don't we as people have some standard to live by? I mean we know that taking something that does not belong to you is bad. So to start this off, we have land stolen from others and given away. It's not fair, it's not good. Now the question, should israel exist? If jewish people want a land mainly for themselves they have every right to have that land. But you can not take it from someone else. Then fight the same people who want it back. should israel exist and does it have the right to exist are two different questions I think.
Then we can get into the religious context. Some Jews feel that Israel has no right to exist. This is what they believe based on their religion (judaism)
(Don't worry, I don't mind questions. I enjoy opens debates and discussion.)
good.
i don't want to talk about religion, mainly because i'm not religious...
not at all, actually.
and i don't want to discuss anything historical prior to 1947,
and jewish/arab historical right (or lack of) to live here, on this specific piece of land.
because i'm less familar with that history,
and, as i've said before, i don't talk of things i know nothing about.
i'm out. too late for me.
waking up in 5 hours (damn finals!)
it's been a pleasure, and a challenge.
we'll continue this (i hope) tomorrow.
(we = myself + anyone else)
i don't want to talk about religion, mainly because i'm not religious...
not at all, actually.
and i don't want to discuss anything historical prior to 1947,
and jewish/arab historical right (or lack of) to live here, on this specific piece of land.
because i'm less familar with that history,
and, as i've said before, i don't talk of things i know nothing about.
don't we as people have some standard to live by? I mean we know that taking something that does not belong to you is bad. So to start this off, we have land stolen from others and given away. It's not fair, it's not good. Now the question, should israel exist? If jewish people want a land mainly for themselves they have every right to have that land. But you can not take it from someone else. Then fight the same people who want it back. should israel exist and does it have the right to exist are two different questions I think.
I don't think they are different questions, they may have been back in 1948 but not anymore. Israel exists and many Israelis were born on that land since its creation, I believe it is a little too late to question their right to live there. Jewish people needed a land for themselves, the method used was a poor one but it happened. Today Israelis are born in their country and it's too late to take it away from them.
And it is unfair to the Palestinians who lived there and were minding their own business, but as everybody seems to say here two wrongs don't make a right.
It would be best if everyone tried to adapt to the fairest solution found until now, but that's something else.
I don't think they are different questions, they may have been back in 1948 but not anymore. Israel exists and many Israelis were born on that land since its creation, I believe it is a little too late to question their right to live there. Jewish people needed a land for themselves, the method used was a poor one but it happened. Today Israelis are born in their country and it's too late to take it away from them.
And it is unfair to the Palestinians who lived there and were minding their own business, but as everybody seems to say here two wrongs don't make a right.
It would be best if everyone tried to adapt to the fairest solution found until now, but that's something else.
Of course, now that it's around, what should be done. That's what I thought also, then I started thinkng something. If Israel was not given any more US aid. what would happen to israel?
I kinda feel.. One man one vote. give the israelis and palesinians one vote. let them all live together. a two state solution is not a solution, it's just another problem.
Of course it's all easier said than done. But that's how I think it should be, Jews,christians and whatever else lived in a relative peace on that land before Israel was created, they lived in Spain working on art and science together, they live in almost every country now in modern times in relative peace with one another.
Of course, now that it's around, what should be done. That's what I thought also, then I started thinkng something. If Israel was not given any more US aid. what would happen to israel?
I kinda feel.. One man one vote. give the israelis and palesinians one vote. let them all live together. a two state solution is not a solution, it's just another problem.
Of course it's all easier said than done. But that's how I think it should be, Jews,christians and whatever else lived in a relative peace on that land before Israel was created, they lived in Spain working on art and science together, they live in almost every country now in modern times in relative peace with one another.
So it could happen.
----
Uh wrong again, jews and arabs did not live in peace before 1948. do you know anything about the Hebron massacres?
Uh wrong again, jews and arabs did not live in peace before 1948. do you know anything about the Hebron massacres?
I said relative peace, also, those were rioters, crazy rioters. That was hardly a reason to take the entire land for themselves whatever years later.
I should also remind you that when that massacre was going on, many jews found help with arabs who they lived with or close to. Letting them into their homes for protection.
Also not only arabs were involved in the riots, a few jewish people also.
i think i've already made it clear that in my opinion, israel crossed quite a bit of red lines. i also think that hezbullah crossed quite a few lines as well. both sides should be dealt properly by international organizations. the difference is, that i don't find hezbullah a legitimate armed force, and if the lebanese government can't neutralize it, then the matter should be taken into international hands.
if someone does something wrong - it cannot be ignored.
as i said before,
though i live here,
my knowledge of local history becomes more blurry the more it steers away further into the past.
it's not something i'm proud of, but, it enables me to deal better with what i believe is the most important question: o.k. shit all around and in every direction.
what NOW?
I said relative peace, also, those were rioters, crazy rioters. That was hardly a reason to take the entire land for themselves whatever years later.
I should also remind you that when that massacre was going on, many jews found help with arabs who they lived with or close to. Letting them into their homes for protection.
Also not only arabs were involved in the riots, a few jewish people also.
i think i've already made it clear that in my opinion, israel crossed quite a bit of red lines. i also think that hezbullah crossed quite a few lines as well. both sides should be dealt properly by international organizations. the difference is, that i don't find hezbullah a legitimate armed force, and if the lebanese government can't neutralize it, then the matter should be taken into international hands.
if someone does something wrong - it cannot be ignored.
as i said before,
though i live here,
my knowledge of local history becomes more blurry the more it steers away further into the past.
it's not something i'm proud of, but, it enables me to deal better with what i believe is the most important question: o.k. shit all around and in every direction.
what NOW?
Goldstar, thanks for jumping in. Having an average Israeli here to show that not all Israelis are war mongering hawks may be quite helpful. I just dont think the people on here who have never been to the region really understand the complexity of the situation or the history. Your insight would be helpful...
if we really want to intelligently discuss this issue here maybe we can ask Goldstar to see if he can find a Palestinian Arab to join us here to present both sides of what life is like on both sides. thoughts?
if we really want to intelligently discuss this issue here maybe we can ask Goldstar to see if he can find a Palestinian Arab to join us here to present both sides of what life is like on both sides. thoughts?
i don't know any palestinians.
(you should have mentioned this 3 weeks ago,
since i just got back from reserve duty in the jericho area...
i could have tried talking to someone)
what i can try doing is find someone in one of my classes who would like to discuss this,
but that might take longer than we want,
because it's finals time right now, and the spring period starts feb 25th.
but i'll see what i can do.
i don't know any palestinians.
(you should have mentioned this 3 weeks ago,
since i just got back from reserve duty in the jericho area...
i could have tried talking to someone)
what i can try doing is find someone in one of my classes who would like to discuss this,
but that might take longer than we want,
because it's finals time right now, and the spring period starts feb 25th.
but i'll see what i can do.
This is a very touchy subject around this place so I wont go into it too much. I just thought a healthy discussion with people who live in the region would go a long way to educate people on both sides of the argument that goes on here.
There are plenty of Palestinians in the Old City. Where do you live? Was in Bethelhem and Hebron in November. Also Jerusalem, Rosh Pina, Tel Aviv, Petra.
This is a very touchy subject around this place so I wont go into it too much. I just thought a healthy discussion with people who live in the region would go a long way to educate people on both sides of the argument that goes on here.
There are plenty of Palestinians in the Old City. Where do you live? Was in Bethelhem and Hebron in November. Also Jerusalem, Rosh Pina, Tel Aviv, Petra.
i go to hebrew U in jerusalem.
i think that this discussion deserves a different thread, don't you?
since i know this type of ammo, a few things:
1. i know how much we shot. in total it shouldn't be more than a million, but that really doesn't matter. i'm sure other sources are more reliable than i am.
2. the "dud" percentage for these things (which were extensively used by american forces in iraq) is 5%, so that enormous 33.3% comes as a bit of a shock, and with a bit of skepticism. as someone mentioned before: "who counted them?"
3. yeah. it sucks. quite a few people from my reserve unit have already been released from duty because they couldn't mentally handle what they were doing, and i'm pretty sure that had i been there at the war, the same woud have happened to me.
if you think israel (or israelis) take pleasure in this,
you're overly twisted.
Seeing as how I'm an expert, I thought I'd chime in. There called Blu 42's. Predominantly distributed via MLRS Multiple Launch Rocket Systems.
During the Gulf War the Iraqi army got on an open net to coalition forces to beg "STOP THE RAIN OF METAL".
As a Combat Engineer I specialized in all sorts of demo. I can tell you all about these things. And yeah if they don't go off upon impact, they can be pretty nasty little fuckers to deal with.
"The basic MLRS tactical rocket warhead contains 644 M77 munitions, which are dispensed above the target in mid-air. The dual-purpose bomblets are armed during freefall and a simple drag ribbon orients the bomblets for impact. Each MLRS launcher can deliver almost 8,000 munitions in less than 60 seconds at ranges exceeding 32km."
when you achieve a position of power which enables you to change the things in this world, i encourage you to do what you believe is right.
until then, i encourage you to put proper use to your voting rights, and choose the leaders who you believe represent a better policy (in you opinion).
because the government (mine, yours, whatever) is the body in-charge of that kind of policy. what we as "little people" can do is vote.
i don't think you shouldn't criticize what you see as wrong or unjust. but i hope that whatever anyone says, comes after inspecting the subject through and through, from every possible side.
But dont count on getting people who want insight on this board. people around here are very negative on the subject of israel and I doubt any information will change that.
Enough news stories and reports on the amount. You'll have to do a search for whatever articles on them you want.
I'm not sure how you figure your amount of 1 million is any more accurate, you count everyone you dropped?
Enough high ranking generals (?)in israel have talked about what they did as a crime.
Plus this "dud" percentage, yeah, if it makes any differene, whatever many blow up, some don't. any better?
I never said anything about pleasure, don't know where you got that from, anyway, what israel did was wrong.
So now we are left with your 1 million, like that's a low amount.
Governments screw up. Kinda like ours does. Why are you attacking one guy who at least has the balls enough to step up, defend his country with his life, rather than hide behind a keyboard.
first of all, i feel this discussion is turning back to an onslaught, which is fine by me,
but instead of taking part in this, i'll just stand here and watch.
but anyway:
israel left lebanon nearly 7 years ago. the border with lebanon is set according to the U.N resolution in 1947 of creating a jewish state on (some of) the land of what was then known as palestine, and what i call israel (but that's a totally different discussion).
if israel isn't in lebanon, i don't see ANY justification to any act of violence.
"so called kidnapping" - uuumm. as far as i know, it's kidnapping. regarding where the soldiers were (which country's ground) - good point. i don't know about that, and i'll look into it. if they were on lebanese ground, then they are prisoners of war, and as such, deserve certain rights which no one knows if those rights are being kept (red cross visits etc.)
regardless, what you said makes me ask another ("bigger") question:
do you think israel should exist?
(not asking in order to attack you. asking because i want to know)
This is a very hostile board when it comes to Israel and Jewish people generally and that belief system is reinforced by the powers that be here. Sad but true. But worry not, this is the aberrant radical underbelly of America. The rest of us aren't so hostile....
thanks for your info. as a fighter in an MLRS unit, i can only assure everyone else here that your info is accurate.
(MrBrian - that's how i "know" how many of these little bombs fell over lebanon, since i know how many MLRS m-270 rockets were fired)
exodus...
first: thank you for your support. i know there are a lot of opinionated people around here,
specifically regarding this subject, but i'm alright with that, since it means people care.
this is post-modernism at its finest: 1 event, multiple versions. this is what compromise is all about.
if someone has something to say, they should say it, whether or not i "like" it.
but: if i'm going to listen to someone, i expect to be given the same amount of respect and attention,
and, despite what you've mentioned, i feel there are quite a few people around here who are willing to do that. their voices just aren't the ones being heard.
thanks for your info. as a fighter in an MLRS unit, i can only assure everyone else here that your info is accurate.
(MrBrian - that's how i "know" how many of these little bombs fell over lebanon, since i know how many MLRS m-270 rockets were fired)
exodus...
first: thank you for your support. i know there are a lot of opinionated people around here,
specifically regarding this subject, but i'm alright with that, since it means people care.
this is post-modernism at its finest: 1 event, multiple versions. this is what compromise is all about.
if someone has something to say, they should say it, whether or not i "like" it.
but: if i'm going to listen to someone, i expect to be given the same amount of respect and attention,
and, despite what you've mentioned, i feel there are quite a few people around here who are willing to do that. their voices just aren't the ones being heard.
Comments
good.
i don't want to talk about religion, mainly because i'm not religious...
not at all, actually.
and i don't want to discuss anything historical prior to 1947,
and jewish/arab historical right (or lack of) to live here, on this specific piece of land.
because i'm less familar with that history,
and, as i've said before, i don't talk of things i know nothing about.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
waking up in 5 hours (damn finals!)
it's been a pleasure, and a challenge.
we'll continue this (i hope) tomorrow.
(we = myself + anyone else)
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
Fair enough, we'll speak later.
I don't think they are different questions, they may have been back in 1948 but not anymore. Israel exists and many Israelis were born on that land since its creation, I believe it is a little too late to question their right to live there. Jewish people needed a land for themselves, the method used was a poor one but it happened. Today Israelis are born in their country and it's too late to take it away from them.
And it is unfair to the Palestinians who lived there and were minding their own business, but as everybody seems to say here two wrongs don't make a right.
It would be best if everyone tried to adapt to the fairest solution found until now, but that's something else.
Of course, now that it's around, what should be done. That's what I thought also, then I started thinkng something. If Israel was not given any more US aid. what would happen to israel?
I kinda feel.. One man one vote. give the israelis and palesinians one vote. let them all live together. a two state solution is not a solution, it's just another problem.
Of course it's all easier said than done. But that's how I think it should be, Jews,christians and whatever else lived in a relative peace on that land before Israel was created, they lived in Spain working on art and science together, they live in almost every country now in modern times in relative peace with one another.
So it could happen.
----
Uh wrong again, jews and arabs did not live in peace before 1948. do you know anything about the Hebron massacres?
I said relative peace, also, those were rioters, crazy rioters. That was hardly a reason to take the entire land for themselves whatever years later.
I should also remind you that when that massacre was going on, many jews found help with arabs who they lived with or close to. Letting them into their homes for protection.
Also not only arabs were involved in the riots, a few jewish people also.
if someone does something wrong - it cannot be ignored.
as i said before,
though i live here,
my knowledge of local history becomes more blurry the more it steers away further into the past.
it's not something i'm proud of, but, it enables me to deal better with what i believe is the most important question: o.k. shit all around and in every direction.
what NOW?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
agreed....finally
Goldstar, thanks for jumping in. Having an average Israeli here to show that not all Israelis are war mongering hawks may be quite helpful. I just dont think the people on here who have never been to the region really understand the complexity of the situation or the history. Your insight would be helpful...
i don't know any palestinians.
(you should have mentioned this 3 weeks ago,
since i just got back from reserve duty in the jericho area...
i could have tried talking to someone)
what i can try doing is find someone in one of my classes who would like to discuss this,
but that might take longer than we want,
because it's finals time right now, and the spring period starts feb 25th.
but i'll see what i can do.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
This is a very touchy subject around this place so I wont go into it too much. I just thought a healthy discussion with people who live in the region would go a long way to educate people on both sides of the argument that goes on here.
There are plenty of Palestinians in the Old City. Where do you live? Was in Bethelhem and Hebron in November. Also Jerusalem, Rosh Pina, Tel Aviv, Petra.
i go to hebrew U in jerusalem.
i think that this discussion deserves a different thread, don't you?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
Seeing as how I'm an expert, I thought I'd chime in. There called Blu 42's. Predominantly distributed via MLRS Multiple Launch Rocket Systems.
During the Gulf War the Iraqi army got on an open net to coalition forces to beg "STOP THE RAIN OF METAL".
As a Combat Engineer I specialized in all sorts of demo. I can tell you all about these things. And yeah if they don't go off upon impact, they can be pretty nasty little fuckers to deal with.
http://www.big-ordnance.com/subs/BLU42B_mine3.JPG.psd.jpg
"The basic MLRS tactical rocket warhead contains 644 M77 munitions, which are dispensed above the target in mid-air. The dual-purpose bomblets are armed during freefall and a simple drag ribbon orients the bomblets for impact. Each MLRS launcher can deliver almost 8,000 munitions in less than 60 seconds at ranges exceeding 32km."
Governments screw up. Kinda like ours does. Why are you attacking one guy who at least has the balls enough to step up, defend his country with his life, rather than hide behind a keyboard.
Who knew?
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
This is a very hostile board when it comes to Israel and Jewish people generally and that belief system is reinforced by the powers that be here. Sad but true. But worry not, this is the aberrant radical underbelly of America. The rest of us aren't so hostile....
thanks for your info. as a fighter in an MLRS unit, i can only assure everyone else here that your info is accurate.
(MrBrian - that's how i "know" how many of these little bombs fell over lebanon, since i know how many MLRS m-270 rockets were fired)
exodus...
first: thank you for your support. i know there are a lot of opinionated people around here,
specifically regarding this subject, but i'm alright with that, since it means people care.
this is post-modernism at its finest: 1 event, multiple versions. this is what compromise is all about.
if someone has something to say, they should say it, whether or not i "like" it.
but: if i'm going to listen to someone, i expect to be given the same amount of respect and attention,
and, despite what you've mentioned, i feel there are quite a few people around here who are willing to do that. their voices just aren't the ones being heard.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/pearljam_to_israel/index.html
10/03/05 philadelphia
05/09/06 toronto
05/10/06 toronto
06/01/06 e. rutherford
06/03/06 e. rutherford
09/30/06 athens
06/12/07 munich
Welcome