Gunman kills many at Salt Lake City mall

jeffbr

dunkman wrote:

there would have been no columbine
no amish killings
no mall killings yesterday
there would not be 10+ kids killed per week in the States alone



of course people would still kill each other and of course they would use knives.... but as Soulsinging said... if someone stabbed me with a knife then at least i could fight that person off.. if he shot me in the face with a gun i doubt i would be able to throw a punch.. i could maybe throw some brains at him, but i'm not sure.


stupid stupid argument used by stupid stupid people

The other stupid argument is that we will be able to get rid of guns. Laws will take guns from law abiding people. But this panacea of creating a gun free world is delusional.

jeffbr

UKDave wrote:

So make it more difficult for them and have stronger controls :rolleyes:

Which stronger controls? What specifically are you looking for? We have many, many gun laws on the books here. What new law will create the vision you have?

soulsinging

western pearl wrote:

Calling me a stupid stupid person drives your point right home doesn't it? Real mature. So you really think that all of these large incidents wouldn't have happened if guns didn't exist? You don't think they would have found some other way? The columbine killers had already made pipe bombs and were actually going to use propane bombs in the massacre but they failed. Point is, whether through bombs or homemade guns. Anybody can look up how to make bombs or even homemade guns on the internet. People WILL find a way to kill others.

"but the failed"

point one in our favor... it's not NEARLY as easy to kill large amounts of people without a gun. bombs are tough to make and not just any idiot can snap at work and build a bomb. some would, but it would be fewer. and no way would this guy have killed more than one person if he'd been using a knife... he'd have been stopped in no time.

UKDave

jeffbr wrote:

Which stronger controls? What specifically are you looking for? We have many, many gun laws on the books here. What new law will create the vision you have?

There are plenty of examples around the western world, the US has the most "gun friendly" culture and laws and surprise surprise it has the highest per capita gun related deaths in the developed nations... go figure :rolleyes:

western pearl

soulsinging wrote:

"but the failed"

point one in our favor... it's not NEARLY as easy to kill large amounts of people without a gun. bombs are tough to make and not just any idiot can snap at work and build a bomb. some would, but it would be fewer. and no way would this guy have killed more than one person if he'd been using a knife... he'd have been stopped in no time.

Do you have experience? I'm sure that, in your "world w/o guns" kids could figure out how to make an effective one through trial and error. If their propane bomb would have went off in the cafeteria, it probably would have killed three or four times as many people, maybe more. What would you be calling for then, background checks on people buying everyday household items?

miller8966

western pearl wrote:

Calling me a stupid stupid person drives your point right home doesn't it? Real mature. So you really think that all of these large incidents wouldn't have happened if guns didn't exist? You don't think they would have found some other way? The columbine killers had already made pipe bombs and were actually going to use propane bombs in the massacre but they failed. Point is, whether through bombs or homemade guns. Anybody can look up how to make bombs or even homemade guns on the internet. People WILL find a way to kill others.

Thats just how dunkman argues.

Your post is absoultely right...before guns i bet there were no deaths right? Like i bet no one ever died during the middle ages.

IMO every law abiding citizen should own a gun and be educated on gun use.

soulsinging

western pearl wrote:

Do you have experience? I'm sure that, in your "world w/o guns" kids could figure out how to make an effective one through trial and error. If their propane bomb would have went off in the cafeteria, it probably would have killed three or four times as many people, maybe more. What would you be calling for then, background checks on people buying everyday household items?

no, i would not. i would say shit happens. but id rather 1 kid out of 100 manage a successful propane bomb than 100 kids out of 100 easily get a gun and kill 10 people. funny thing is, i dont advocate tracking gun purchases or background checks for every buy. fancy that? im not for MORE regulation, im for SMARTER regulation, which i happen to think means less. but to deny that the easy access to guns by ANYONE in this country contributes at all to high rates of death by guns is the stupidest fucking thing i've ever heard and it's people like you and dunk that make sensible gun laws impossible. he believes all gun are good, and you believe guns can do no wrong.

LeilaMoonTurtle

your statement is nonsensical/apathetic.

MakingWaves wrote:

I'm just glad it didn't happen in the South so I don't have to hear ignorant people say things about the South.

soulsinging

miller8966 wrote:

Thats just how dunkman argues.

Your post is absoultely right...before guns i bet there were no deaths right? Like i bet no one ever died during the middle ages.

IMO every law abiding citizen should own a gun and be educated on gun use.

i wrote an essay about giving children guns at birth. jonathan swift would have been proud. im a bit scared to learn it is more realistic than i'd thought.

western pearl

miller8966 wrote:

Thats just how dunkman argues.

Your post is absoultely right...before guns i bet there were no deaths right? Like i bet no one ever died during the middle ages.

IMO every law abiding citizen should own a gun and be educated on gun use.

In the words of the great Ted Nugent (note sarcasm people, i don't think everything he preaches is right),

"Teach your kids to hunt so you don't have to hunt for your kids."

jeffbr

UKDave wrote:

There are plenty of examples around the western world, the US has the most "gun friendly" culture and laws and surprise surprise it has the highest per capita gun related deaths in the developed nations... go figure :rolleyes:

Evasion. Which laws specifically should be enacted here, and what effects to you see those laws having?

"culture" is an interesting phenomenon, and may explain things that laws (or lack thereof) cannot.

UKDave

jeffbr wrote:

Evasion. Which laws specifically should be enacted here, and what effects to you see those laws having?

"culture" is an interesting phenomenon, and may explain things that laws (or lack thereof) cannot.

No evasion just at work and didn't expect to have to come up with your new gun laws and a paper on their effects whilst spinning numerous plates here

Go write a paper on how I should complete the 4 rush jobs I've got on at the same time

But yes it is a mixture of culture and law, nothing operates in isolation...

Collin

western pearl wrote:

So you really think that all of these large incidents wouldn't have happened if guns didn't exist?

I think it would be more difficult.

You don't think they would have found some other way?

They might.

The columbine killers had already made pipe bombs and were actually going to use propane bombs in the massacre but they failed.

There's a reason they failed, because it's not as easy as you make it out to be. Sure you can find info on the internet and buy everything you need. In chemistry we learned how to make xtc and nuclear bombs. That doesn't mean we are able to do so.

People WILL find a way to kill others.

Not so hard, knives, axes, ropes ... but none are as effective as guns.

even flow?

The fact that if a nut can't get a gun and has to resort to a knife or a bomb that may or may not go off, is the fact that the shocked, innocent people can have a go at the loser and the police will only have to take his beaten and dead body away. Well, at least it would work that way on the ground.

I haven't ran across to many really tough people when they don't have a weapon in their hands. Better yet a gun.

western pearl

Collin wrote:

In chemistry we learned how to make xtc and nuclear bombs. That doesn't mean we are able to do so.

quote]

Call me crazy but i think making a homemade pipe bomb might just be a wee bit easier to make than a nuclear bomb. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Ebizzie

3 pages and no one has yet to mention that this is yet another fucked up, mentally ill child who went off the deep end. There is no law that will ever mandate mental health tests for people to qualify to be free on the streets. We can go 'round and 'round on the gun control issue, but it really has very little to do with this case nor any other. Guns were simply the weapon of choice to fulfill their fucked up fantasies.

You can legislate away all forms of weaponry, you can legislate mandatory iron bubbles to protect each and every one of us in public, but you can't legislate away one's desire to kill. Until that insatiable thirst for death and destruction amongst humans is eliminated, we will ALWAYS deal with atrocities like this.

dunkman

western pearl wrote:

The columbine killers had already made pipe bombs and were actually going to use propane bombs in the massacre but they failed.

thank you for proving my point

dunkman

miller8966 wrote:

Like i bet no one ever died during the middle ages.

of course they did... they had sharp pointy turnips and sometimes they poured boiling oil over each other, etc, etc, etc.

but as the Middle Ages are probably the most war happy era of modern man... if they had guns they would have killed a fuckload more...

UKDave

Ebizzie wrote:

3 pages and no one has yet to mention that this is yet another fucked up, mentally ill child who went off the deep end. There is no law that will ever mandate mental health tests for people to qualify to be free on the streets. We can go 'round and 'round on the gun control issue, but it really has very little to do with this case nor any other. Guns were simply the weapon of choice to fulfill their fucked up fantasies.

You can legislate away all forms of weaponry, you can legislate mandatory iron bubbles to protect each and every one of us in public, but you can't legislate away one's desire to kill. Until that insatiable thirst for death and destruction amongst humans is eliminated, we will ALWAYS deal with atrocities like this.

Do you know these details about the individual?

Nobody is saying wrap everyone in cotton wool, that is another over dramaticism of the argument. You can still do an awful lot to take away / restrict access to the most effective one on one killing machine - the gun.

Collin

western pearl wrote:

Call me crazy but i think making a homemade pipe bomb might just be a wee bit easier to make than a nuclear bomb. Correct me if i'm wrong.

You are absolutely right.

The gun the the perfect tool for a person gone mad. Instant killing. With a pipe bombs you first need to get the info on how to make one, then go out and buy all the things and make it. Then you have one pipe bomb and with a bit of luck you will be able to kill two guys.