Some people, it appears, love spreading their misery. I can't see any other reason for displaying such negativity and anger towards someone elses difference in perspective.
i find that people who do that are afraid to make such a huge change in their life or are resentfull for not pursuing their dreams with the vigor that others do. It's easier for them to put down those that dare to follow that different path than face the fact that they decided not to.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
apparently you read far more into my posts than is intended....i said "in all seriousness"....meaning, truly asking what others here are doing in support of this idea...things they realistically think CAN be done to change this situation. i was actually hoping for more ideas.
i am well aware of the purpose of this and all the forums thank you..i was merely asking a legitimate question, also participating in the discussion. and the fact that you take it beyond to 'ed should just shut up and sing'....:rolleyes: truly shows how MUCH you read into my comments falsely.....b/c i adore ed's politics, his lyrics...and his speaking out.
my apologies for actually asking for NEW ideas of what others may be doing to forward this idea of ending this war pronto. all that are listed, all good of course and i have done my share of such things...i just thought maybe, there was something else others have thought of that i have not, or simply sharing ideas beyond 'the war should stop'....that's all. i am not suggesting people stop their 'end the war' threads, we all need to vent...if i am uninterested in what is said, i simply disregard the posts...here i was truly interesting in more IDEAS beyond simply discussion, and more towards action.
First off, thank you for clarifying because, to me, it did seem a bit like you were minimizing the efforts in communication and discussions made here on the board. Secondly, since you agree with the sentiment of bringing the troops home now...it would be nice to hear your ideas on the subject alongside your critique concerning the lack of these in others.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Some people, it appears, love spreading their misery. I can't see any other reason for displaying such negativity and anger towards someone elses difference in perspective.
people rather expend energy criticizing others then doing something about themselves ... not that i'm some saint or martyr - but i do my best and i find that you have to deal with people's cynicism ... it's sad really ...
i find that people who do that are afraid to make such a huge change in their life or are resentfull for not pursuing their dreams with the vigor that others do. It's easier for them to put down those that dare to follow that different path than face the fact that they decided not to.
I absolutely agree.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i find that people who do that are afraid to make such a huge change in their life or are resentfull for not pursuing their dreams with the vigor that others do. It's easier for them to put down those that dare to follow that different path than face the fact that they decided not to.
exactly ... and no one wants to feel guilt ... so, they will rationalize their behaviour as best as possible to not feel any ...
people rather expend energy criticizing others then doing something about themselves ... not that i'm some saint or martyr - but i do my best and i find that you have to deal with people's cynicism ... it's sad really ...
It really is sad. Some people on this board can be so nasty and down right rude when they post their opposing views...and this happens frequently in the real world, too. It's a shame people can't put their differences aside long enough to, at the very least, be considerate of each other.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It really is sad. Some people on this board can be so nasty and down right rude when they post their opposing views...and this happens frequently in the real world, too. It's a shame people can't put their differences aside long enough to, at the very least, be considerate of each other.
and yet the innocent lives are still being lost every single day we're in iraq. back to topic.....get them the fuck home.
It really is sad. Some people on this board can be so nasty and down right rude when they post their opposing views...and this happens frequently in the real world, too. It's a shame people can't put their differences aside long enough to, at the very least, be considerate of each other.
yeah ... its the internet ... wut u gonna do? ... can't be all angels such as yourself ...
do you think just because you are part of the "40 hour week" - you are somehow facing the tough parts in life better than he is?
I agree with the sentiments in your post (and posts that followed), except this part. Che has said he can't deal with reality anymore. He can't read the paper, he can't watch TV, he can't work, etc... So yes, Bootlegger10, you, Abook, my2hands, mammasan are dealing with the tough parts of life better than he is by confronting them. Che by his own admission is dropping out, running away, quitting. That's fine, he certainly has that right and I totally defend his right to do so. But don't confuse that with strength and the ability to face the tough parts of life.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I was against the war, still am. But not being an american citizen i have to say that if your troops are brought home now, it will completely destabalise the Middle East even more so than it has been destabalised at present. Iraq would turn into the world biggest terroist breeding ground and many would be killed in an all out civil war and yet another dictator, and this time a religious extreme islamic nutcase, would take power within a year or two.
However that viewpoint does come from the objective point of view. If i was an american with friends, family, colleagues dying over there, my viewpoint may be very very different.
Why bring them home now? If we do, we'll just have to go back in a few years and the situation will be even worse. You just need face the fact that we have enemies that need to be dealt with. Sure it sucks, but such is life. You talk about the average person just wanted to live in peace. Okay fine, but it's the leaders that are the problem. It is people like Saddam that got this shit going in the first place. We are trying to do away with dictatorships so the chances increase that we never have to fight again. Historically democracies don't fight each other.
I agree with the sentiments in your post (and posts that followed), except this part. Che has said he can't deal with reality anymore. He can't read the paper, he can't watch TV, he can't work, etc... So yes, Bootlegger10, you, Abook, my2hands, mammasan are dealing with the tough parts of life better than he is by confronting them. Che by his own admission is dropping out, running away, quitting. That's fine, he certainly has that right and I totally defend his right to do so. But don't confuse that with strength and the ability to face the tough parts of life.
I don't see it as a weakness to decide to no longer take part in a system you greatly disagree with. It takes a lot of strong will and sacrifice to make the decision Che has. I don't watch tv, the paper is mostly crap so I can see his perspective. He is creating his own reality and taking that initiative to surround himself with the ideals he wants to see in life and making plenty of sacrfices to do so. I don't see either path as lacking strength or dropping out.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I was against the war, still am. But not being an american citizen i have to say that if your troops are brought home now, it will completely destabalise the Middle East even more so than it has been destabalised at present. Iraq would turn into the world biggest terroist breeding ground and many would be killed in an all out civil war and yet another dictator, and this time a religious extreme islamic nutcase, would take power within a year or two.
However that viewpoint does come from the objective point of view. If i was an american with friends, family, colleagues dying over there, my viewpoint may be very very different.
that is a very valid viewpoint and you bring up a lot that has to be taken into consideration. The way i see it our military presense there will not change anything. The majority of the people do not want us there. The majority of their middle class, which you need a large middle class in order to sustain a stable democracy, is gone. We need to pull out our troops and explore other avenues of helping that country survive. We need to seek out help from other countries and institutions, but in order to do so we would need to admit our mistakes and failures and that is something our government is not very fond of or good at doing.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Why bring them home now? If we do, we'll just have to go back in a few years and the situation will be even worse. You just need face the fact that we have enemies that need to be dealt with. Sure it sucks, but such is life. You talk about the average person just wanted to live in peace. Okay fine, but it's the leaders that are the problem. It is people like Saddam that got this shit going in the first place. We are trying to do away with dictatorships so the chances increase that we never have to fight again. Historically democracies don't fight each other.
You need to read up on Central America then and our role in destabalizing their democracies when things were no longer going our way.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I agree with the sentiments in your post (and posts that followed), except this part. Che has said he can't deal with reality anymore. He can't read the paper, he can't watch TV, he can't work, etc... So yes, Bootlegger10, you, Abook, my2hands, mammasan are dealing with the tough parts of life better than he is by confronting them. Che by his own admission is dropping out, running away, quitting. That's fine, he certainly has that right and I totally defend his right to do so. But don't confuse that with strength and the ability to face the tough parts of life.
there is a difference between facing the realities of life and being unable to bear witness ... what is anyone doing here anymore then he is ... all we've done is become immune to the suffering and the corruption ... that's it ... we aren't facing it any more then he is ... we've just learned to accept it ... a far worse fate i say ...
I don't see it as a weakness to decide to no longer take part in a system you greatly disagree with. It takes a lot of strong will and sacrifice to make the decision Che has. I don't watch tv, the paper is mostly crap so I can see his perspective. He is creating his own reality and taking that initiative to surround himself with the ideals he wants to see in life and making plenty of sacrfices to do so. I don't see either path as lacking strength or dropping out.
Cool. That's what I like about differing perspectives. Some can see the move and noble and romantic, others see it as a cop out. I totally understand what you're seeing, but have come to a different conclusion based on the way I've read his posts over the past year.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Why bring them home now? If we do, we'll just have to go back in a few years and the situation will be even worse. You just need face the fact that we have enemies that need to be dealt with. Sure it sucks, but such is life. You talk about the average person just wanted to live in peace. Okay fine, but it's the leaders that are the problem. It is people like Saddam that got this shit going in the first place. We are trying to do away with dictatorships so the chances increase that we never have to fight again. Historically democracies don't fight each other.
Of course they do . You people (I'm sorry to generalise) have got to stop putting western style democracy and freedom on a golden pedestal that creates so much envy it explains all the problems of the world. It suits our societies and our systems sure (and I'm glad for it) but consider different societies, with different cultures and different problems.
Did you ever consider that maybe a democratic system will not work in Irak? That the majority of the country is too poor for that and that the high level of corruption that will arise from oil money will never ensure a free country? The kind of thing which is already observed in some African countries for instance? The only way I ever saw a country achieve democracy was when it's people fought for it, and that doesn't really seem to be the case here.
there is a difference between facing the realities of life and being unable to bear witness ... what is anyone doing here anymore then he is ... all we've done is become immune to the suffering and the corruption ... that's it ... we aren't facing it any more then he is ... we've just learned to accept it ... a far worse fate i say ...
No doubt there is a lot of apathy. But thankfully there are plenty of people who are working for change. It might be on a global level, maybe nationally, some work to make their community a better place. Unfortunately others drop out and become isolated, or don't drop out, but just don't care anymore.
I don't see you as someone who has "just learned to accept it". We may disagree on issues, but you seem like someone who faces problems and looks for solutions. That is far different than checking out.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Cool. That's what I like about differing perspectives. Some can see the move and noble and romantic, others see it as a cop out. I totally understand what you're seeing, but have come to a different conclusion based on the way I've read his posts over the past year.
Yes, it is very cool when we can see where each other is coming from.
I personally think Che is young and still trying to find his path in life. But he's not just playing along and getting by...he's being pro active and bold with his choices, paying attention to the world around him instead of just accepting it as 'life' and shrugging. We are all in charge of what we want our 'life' to be. He has the whole world in front of him and will probably change light years throughout his experiences in life. Right now, i see him as trying to be true to himself, what he values and where he is right now, which is admirable.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
For the ones who had a notion, a notion deep inside
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive
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No doubt there is a lot of apathy. But thankfully there are plenty of people who are working for change. It might be on a global level, maybe nationally, some work to make their community a better place. Unfortunately others drop out and become isolated, or don't drop out, but just don't care anymore.
I don't see you as someone who has "just learned to accept it". We may disagree on issues, but you seem like someone who faces problems and looks for solutions. That is far different than checking out.
i do my best ... and can definitely do better ... but there are parts of me that want to do what he's gonna do ... i truly find it a more nobler existence ... no matter how hard i try - i can never reduce my footprint to what he will be able to do ...
at the end of the day - change is not universal ... we want different things so while i, you, we may be working towards what we consider positive changes - someone else can see that as being bad ... so, in the end - he may be "checking out" of what some may consider to be a problem but a) he isn't part of that problem and b) he's part of a solution to another one ...
in defense of my move to a commune. I agree with abook's view of my status. It could be looked at as dropping out, and in some ways it is, but its not like I am going into a forest alone, never to be heard from again. This is a well respected commune, its not a bunch of hippie dropouts smoking pot and engaging in free love all day. The members of the commune do work just like mainstream society. The difference is, that the commune is self running. They make their own food etc... The live off the grid.
I look at it this way: I am putting my money where my mouth is. I disagree with the way the system is, and I am doing something about it. I believe living in a commune is the way to go, and there are many who disagree and thats fine. But for me, the commune seems to be the way to go.
Moving to a commune to me, means that I am actually going out and living life how I feel it should be lived, how I feel my life should be lived.
I dont think I am weak for doing this. That said, its nerve wracking and scary as well. I have lived in the city my whole life and now am going to live on a commune in rural Virginia.
I think we owe it to ourselves to live our lives. And for me, living my life right now, means moving to a commune. A communal lifestyle, I feel is part of the solution. Its preferable, TO ME at least, to a city life. But thats just my opinion. I am just trying to figure out how to live and keep my sanity.
Instead of being paralyzed all day, angry at the world, angry at Bush, angry at politicians, angry that the world isnt the way I want it to be, I have taken the initiative to do something about it. To start living my life. I dont think this is a bad thing
Of course they do . You people (I'm sorry to generalise) have got to stop putting western style democracy and freedom on a golden pedestal that creates so much envy it explains all the problems of the world. It suits our societies and our systems sure (and I'm glad for it) but consider different societies, with different cultures and different problems.
Did you ever consider that maybe a democratic system will not work in Irak? That the majority of the country is too poor for that and that the high level of corruption that will arise from oil money will never ensure a free country? The kind of thing which is already observed in some African countries for instance? The only way I ever saw a country achieve democracy was when it's people fought for it, and that doesn't really seem to be the case here.
But it is the case here. Most Iraqi's want to give democracy a chance, but they can't get the opportunity because of all the fighting going on. This isn't a full-scale civil war. You have about 10% of the population up in arms and the rest are sitting back waiting for it to stop. But becuase this smal majority causes so many problems and makes so much noise in the media, you go ahead assume that democracy won't work for the Iraqi people.
why don't people understand this ,IRAQUI population hate everything about our democratic ways they will never evr embrace it just put yourselves in their shoes they don't wan't us there at all we invaded their country .....they must be left to sort out their problems/conflicts by themselves imo ....
We are trying to do away with dictatorships so the chances increase that we never have to fight again.
Egypt: President Mohamed Hosni Mubarak has been the President of the Republic since October 14, 1981... the executive power is theoretically divided between the President and the Prime Minister, in practice it rests almost solely with the President who traditionally has been elected in single-candidate elections for more than fifty years
Saudi Arabia: The central institution of the Saudi Arabian government is the Saudi monarchy. The Basic Law of Government adopted in 1992 declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the sons and grandsons of the first king, Abd Al Aziz Al Saud, it also claims that the Qur'an is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of Islamic law
Kuwait: a constitutional monarchy...On the other hand, the government has managed to pass laws in the years 2005-2006 that restrict the freedom of speech. Laws such as the new media law, has become a huge obstacle for writers and citizens who might consider criticizing the government's performance. Lately there have been plenty of news papers writers sent to court for stating their opinions regarding the government or specific ministries performance. A court order to shut down a leading Kuwaiti news paper AlWatanfor three days (first in Kuwait's history). Moreover a magazine editor was sent to jail for criticizing the government action towards a specific incident...
Jordan: Jordan is a constitutional monarchy based on the constitution promulgated on January 8, 1952. Executive authority is vested in the king and his council of ministers. The king signs and executes all laws. His veto power may be overridden by a two-thirds vote of both houses of the National Assembly. He appoints and may dismiss all judges by decree, approves amendments to the constitution, declares war, and commands the armed forces. Cabinet decisions, court judgments, and the national currency are issued in his name. The council of ministers, led by a prime minister, is appointed by the king, who may dismiss other cabinet members at the prime minister's request. The cabinet is responsible to the Chamber of Deputies on matters of general policy and can be forced to resign by a two-thirds vote of "no confidence" by that body.
The constitution provides for three categories of courts: civil, religious, and special. Administratively, Jordan is divided into twelve governorates, each headed by a governor appointed by the king. They are the sole authorities for all government departments and development projects in their respective areas.
The Royal Armed Forces and General Intelligence Department of Jordan are under the control of the king.
Qatar: Since 1995, Emir Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani has ruled Qatar, seizing control of the country from his father Khalifa bin Hamad Al Thani ... Qatar served as the headquarters and one of the main launching sites of the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.... Qatar explicitly uses Wahhabi law as the basis of its government, and the vast majority of its citizens follow this specific Islamic doctrine. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab founded Wahhabism, a puritanical version of Islam which takes a literal interpretation of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
United Arab Emirates: The Presidency and Premiership of the United Arab Emirates is hereditary to the Al Nahyan clan of Abu Dhabi and the Al Maktoum clan of Dubai respectively... Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan was the union's president from the nation's founding until his death on 2 November 2004. The Federal Supreme Council elected his son, Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahayan, president the next day.
Thailand: A military junta overthrew the elected government of Thaksin Shinawatra on 19 September 2006. The junta abrogated the constitution, dissolved Parliament and the Constitutional Court, detained and later removed several members of the government, declared martial law, and appointed one of the King's Privy Councillors, General Surayud Chulanont, as Prime Minister. The junta later wrote a highly abbreviated interim constitution and appointed a panel to draft a permanent constitution. The junta also appointed a 250-member legislature, called by one critic a "chamber of generals".[11][12] The head of the junta was allowed to remove the Prime Minister at any time. The legislature was not allowed to hold a vote of confidence against the Cabinet and the public was not allowed to file comments on bills.[13]
Martial law was partially revoked in January 2007. The junta continues to censor the media and was accused of several other human rights violations. The junta also banned all political activities and meetings.
In 2003, the United States designated Thailand as a major non-NATO ally, which grants Thailand several financial and military benefits derived from the United States...
and now Musharraf is trying his best to maintain power in pakistan by re-writing it's laws. that is why there have been quite a few problems there recently in which the military has been used to "quiet" the public and demonstrators...not to mention the head of their nuclear program selling inforamtion to any willing party. whatever happened to that? so much for concern about WMD in the wrong hands
you are dead wrong, we absolutely support dictatorships and monarchies as long as they are willing to play ball.
not to mention the consolidation of power into our own executive branch. i believe we are moving closely to the edge of a dictatorship that simply changes faces every 8 years. if we are not careful, it will happen. we are not magicly immune to the corruption and lure of absolute power... he has even called himself "the decider"...inferring he makes the call so shut the fuck up and take it
But it is the case here. Most Iraqi's want to give democracy a chance, but they can't get the opportunity because of all the fighting going on. This isn't a full-scale civil war. You have about 10% of the population up in arms and the rest are sitting back waiting for it to stop. But becuase this smal majority causes so many problems and makes so much noise in the media, you go ahead assume that democracy won't work for the Iraqi people.
Even if the wish to give democracy a chance, who is to say it will work? Corruption is already at work in the new Iraqi parliament, and oil production is not yet at it's peak there. Maybe the country is not ready for democracy, and since we don't have problems with all non democratic countries, maybe it would be wise to give the birth of a democracy there some time rather than to speed its arrival by force.
First off, thank you for clarifying because, to me, it did seem a bit like you were minimizing the efforts in communication and discussions made here on the board. Secondly, since you agree with the sentiment of bringing the troops home now...it would be nice to hear your ideas on the subject alongside your critique concerning the lack of these in others.
it was not a *critique*...it was a question. no where in either post was any *criticism* present so i do fail to see where you get that. as in, looking for ideas from others of what to do beyond the *obvious*, most of which has been listed already. i ask, b/c i figure of the many who DO start these kinds of threads...perhaps they have more ideas than ones i have known about/thought of myself....thus why i ASK. i don't have anything new, thus why i don't start threads such of this b/c i sadly don't have any new ideas as to what can be done...so just thought, maybe, someone did. so no, i don't have any ideas to share....if i did, i would most certainly post/share...start a thread...whatever.
i just kinda hoped since there are a few people here who do start these threads regularly, they might have suggestions b/c i certainly don't. i am certainly not minimizing the need for discussion in and of itself. dialogue is VERY important at all levels. i actually thought i was pretty clear about all that, my apologies if it wasn't.
edit - i have been thinking about this since i read/posted here.......do you seriously not pay the federal portion of your taxes to protest the war? that was probably the one idea you listed i would not do.....so i am just curious. the rest, absolutely....but that one just stuck out......
b/c as i said, the rest of your suggestions, i have followed most...i think many of us have...but this i haven't considered, and quite honestly i wouldn't...so i am curious if you truly have taken it that far. especially since it is the very first suggestion you make. kudos to you if ya do, i am quite impressed!
it was not a *critique*...it was a question. no where in either post was any *criticism* present so i do fail to see where you get that. as in, looking for ideas from others of what to do beyond the *obvious*, most of which has been listed already. i ask, b/c i figure of the many who DO start these kinds of threads...perhaps they have more ideas than ones i have known about/thought of myself....thus why i ASK. i don't have anything new, thus why i don't start threads such of this b/c i sadly don't have any new ideas as to what can be done...so just thought, maybe, someone did. so no, i don't have any ideas to share....if i did, i would most certainly post/share...start a thread...whatever.
i just kinda hoped since there are a few people here who do start these threads regularly, they might have suggestions b/c i certainly don't. i am certainly not minimizing the need for discussion in and of itself. dialogue is VERY important at all levels. i actually thought i was pretty clear about all that, my apologies if it wasn't.
No, it was not obvious what your intent was. To me, it did seem to belittle the impact of the post. You have clarified and said that wasn't what you meant and that's fine...but it wasn't obvious initially.
And I'll say it again, spreading the notion that the troops should could home and backing it up with good reasoning is about all you CAN do right now. Now there are plenty of outlets to spread this idea, some being more powerful and reaching further than others...but voicing your concern and voting is all we have.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Comments
i find that people who do that are afraid to make such a huge change in their life or are resentfull for not pursuing their dreams with the vigor that others do. It's easier for them to put down those that dare to follow that different path than face the fact that they decided not to.
First off, thank you for clarifying because, to me, it did seem a bit like you were minimizing the efforts in communication and discussions made here on the board. Secondly, since you agree with the sentiment of bringing the troops home now...it would be nice to hear your ideas on the subject alongside your critique concerning the lack of these in others.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
people rather expend energy criticizing others then doing something about themselves ... not that i'm some saint or martyr - but i do my best and i find that you have to deal with people's cynicism ... it's sad really ...
I absolutely agree.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
exactly ... and no one wants to feel guilt ... so, they will rationalize their behaviour as best as possible to not feel any ...
It really is sad. Some people on this board can be so nasty and down right rude when they post their opposing views...and this happens frequently in the real world, too. It's a shame people can't put their differences aside long enough to, at the very least, be considerate of each other.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
yeah ... its the internet ... wut u gonna do? ... can't be all angels such as yourself ...
I agree with the sentiments in your post (and posts that followed), except this part. Che has said he can't deal with reality anymore. He can't read the paper, he can't watch TV, he can't work, etc... So yes, Bootlegger10, you, Abook, my2hands, mammasan are dealing with the tough parts of life better than he is by confronting them. Che by his own admission is dropping out, running away, quitting. That's fine, he certainly has that right and I totally defend his right to do so. But don't confuse that with strength and the ability to face the tough parts of life.
However that viewpoint does come from the objective point of view. If i was an american with friends, family, colleagues dying over there, my viewpoint may be very very different.
I don't see it as a weakness to decide to no longer take part in a system you greatly disagree with. It takes a lot of strong will and sacrifice to make the decision Che has. I don't watch tv, the paper is mostly crap so I can see his perspective. He is creating his own reality and taking that initiative to surround himself with the ideals he wants to see in life and making plenty of sacrfices to do so. I don't see either path as lacking strength or dropping out.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
that is a very valid viewpoint and you bring up a lot that has to be taken into consideration. The way i see it our military presense there will not change anything. The majority of the people do not want us there. The majority of their middle class, which you need a large middle class in order to sustain a stable democracy, is gone. We need to pull out our troops and explore other avenues of helping that country survive. We need to seek out help from other countries and institutions, but in order to do so we would need to admit our mistakes and failures and that is something our government is not very fond of or good at doing.
You need to read up on Central America then and our role in destabalizing their democracies when things were no longer going our way.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
there is a difference between facing the realities of life and being unable to bear witness ... what is anyone doing here anymore then he is ... all we've done is become immune to the suffering and the corruption ... that's it ... we aren't facing it any more then he is ... we've just learned to accept it ... a far worse fate i say ...
Try to reason with them???
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Cool. That's what I like about differing perspectives. Some can see the move and noble and romantic, others see it as a cop out. I totally understand what you're seeing, but have come to a different conclusion based on the way I've read his posts over the past year.
Of course they do . You people (I'm sorry to generalise) have got to stop putting western style democracy and freedom on a golden pedestal that creates so much envy it explains all the problems of the world. It suits our societies and our systems sure (and I'm glad for it) but consider different societies, with different cultures and different problems.
Did you ever consider that maybe a democratic system will not work in Irak? That the majority of the country is too poor for that and that the high level of corruption that will arise from oil money will never ensure a free country? The kind of thing which is already observed in some African countries for instance? The only way I ever saw a country achieve democracy was when it's people fought for it, and that doesn't really seem to be the case here.
No doubt there is a lot of apathy. But thankfully there are plenty of people who are working for change. It might be on a global level, maybe nationally, some work to make their community a better place. Unfortunately others drop out and become isolated, or don't drop out, but just don't care anymore.
I don't see you as someone who has "just learned to accept it". We may disagree on issues, but you seem like someone who faces problems and looks for solutions. That is far different than checking out.
Yes, it is very cool when we can see where each other is coming from.
I personally think Che is young and still trying to find his path in life. But he's not just playing along and getting by...he's being pro active and bold with his choices, paying attention to the world around him instead of just accepting it as 'life' and shrugging. We are all in charge of what we want our 'life' to be. He has the whole world in front of him and will probably change light years throughout his experiences in life. Right now, i see him as trying to be true to himself, what he values and where he is right now, which is admirable.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive
ORGAN DONATION SAVES LIVES
http://www.UNOS.org
Donate Organs and Save a Life
i do my best ... and can definitely do better ... but there are parts of me that want to do what he's gonna do ... i truly find it a more nobler existence ... no matter how hard i try - i can never reduce my footprint to what he will be able to do ...
at the end of the day - change is not universal ... we want different things so while i, you, we may be working towards what we consider positive changes - someone else can see that as being bad ... so, in the end - he may be "checking out" of what some may consider to be a problem but a) he isn't part of that problem and b) he's part of a solution to another one ...
I look at it this way: I am putting my money where my mouth is. I disagree with the way the system is, and I am doing something about it. I believe living in a commune is the way to go, and there are many who disagree and thats fine. But for me, the commune seems to be the way to go.
Moving to a commune to me, means that I am actually going out and living life how I feel it should be lived, how I feel my life should be lived.
I dont think I am weak for doing this. That said, its nerve wracking and scary as well. I have lived in the city my whole life and now am going to live on a commune in rural Virginia.
I think we owe it to ourselves to live our lives. And for me, living my life right now, means moving to a commune. A communal lifestyle, I feel is part of the solution. Its preferable, TO ME at least, to a city life. But thats just my opinion. I am just trying to figure out how to live and keep my sanity.
Instead of being paralyzed all day, angry at the world, angry at Bush, angry at politicians, angry that the world isnt the way I want it to be, I have taken the initiative to do something about it. To start living my life. I dont think this is a bad thing
But it is the case here. Most Iraqi's want to give democracy a chance, but they can't get the opportunity because of all the fighting going on. This isn't a full-scale civil war. You have about 10% of the population up in arms and the rest are sitting back waiting for it to stop. But becuase this smal majority causes so many problems and makes so much noise in the media, you go ahead assume that democracy won't work for the Iraqi people.
thanks, great stuff!
Egypt: President Mohamed Hosni Mubarak has been the President of the Republic since October 14, 1981... the executive power is theoretically divided between the President and the Prime Minister, in practice it rests almost solely with the President who traditionally has been elected in single-candidate elections for more than fifty years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt
Saudi Arabia: The central institution of the Saudi Arabian government is the Saudi monarchy. The Basic Law of Government adopted in 1992 declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the sons and grandsons of the first king, Abd Al Aziz Al Saud, it also claims that the Qur'an is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of Islamic law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_arabia
Kuwait: a constitutional monarchy...On the other hand, the government has managed to pass laws in the years 2005-2006 that restrict the freedom of speech. Laws such as the new media law, has become a huge obstacle for writers and citizens who might consider criticizing the government's performance. Lately there have been plenty of news papers writers sent to court for stating their opinions regarding the government or specific ministries performance. A court order to shut down a leading Kuwaiti news paper AlWatanfor three days (first in Kuwait's history). Moreover a magazine editor was sent to jail for criticizing the government action towards a specific incident...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait
Jordan: Jordan is a constitutional monarchy based on the constitution promulgated on January 8, 1952. Executive authority is vested in the king and his council of ministers. The king signs and executes all laws. His veto power may be overridden by a two-thirds vote of both houses of the National Assembly. He appoints and may dismiss all judges by decree, approves amendments to the constitution, declares war, and commands the armed forces. Cabinet decisions, court judgments, and the national currency are issued in his name. The council of ministers, led by a prime minister, is appointed by the king, who may dismiss other cabinet members at the prime minister's request. The cabinet is responsible to the Chamber of Deputies on matters of general policy and can be forced to resign by a two-thirds vote of "no confidence" by that body.
The constitution provides for three categories of courts: civil, religious, and special. Administratively, Jordan is divided into twelve governorates, each headed by a governor appointed by the king. They are the sole authorities for all government departments and development projects in their respective areas.
The Royal Armed Forces and General Intelligence Department of Jordan are under the control of the king.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan
Qatar: Since 1995, Emir Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani has ruled Qatar, seizing control of the country from his father Khalifa bin Hamad Al Thani ... Qatar served as the headquarters and one of the main launching sites of the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.... Qatar explicitly uses Wahhabi law as the basis of its government, and the vast majority of its citizens follow this specific Islamic doctrine. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab founded Wahhabism, a puritanical version of Islam which takes a literal interpretation of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
United Arab Emirates: The Presidency and Premiership of the United Arab Emirates is hereditary to the Al Nahyan clan of Abu Dhabi and the Al Maktoum clan of Dubai respectively... Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan was the union's president from the nation's founding until his death on 2 November 2004. The Federal Supreme Council elected his son, Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahayan, president the next day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_arab_emirates
Thailand: A military junta overthrew the elected government of Thaksin Shinawatra on 19 September 2006. The junta abrogated the constitution, dissolved Parliament and the Constitutional Court, detained and later removed several members of the government, declared martial law, and appointed one of the King's Privy Councillors, General Surayud Chulanont, as Prime Minister. The junta later wrote a highly abbreviated interim constitution and appointed a panel to draft a permanent constitution. The junta also appointed a 250-member legislature, called by one critic a "chamber of generals".[11][12] The head of the junta was allowed to remove the Prime Minister at any time. The legislature was not allowed to hold a vote of confidence against the Cabinet and the public was not allowed to file comments on bills.[13]
Martial law was partially revoked in January 2007. The junta continues to censor the media and was accused of several other human rights violations. The junta also banned all political activities and meetings.
In 2003, the United States designated Thailand as a major non-NATO ally, which grants Thailand several financial and military benefits derived from the United States...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand
and now Musharraf is trying his best to maintain power in pakistan by re-writing it's laws. that is why there have been quite a few problems there recently in which the military has been used to "quiet" the public and demonstrators...not to mention the head of their nuclear program selling inforamtion to any willing party. whatever happened to that? so much for concern about WMD in the wrong hands
you are dead wrong, we absolutely support dictatorships and monarchies as long as they are willing to play ball.
not to mention the consolidation of power into our own executive branch. i believe we are moving closely to the edge of a dictatorship that simply changes faces every 8 years. if we are not careful, it will happen. we are not magicly immune to the corruption and lure of absolute power... he has even called himself "the decider"...inferring he makes the call so shut the fuck up and take it
Even if the wish to give democracy a chance, who is to say it will work? Corruption is already at work in the new Iraqi parliament, and oil production is not yet at it's peak there. Maybe the country is not ready for democracy, and since we don't have problems with all non democratic countries, maybe it would be wise to give the birth of a democracy there some time rather than to speed its arrival by force.
it was not a *critique*...it was a question. no where in either post was any *criticism* present so i do fail to see where you get that. as in, looking for ideas from others of what to do beyond the *obvious*, most of which has been listed already. i ask, b/c i figure of the many who DO start these kinds of threads...perhaps they have more ideas than ones i have known about/thought of myself....thus why i ASK. i don't have anything new, thus why i don't start threads such of this b/c i sadly don't have any new ideas as to what can be done...so just thought, maybe, someone did. so no, i don't have any ideas to share....if i did, i would most certainly post/share...start a thread...whatever.
i just kinda hoped since there are a few people here who do start these threads regularly, they might have suggestions b/c i certainly don't. i am certainly not minimizing the need for discussion in and of itself. dialogue is VERY important at all levels. i actually thought i was pretty clear about all that, my apologies if it wasn't.
and i am still curious....to my2hands:
b/c as i said, the rest of your suggestions, i have followed most...i think many of us have...but this i haven't considered, and quite honestly i wouldn't...so i am curious if you truly have taken it that far. especially since it is the very first suggestion you make. kudos to you if ya do, i am quite impressed!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
No, it was not obvious what your intent was. To me, it did seem to belittle the impact of the post. You have clarified and said that wasn't what you meant and that's fine...but it wasn't obvious initially.
And I'll say it again, spreading the notion that the troops should could home and backing it up with good reasoning is about all you CAN do right now. Now there are plenty of outlets to spread this idea, some being more powerful and reaching further than others...but voicing your concern and voting is all we have.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde