what I think you and angelica are saying ... by the time a girl is old enough to be pregnant, she either has the sort of relationship with her parents that enables her to go to them, or she doesn't. We can't legislate it into existence, as much as we might like to. I too think that the minority of girls who don't have a relative with them in most cases have a very good reason for it.
Really?
Hmmmm...
You tell me?
- Dan
As somone else pointed out, it's not a case of the child necessarily being "mature" enough to make this decision by herself. VG said that most minors try to find an adult that will listen to them and advise and counsel them. For many different reasons, some minors feel like they won't get that from the parents.
You, because you actively avoid quantifying "good reason".
When my daughter began running away at age 13 I would call the police when she was being harboured by neigbours or friends. In our province, the police will find and talk to such children, and even encourage them to return home. Yet they do not force a child over the age of 12 to go home, in case it is family abuse (which takes all kinds of forms) that is causing the problem.
I felt immense lack of control. That lack of control reflected the fact that I had an immense lack of control of my own family system. The police could not give me such control, it was something I eventually learned to adapt to. By accepting my own lack of family control, I learned to earn authentic family respect and furthermore to resolve the problems with my daughter. We earned our reconciliation through problem solving, rather than by dominance and control.
I'm saddened when any female is lowered on inner/outer resources to a degree that she feels pushed to where she needs to abort her own potential offspring, when we are wired to naturally want to do the exact opposite. In situations where it happens, it is fallout--a sign of something gone awry. (As is an unintended pregnancy.) I'm not talking about something gone awry with the female alone, but in the entire surrounding systems. Unfortunately, until we begin to look at such dynamics, these females will be forced to shoulder the burden themselves, sometimes at great cost.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Well mommy and daddy may get mad at me so I'll go ask Cindy's mom. Well if Cindy's mom wants to take responsibility for this decision then she should either take the girl in and become legal guardian or start paying child support.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Yes she can, metaphorically speaking, it's called abortion.
the bad idea or me befallen by it?
Way to oversimplify.
In my own experiences numerous "adults" enabled my daughter running away from home, among other things, and on several occasions, such situations led to my daughter being psychiatrically hospitalised.
These individuals are 100% responsible for the consequences of their actions. If they have not yet owned such accountability, they are situations that have yet to fully play out.
It used to infuriate me how others will enable dyfunctional situations and not accept accountabilty. Now I realise they do accept the consequences--it's just not the legislative kind. And half the time people are unaware of the actual consequences of their actions, so they experience it unconsciously. In the "why me?" sense.
It doesn't mean the parent is not also responsible for the financial accountability they have signed on for.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!