Immigration

catefrances

Jeanie wrote:

Surely we have to focus on the big issue here, and that is that people are having to leave their country of birth and their families in search of a better life somewhere else.

I simply cannot imagine having to do that. And I hope that we are always lucky here in Australia and I won't have to.

What needs to happen is we need to look at what it is that is happening in the world that is making these countries uninhabitable for people so that they are willing to risk everything in order to seek refugee status elsewhere.

Simply detaining them or complaining about them once they get here is just poor management in my opinion.

what jeanie? are you suggesting we actally look at the root of the problem instead of just putting a bandaid over it? have you gone totally mad girl?

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

what jeanie? are you suggesting we actally look at the root of the problem instead of just putting a bandaid over it? have you gone totally mad girl?

Well I guess if we look at the root of the problem, then the big end of town and the government would have to make the most changes and I simply cannot see them doing that! They might have to give up a few things and as aquisition seems to be the name of the game I can forsee some rather large tanties should anyone attempt to teach a little self discipline!

Yes!! I think you're right cate!! I've completely lost the plot!

catefrances

i often wonder why the West(and by this i mean the governments) doesn't give a rat's arse about the majority world. i have my suspicions but don't want to be pigeonholed as a bleeding heart liberal commy left wing traitor to democracy. and as we all know democracy is simply a synonym for free market.

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

i often wonder why the West(and by this i mean the governments) doesn't give a rat's arse about the majority world. i have my suspicions but don't want to be pigeonholed as a bleeding heart liberal commy left wing traitor to democracy. and as we all know democracy is simply a synonym for free market.

Yeah, well you won't get any arguments out of me comrade!!

Scubascott

Jeanie wrote:

And as for sharing our society. I have no problem with sharing but I'm not so sure we are in a position to share. We don't have enough water to sustain the agriculture for the industries that we have now that are busy participating in the global world market. Many of them foreign owned. If we don't look at these practices and come up with real, sustainable solutions to many of our current environmental issues this land will not be inhabitable for those of us that are here already let alone taking in extras.

I kinda feel the same way. I understand that as a rich country we have an obligation to help the less fortunate, but we have limited natural resources (well, limited water anyway). Its seems pretty apparent to me that we are already pushing our water resorces to the very limit with our current population. That's why I can never understand the constant promotion of incentives for women to have more babies etc. Why do we need population growth? To encourage further economic growth? Why do we need economic growth? Isn't economic stability enough? Immigration just adds even more pressure.

catefrances

Scubascott wrote:

I kinda feel the same way. I understand that as a rich country we have an obligation to help the less fortunate, but we have limited natural resources (well, limited water anyway). Its seems pretty apparent to me that we are already pushing our water resorces to the very limit with our current population. That's why I can never understand the constant promotion of incentives for women to have more babies etc. Why do we need population growth? To encourage further economic growth? Why do we need economic growth? Isn't economic stability enough? Immigration just adds even more pressure.

woman in australia are encouraged to have more babies so we dont have to import people not like us. if we have ZPG then the only alternative is to allow immigration. and some of those people are just plain undesirable. ask pauline hanson shse'll set you straight.

Scubascott

catefrances wrote:

woman in australia are encouraged to have more babies so we dont have to import people not like us. if we have ZPG then the only alternative is to allow immigration. and some of those people are just plain undesirable. ask pauline hanson shse'll set you straight.

Huh? My point is why do we need any population growth? As you can probably tell, I'm no economist, but what's wrong with zero population growth and zero economic growth? If the current economy is strong enough to adequately support the current population, why can't we just aim to keep things stable?

I realise this probably sounds ridiculously naive, but its something I've never understood, so if someone could explain it to me I'd be very grateful.

BTW, just as matter of interest, apparently the UK currently has a negative birthrate, but its population continues to grow due to high immigration rates.

catefrances

Scubascott wrote:

Huh? My point is why do we need any population growth? As you can probably tell, I'm no economist, but what's wrong with zero population growth and zero economic growth? If the current economy is strong enough to adequately support the current population, why can't we just aim to keep things stable?

I realise this probably sounds ridiculously naive, but its something I've never understood, so if someone could explain it to me I'd be very grateful.

BTW, just as matter of interest, apparently the UK currently has a negative birthrate, but its population continues to grow due to high immigration rates.

sorry i'm a anti capitalist i know nothing about economics

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

Huh? My point is why do we need any population growth? As you can probably tell, I'm no economist, but what's wrong with zero population growth and zero economic growth? If the current economy is strong enough to adequately support the current population, why can't we just aim to keep things stable?

I realise this probably sounds ridiculously naive, but its something I've never understood, so if someone could explain it to me I'd be very grateful.

BTW, just as matter of interest, apparently the UK currently has a negative birthrate, but its population continues to grow due to high immigration rates.

Scott I think the argument for population growth is our aging population. Something that is being suffered in most countries of the western world.
We currently are able to support our system but worldwide it's looking like our current birth rates will not produce enough of a generation to care for or support financially the current population as it ages. That's fairly simple an explanation but I think it's what they are all aiming at.

catefrances

Jeanie wrote:

Scott I think the argument for population growth is our aging population. Something that is being suffered in most countries of the western world.
We currently are able to support our system but worldwide it's looking like our current birth rates will not produce enough of a generation to care for or support financially the current population as it ages. That's fairly simple an explanation but I think it's what they are all aiming at.

logan's run anyone?

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

I kinda feel the same way. I understand that as a rich country we have an obligation to help the less fortunate, but we have limited natural resources (well, limited water anyway). Its seems pretty apparent to me that we are already pushing our water resorces to the very limit with our current population. That's why I can never understand the constant promotion of incentives for women to have more babies etc. Why do we need population growth? To encourage further economic growth? Why do we need economic growth? Isn't economic stability enough? Immigration just adds even more pressure.

And I'd agree with you. I do however think that we need to be able to help people in crisis. And if that means finding a safe place for them to live for a while so be it. BUT I also think that we should be helping to ensure that people aren't needing to leave their homes to seek refuge in the first place.
I would have no problem with immigration, or economic growth if it was true economic growth. But if we don't find solutions to our current environmental problems and we do nothing to help our neighbours to sustain themselves, then I don't see that it is true economic growth. It's just a false economy and sooner or later the shit is gonna hit the fan.

Jeanie

catefrances wrote:

logan's run anyone?

So true cate! Wish it was the case that the people had more control. Seems that the government is forcing us into a situation just like this. :eek:

Scubascott

catefrances wrote:

sorry i'm a anti capitalist i know nothing about economics

Hmm. Don't know how sarcastic you're being. . .

Isn't that kind of like being an anti-Darwinist who know's nothing about biology?

Cosmo

onelongsong wrote:

Let's say I break into your house
>
> A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials
> In ages!!! It explains things better than all
> The baloney you hear on TV.
>
> Her point:
>
> Recently large demonstrations have taken place
> Across the country protesting the fact that Congress
> Is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.
>
> Certain people are angry that
> The US might protect its own
> Borders, might make it harder
> To sneak into this country and,
> Once here, to stay indefinitely.
>
> Let me see if I correctly understand
> The thinking behind these protests.
> Let's say I break into your house.
> Let's say that when you discover
> Me in your house, you insist that I leave.
>
> But I say, "I've made all
> The beds and washed the
> Dishes and did the laundry
> And swept the floors. I've
> Done all the things you don't
> Like to do. I'm hard-working
> And honest
> (except for when I broke into your house) .
>
> According to the protesters:
>
> You are Required to let me stay in your house
> You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan
> You are Required to Educate my kids
> You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family
>
> (my husband will do all of your yard work because
> He is also hard-working and honest, except for that
> Breaking in part).
>
> If you try to call the police or force me out,
> I will call my friends who will picket your
> House carrying signs that proclaim my
> RIGHT to be there.
>
>
> It's only fair, after all, because you have
> A nicer house than I do, and I'm just
> Trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working
> And honest, person, except for well,
> You know, I did break into your house
>
> And what a deal it is for me!!!
>
> I live in your house, contributing only a
> Fraction of the cost of my keep, and
> There is nothing you can do about it
> Without being accused of cold,
> Uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and
> Bigoted behavior.
>
> Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn
> MY LANGUAGE!!! So you can
> Communicate with me.
>
> Why can't people see how ridiculous
> This is?! Only in America .
> If you agree, pass it on (in English ).
> Share it if you see the value of it.
>
> If not blow it off.........
> Along with your future Social Security funds and a lot of other things.

...
Fuckin' Aye! I HOPE someone breaks into my house, does my laundry, cleans out the catbox, vaccuums up the cat hair, cooks the food, does the dishes, cleans the toilet (sometimes my aim is terrible), washes the windows, washes the car, goes to the grocery store, tosses out the stuff in the fridge that has been there since 1998, takes down the Christmas Tree and picks up my underwear from the living room. I'll learn fucking Swazziland dilect of Guatemala and send their kids to school for that.

onelongsong

mammasan wrote:

onelongsong I do like the analogy but it fails to mention a very important component in the immigration problem, the companies that hire them. The reason they come here is because they know they will find work. Everyone is so focused on punishing the illegals for breaking the law but they glance over the US companies that are breaking the law as well.

i've personally addressed several governors about this same issue. the businesses claim they cannot identify who is illegal yet an immigration bus can pull up to the business and identify dozens of illegals.
i pushed for stiff fines for businesses that hire illegals but that was shot down.

onelongsong

Jeanie wrote:

Surely we have to focus on the big issue here, and that is that people are having to leave their country of birth and their families in search of a better life somewhere else.

I simply cannot imagine having to do that. And I hope that we are always lucky here in Australia and I won't have to.

What needs to happen is we need to look at what it is that is happening in the world that is making these countries uninhabitable for people so that they are willing to risk everything in order to seek refugee status elsewhere.

Simply detaining them or complaining about them once they get here is just poor management in my opinion.

you're kidding right? everyone is up in arms because we're in iraq trying to help a people and now you say we're suppose to be responsable for the world population. if it's wrong to help one people then it's wrong to help any of them.

Kann

onelongsong wrote:

you're kidding right? everyone is up in arms because we're in iraq trying to help a people and now you say we're suppose to be responsable for the world population. if it's wrong to help one people then it's wrong to help any of them.

I don't really think helping people in Iraq and helping to improve some populations lives is comparable. In europe we have to deal with immigration from Africa. Life in some african countries is rendered almost impossible due to diverging interest from manipulative countries (France for western african countries, China in eastern and so on), stripping these countries from natural resources and allowing dictatorship and corruption to flourish. As a result you have oppressed populations who have the choice of either dying from hunger, lack of medicine, getting killed in genocidal wars or fleeing to a hopefully better life in europe.
The goal here is not for western countries to invade africa and resolve these problems by force but to help african countries to develop their agriculture and natural resources and, at the very least, to allow that continent to have access to low cost drugs.
The new studies on global warming show that, once again, Africa will suffer the most of the effects and won't help much the situation there. They predict massive immigration flows, so in the best interests of both sides (europe and africa) the solution proposed by Jeanie seems the most logical.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

Let's say I break into your house
>
> A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials
> In ages!!! It explains things better than all
> The baloney you hear on TV.
>
> Her point:
>
> Recently large demonstrations have taken place
> Across the country protesting the fact that Congress
> Is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.
>
> Certain people are angry that
> The US might protect its own
> Borders, might make it harder
> To sneak into this country and,
> Once here, to stay indefinitely.
>
> Let me see if I correctly understand
> The thinking behind these protests.
> Let's say I break into your house.
> Let's say that when you discover
> Me in your house, you insist that I leave.
>
> But I say, "I've made all
> The beds and washed the
> Dishes and did the laundry
> And swept the floors. I've
> Done all the things you don't
> Like to do. I'm hard-working
> And honest
> (except for when I broke into your house) .
>
> According to the protesters:
>
> You are Required to let me stay in your house
> You are Required to add me to your family's insurance plan
> You are Required to Educate my kids
> You are Required to Provide other benefits to me & to my family
>
> (my husband will do all of your yard work because
> He is also hard-working and honest, except for that
> Breaking in part).
>
> If you try to call the police or force me out,
> I will call my friends who will picket your
> House carrying signs that proclaim my
> RIGHT to be there.
>
>
> It's only fair, after all, because you have
> A nicer house than I do, and I'm just
> Trying to better myself. I'm a hard-working
> And honest, person, except for well,
> You know, I did break into your house
>
> And what a deal it is for me!!!
>
> I live in your house, contributing only a
> Fraction of the cost of my keep, and
> There is nothing you can do about it
> Without being accused of cold,
> Uncaring, selfish, prejudiced, and
> Bigoted behavior.
>
> Oh yeah, I DEMAND that you to learn
> MY LANGUAGE!!! So you can
> Communicate with me.
>
> Why can't people see how ridiculous
> This is?! Only in America .
> If you agree, pass it on (in English ).
> Share it if you see the value of it.
>
> If not blow it off.........
> Along with your future Social Security funds and a lot of other things.

I haven't read this thread all the way through, but I wanted to comment on a few things in terms of this analogy.
Here is what the "lady" fails to mention.

1. Her husband invited this person into her home with the promise of a wage.
2. No one is really asking her to learn Spanish - she'd probably just one of those lazy ass people who for some reason or another feels it's beneath her to push the number "1" when calling an automated service number or standing in front of the ATM.
3. I'd say that the subject of the chain-mail would have every right to be pissed if, after being invited in by the husband, the wife demands she be beaten out the front door. Likely she'd call up some of her friends.
4. The "fraction of the cost" mentioned is in regards to the actual money contributed and not the overall benefit of the labor.
5. No, the author of this chain-mail does not understand these protests. Instead, she can only relate to what she can see - and she can see these protests. What she can't seem to make out, and it is the most important detail here, is that it's really her husband she should blame if she's so upset over the maid he hired. But she doesn't want to approach that detail, because too much scrutiny would likely show her that the husband is giving the maid a bit more than just "payment" - if you know what I mean. Best to stay in denial, blame the maid for being there, have her beaten and ejected from the home, and then start the whole thing over again when her husband goes out and hires another one.

onelongsong

Scubascott wrote:

I kinda feel the same way. I understand that as a rich country we have an obligation to help the less fortunate, but we have limited natural resources (well, limited water anyway). Its seems pretty apparent to me that we are already pushing our water resorces to the very limit with our current population. That's why I can never understand the constant promotion of incentives for women to have more babies etc. Why do we need population growth? To encourage further economic growth? Why do we need economic growth? Isn't economic stability enough? Immigration just adds even more pressure.

ahh; a voice of reason. it's the same in the us. the southwest doesn't have the water to support it's population. if you look at satellite photos of the midwest; there's a basin forming. the land is sinking due to all the water removed from the earth. unemployment is soring while millions cross the border for jobs. kids join gangs and run drugs because that's the only jobs they can find. i could go on and on but you get the point.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

I haven't read this thread all the way through, but I wanted to comment on a few things in terms of this analogy.
Here is what the "lady" fails to mention.

1. Her husband invited this person into her home with the promise of a wage.
2. No one is really asking her to learn Spanish - she'd probably just one of those lazy ass people who for some reason or another feels it's beneath her to push the number "1" when calling an automated service number or standing in front of the ATM.
3. I'd say that the subject of the chain-mail would have every right to be pissed if, after being invited in by the husband, the wife demands she be beaten out the front door. Likely she'd call up some of her friends.
4. The "fraction of the cost" mentioned is in regards to the actual money contributed and not the overall benefit of the labor.
5. No, the author of this chain-mail does not understand these protests. Instead, she can only relate to what she can see - and she can see these protests. What she can't seem to make out, and it is the most important detail here, is that it's really her husband she should blame if she's so upset over the maid he hired. But she doesn't want to approach that detail, because too much scrutiny would likely show her that the husband is giving the maid a bit more than just "payment" - if you know what I mean. Best to stay in denial, blame the maid for being there, have her beaten and ejected from the home, and then start the whole thing over again when her husband goes out and hires another one.

INVITED? we have fences and armed border guards saying YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. are the mexican people that stupid that they can't figure that out? you fail to mention the displaced american workers; and the strain it puts on society. most of the world learns english as a second language. are the mexican people not intelligent enough to learn the language of the country they are invading?