Immigration

onelongsong

Kann wrote:

I don't really think helping people in Iraq and helping to improve some populations lives is comparable. In europe we have to deal with immigration from Africa. Life in some african countries is rendered almost impossible due to diverging interest from manipulative countries (France for western african countries, China in eastern and so on), stripping these countries from natural resources and allowing dictatorship and corruption to flourish. As a result you have oppressed populations who have the choice of either dying from hunger, lack of medicine, getting killed in genocidal wars or fleeing to a hopefully better life in europe.
The goal here is not for western countries to invade africa and resolve these problems by force but to help african countries to develop their agriculture and natural resources and, at the very least, to allow that continent to have access to low cost drugs.
The new studies on global warming show that, once again, Africa will suffer the most of the effects and won't help much the situation there. They predict massive immigration flows, so in the best interests of both sides (europe and africa) the solution proposed by Jeanie seems the most logical.

our iraqi population is increadable. all here due to oppression. helping them establish a free country will allow them to return as many have vowed to do.

i see your point though. but i don't think you're seeing mine. why should you; and your country become a poor third world country because others flock to your door? europe is in bigger danger because you have limited land and resourses. do you have such a surplus of jobs that you can support all these new people? can your government afford to feed all these people and can you personally afford the tax increases YOU will have to pay? can your socialized medical program survive with this influx of people? it's no longer a matter of helping people. there are ramifications the average person doesn't think about.

josevolution

so the answers are what everyone has an opinion on this problem but really no logical solutions ,i consider my self an imigrant arrived here in 71" by no choice my father was here first and he worked in factory's for $1 to $1.75 an hour i still can't comprehend how he managed to bring the rest of us here, my whole family are citizens of this great country at least in my opinion. But now the immigration problem has grown to incontrollable proportions with no answers in sight i feel bad for all these people who have no choice but to leave their place of birth ,the goverments of all these countries that have all these people leaving should be the one's to help in this matter they should be held accountable.. my 2c ...

Collin

onelongsong wrote:

INVITED? we have fences and armed border guards saying YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. are the mexican people that stupid that they can't figure that out? you fail to mention the displaced american workers; and the strain it puts on society. most of the world learns english as a second language. are the mexican people not intelligent enough to learn the language of the country they are invading?

I think by invited he means what you addressed a couple of posts earlier, businesses hiring them. I could be wrong, of course.

If people can get by with limited knowledge of English, they won't spend their time and money to learn it more thoroughly. It's called fossilization.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

INVITED? we have fences and armed border guards saying YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. are the mexican people that stupid that they can't figure that out? you fail to mention the displaced american workers; and the strain it puts on society. most of the world learns english as a second language. are the mexican people not intelligent enough to learn the language of the country they are invading?

The wife may have put up a No Trespassing sign, but that doesn't mean the husband didn't invite the maid in. Just using your analogy, after all.

onelongsong

josevolution wrote:

so the answers are what everyone has an opinion on this problem but really no logical solutions ,i consider my self an imigrant arrived here in 71" by no choice my father was here first and he worked in factory's for $1 to $1.75 an hour i still can't comprehend how he managed to bring the rest of us here, my whole family are citizens of this great country at least in my opinion. But now the immigration problem has grown to incontrollable proportions with no answers in sight i feel bad for all these people who have no choice but to leave their place of birth ,the goverments of all these countries that have all these people leaving should be the one's to help in this matter they should be held accountable.. my 2c ...

and i agree with you. my solution is to invade mexico and take control of the government. mexico has great wealth in oil and gold but it's the government pocketing that money and leaving the country to rot. if the mexican people are not strong enough to right this wrong; and feel they must turn tail and run; then we must intercede or lose control in our own country.

onelongsong

Collin wrote:

I think by invited he means what you addressed a couple of posts earlier, businesses hiring them. I could be wrong, of course.

If people can get by with limited knowledge of English, they won't spend their time and money to learn it more thoroughly. It's called fossilization.

i think that's a bs excuse. they're too scared or lazy to fight for their own independence so they come to suckle the teats of people who have. there's a right way and a wrong way of doing anything. if you do it the right way; i welcome you.

pjfanatic4

Kann wrote:

The goal here is not for western countries to invade africa and resolve these problems by force but to help african countries to develop their agriculture and natural resources and, at the very least, to allow that continent to have access to low cost drugs.

That goal sounds nice on paper. The reality is that globalization activities, and poor countries following IMF's "recommendations" has not proven to help the economies of poor countries, but to make them more dependable on the economic powers.

The immigration problem in the US has to be viewed along with NAFTA. It has not "developed" Mexico, it has made it more dependant on cheap labor. As long as that major gap in earning potential is reduced. Immigration will not be stopped.

pjfanatic4

onelongsong wrote:

unemployment is soring while millions cross the border for jobs. kids join gangs and run drugs because that's the only jobs they can find.

I thought unemployment is not a problem these days in the US. In fact, I recollect reading not long ago that it was at a low level.

The fact is that while there is work to be done in the US to keep the economic engine going, there will be immigrants looking to fill the void.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

i think that's a bs excuse. they're too scared or lazy to fight for their own independence so they come to suckle the teats of people who have. there's a right way and a wrong way of doing anything. if you do it the right way; i welcome you.

You fought for our independence? Damn, dude, you're older than I thought.

If this is as much of an issue to you as you portend, you need to stop getting pissed at the people who come over here and start getting pissed at the people who invite them. But you're too scared or lazy to take on the real problem - U.S. businesses who supply you with all your favorite cheap stuff. Instead, you point and scream at easiest target you can find - the people you can pick out of a crowd.

Collin

onelongsong wrote:

i think that's a bs excuse. they're too scared or lazy to fight for their own independence so they come to suckle the teats of people who have. there's a right way and a wrong way of doing anything. if you do it the right way; i welcome you.

I'm not saying they're right. Or wrong.

pjfanatic4

onelongsong wrote:

and i agree with you. my solution is to invade mexico and take control of the government. mexico has great wealth in oil and gold but it's the government pocketing that money and leaving the country to rot. if the mexican people are not strong enough to right this wrong; and feel they must turn tail and run; then we must intercede or lose control in our own country.

Your solution is to invade Mexico?? Are you serious?? Why would that solve anything? You would have to keep going south through Belize, Guatemala, and on on until you you make a modern Roman Empire.... that's ludicrous.

It is a very complicated problem, but as long as the minimum hourly wage in the US is over the DAILY minimum wage in Mexico, there will always be an incentive to migrate. The solution lies in closing that gap, by mutual cooperation of the economies (a thing NAFTA has worsened, not helped). Remove the incentive, and Mexicans will be glad to stay put in Mexico. Believe me, most of them would relocate if they could earn there what they do here.

josevolution

ONELONGSONG is correct that these countries gov are totally corrupt and don't give a crap about the impoverished mass they just cater to the rich and fuck the peasants .....that is why only the poor souls come here you don't see dr's ,lawyers coming here do we no ??

onelongsong

pjfanatic4 wrote:

Your solution is to invade Mexico?? Are you serious?? Why would that solve anything? You would have to keep going south through Belize, Guatemala, and on on until you you make a modern Roman Empire.... that's ludicrous.

It is a very complicated problem, but as long as the minimum hourly wage in the US is over the DAILY minimum wage in Mexico, there will always be an incentive to migrate. The solution lies in closing that gap, by mutual cooperation of the economies (a thing NAFTA has worsened, not helped). Remove the incentive, and Mexicans will be glad to stay put in Mexico. Believe me, most of them would relocate if they could earn there what they do here.

it would solve the problem because with mexico's wealth; we could handle the influx of people. with the number of mexicans crossing the border; it is; by all deffinitions; an invasion. according to the rules of war. building a wall on mexicos southern border would be much easier than building a wall along the mexican/us border.

and why not build a modern roman empire? if everyone wants to come here; let's make it easy for them. we'll bring the us there.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

it would solve the problem because with mexico's wealth; we could handle the influx of people. with the number of mexicans crossing the border; it is; by all deffinitions; an invasion. according to the rules of war. building a wall on mexicos southern border would be much easier than building a wall along the mexican/us border.

and why not build a modern roman empire? if everyone wants to come here; let's make it easy for them. we'll bring the us there.

Still no rage for those who are inviting them? And I mean real rage for the real problem.

onelongsong

josevolution wrote:

ONELONGSONG is correct that these countries gov are totally corrupt and don't give a crap about the impoverished mass they just cater to the rich and fuck the peasants .....that is why only the poor souls come here you don't see dr's ,lawyers coming here do we no ??

and that's the point. i have nothing against the people; it's the governments fault. kann mentioned africa. a continent rich in gold and diamonds. so rich that the people should be able to wipe their asses with gold leaf. the middle east is so rich in oil they should be able to hire someone to wipe their asses for them. yet the people in these countries are poor and starving. and the american government lets them come here ruining the quality of life for its citizens.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

and why not build a modern roman empire? if everyone wants to come here; let's make it easy for them. we'll bring the us there.

The Roman empire collapsed - largely as a result of not being able to keep control of all their conquered territory. But we'd be different, though. I mean, look at how invasion improved the lives of the Iraqis. They love us now.

Kann

onelongsong wrote:

and that's the point. i have nothing against the people; it's the governments fault. kann mentioned africa. a continent rich in gold and diamonds. so rich that the people should be able to wipe their asses with gold leaf. the middle east is so rich in oil they should be able to hire someone to wipe their asses for them. yet the people in these countries are poor and starving. and the american government lets them come here ruining the quality of life for its citizens.

the point is when we (as western countries and the security council as a whole) stop infering with these countrie's politics and economies, they might start improving their life. Our countries actions, right now, are not helping the countries from where immigrants come. If we want to stop the flow, solve the problem at the source. And looking back, I doubt invasions would be a solution.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

and that's the point. i have nothing against the people; it's the governments fault.

Which government? And, hell, is government the only controlling factor here? What about those that invite the illegals over? I know they're harder to point out of a crowd and all, but still.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

Still no rage for those who are inviting them? And I mean real rage for the real problem.

i've been fighting for high fines and possible jail terms for businesses that hire illegals.

please explain how the laws against hiring illegals is an invitation. we have laws against crossing the border. we have laws against hiring illegals too. in arizona it is illegal to give aid to an illegal. i don't think that's an invitation at all.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

i've been fighting for high fines and possible jail terms for businesses that hire illegals.

please explain how the laws against hiring illegals is an invitation. we have laws against crossing the border. we have laws against hiring illegals too. in arizona it is illegal to give aid to an illegal. i don't think that's an invitation at all.

Ever heard of the phrase "mixed messages"? The wife putting up the No Trespassing sign while the husband invites them in?

Should we shut down all businesses that hire illegals? No fines - shut them down. It's at least comparible to deportation. Oh, and make sure those responsible are never allowed to open a business again. They relinquish that right when they break the law. Kinda the same as a deportee never being allowed back in the country. Hell, you talk about invading countries. Why not also burn down every building where an illegal has worked? Comparible. Where's that rage?