Why Do You Think Human Life Is So Precious?

Cosmo

The bottom line... this life is the only thing we are sure of. Sure, religions tell us about after lives and milk and honey... but realistically... we don't know for sure. We may BELIEVE in afterlife... but belief and truth are not the same thing.
So... you don't need religion or God in order to be a moral person. I know many non-religious people who are loving, caring and giving... and have heard of many instances where religious people are the ones who send out death threats to those whom commit blasphemy in their eyes. And I'm sure there are awful aethists and I know there are wonderful religious people out there.
I believe that our morality comes from our humanity... not our religious beliefs.

Jeanie

Resin42 wrote:

In a nut shell the best argument against the death penalty as a punishment.

The only other real argument is as a deterrent but the threat of execution does not cut murder rates anywhere it is applied for one simple reason. Most criminals don't think they will be caught.

Thanks but I'm not really trying to convince anybody else or argue with them or for my point of view. It's really just my take on the matter and could be the worst kind of thinking. I'm really not sure. My views on the death penalty have changed over the years and it's a really difficult issue to negotiate in my mind. I think because much of what we think about it is so emotionally based. I can see that my reasoning is flawed. If I'm so against state sanctioned killing why is it that I would want Martin Bryant to suffer slowly going insane? It's probably not a great way to look at it but if I'm honest I do want him to have to think about what he did. I don't think he can be rehabilitated, I think death is too easy a release for him and I don't think he can redeem himself. I can't imagine that there is ANYTHING that he could do that would make up or change the horrific nature of his crimes. And his strange and tragic childhood really doesn't cut any slack with me either. Me wanting him to suffer mental and emotional torture for the rest of his natural life, well that's probably equally as bad as people that would support the death penalty. So I don't know.

Collin

MrSmith wrote:

I will explain further, came off a little wrong. I'm not particularly religious. I'm more of the Deist/spiritual type. I'm just saying that if I didn't believe there was some greater meaning or afterlife, I wouldn't care about anything but my own survival, and thats if I cared about anything at all. If I cease to exist after death, than my life is pointless, and so is everyone else's. Whats the harm in ushering others off into nonexistence? We are just water filled fleshbags.

I'm not saying thats what all atheists believe, but from a logical standpoint, I would have to agree with Stalin if I were a true atheist. I mean, lets face it, the man lived a happy, rich life, and since he doesnt exist after death and there is no big karma/hell/cosmic justice or whatever, sounds to me he had the right idea, since everyone he "killed" were just a random collection of matter with no real purpose. Live life for the maximum amount of pleasure, because we all cease to exist after life. My caring for other life would pretty much end with me and my close friends and family. Everybody else could go fuck themselves.

Why do you as an atheist believe in the sanctity of life? Seems to me that the only reason is fear of punishment, just like religious people. Don't be so high and mighty. We're all slaves to Pain and Pleasure. I would also argue that your "empathy" is just something modern society impressed on you, but then again so is my belief in some kind of payback when one dies i guess.

I'm not flaming, just wondering aloud. Its interesting to me. People can think whatever they want, as long as they dont get in my face with it.

Glad you believe in life after death, then.

I'm an atheists and most of my friends are too. We figured out that when you are nice to people, they are nice to you too. Call it karma, whatever, this doesn't have anything to do with something spiritual or anything, it's just what people do. We also figured out when you're an asshole, which you would be oddly enough, people won't like you, you won't have a lot of friends etc.
What does this have to do with fearing punishment? Most people don't want to become dictator and kill millions and are happy with a normal life which they share with their friends and family...

Anyway, we're nice, friendly people.

And like the other posters said, do you think empathy is something only the bible can teach you?

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

you know tis not the criminal we defend but the human life. sure laws are broken but that doesnt mean we should take it upon ourselves as a society and break the biggest rule of all. we say we are above the animals but when we kill our own kind in anger and revenge, we are not. state sanctioned murder is still murder. warehousing people in jails does not address the issues we have to confront as a society. but it sure is convenient to have them out of the way where we dont have to be confronted with our shortcomings as a society and theirs as fellow human beings. i find it interesting that there are times when we 'worship' the agressor and others where we do not. if we trully valued human life as we say we do then the societies in which we live would be vastly different places.
the life of a criminal is not worth MORE than that of a so called innocent. it has equal value. if you do wrong yes you should be punished. but execution only hardens a society and diminishes the worth of all life.

that is one fucker of a post

Resin42

Jeanie wrote:

Thanks but I'm not really trying to convince anybody else or argue with them or for my point of view. It's really just my take on the matter and could be the worst kind of thinking. I'm really not sure. My views on the death penalty have changed over the years and it's a really difficult issue to negotiate in my mind. I think because much of what we think about it is so emotionally based. I can see that my reasoning is flawed. If I'm so against state sanctioned killing why is it that I would want Martin Bryant to suffer slowly going insane? It's probably not a great way to look at it but if I'm honest I do want him to have to think about what he did. I don't think he can be rehabilitated, I think death is too easy a release for him and I don't think he can redeem himself. I can't imagine that there is ANYTHING that he could do that would make up or change the horrific nature of his crimes. And his strange and tragic childhood really doesn't cut any slack with me either. Me wanting him to suffer mental and emotional torture for the rest of his natural life, well that's probably equally as bad as people that would support the death penalty. So I don't know.

Fair enough but I still think it's a good argument against those who think capital punishment is a viable solution. Why should the most vicious members of our society be issued with a relatively easy way out purely to appease a soundbite cultures need for quick solutions? Couple this with the criminal justice system's tendancy to get things wrong from time to time. It can't be trusted to be 100% just so absolute punishments should not even be on the agenda.

Capital punishment erodes a society's morality and devalues human life while having no clear cut benefits other than reducing the overheads of housing prisoners for life sentences.

dunkman

Resin42 wrote:

I found your post fairly insulting and it got my back up so I'm sorry if it it came across as a being a bit "arsey" or hostile. I'm honestly not flaming either.

So to answer your question...

Obviously the society we live in helps to shape our moral values but that doesn't mean we take them all at face value. We all choose to adhere to what we believe is right, disagree with what we don't and disregard what we think we can get away with. In the end it's our own moral code that dictates.

I have no fear of retribution in the afterlife so that doesn't dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do. Fear of going to prison (or not wanting to take the risk) probably stops me from doing any number of petty crimes which I could choose to think of as victimless if I wanted to if I'm completely honest. However I know for a fact that if I wanted to I could commit a random act of violence and get away with it, I have seen it done many times. I have also been a victim of this kind of crime and know full well the impact it can have on someone. I couldn't bring myself to inflict this on another human being knowing what it did to me. I have never really understood the thinking of the people who do it.

I also couldn't bring myself to kill another for the simple fact that I'm not all that keen on the idea of dying so what gives me the right to decide some else's life should end? They no doubt have people who love them who would feel a very real pain if I chose to commit this act. I understand this pain and would not wish to cause it to anyone else.

Stalin was a sociopath as was Hitler. Unfortunately there are many of these kind of people out there who don't really give a fuck about other human beings. I'm glad that I'm not one of them.

wow, at last... two intelligent scotsmen on the forum... me and that Duggro blokey guy.

Jeanie

Resin42 wrote:

Fair enough but I still think it's a good argument against those who think capital punishment is a viable solution. Why should the most vicious members of our society be issued with a relatively easy way out purely to appease a soundbite cultures need for quick solutions? Couple this with the criminal justice system's tendancy to get things wrong from time to time. It can't be trusted to be 100% just so absolute punishments should not even be on the agenda.

Capital punishment erodes a society's morality and devalues human life while having no clear cut benefits other than reducing the overheads of housing prisoners for life sentences.

I would agree with all of that. I'm just musing I guess that to me my motivations against the death penalty aren't always altruistic or any better than those that would call for it in some cases.
I mean think about it. Me wanting him to be kept alive simply because I want him not to be able to have relief from his own mind, me being prepared to fund him being locked up for the rest of his natural life, with limited human contact, me holding any opinion about what should happen in his life at all, isn't that me being judgemental and inflicting my thoughts and feelings on him anyway? I kinda think it's comparable to those that would want him dead because he's not redeemable and as retribution for what he did. Me wanting him alive is pretty much motivated by the same reasoning. I'm not so sure that either option will help us to understand WHY he did what he did or more importantly, how to ensure it doesn't happen again.
It sure isn't going to bring back those beautiful little girls he hunted down or their mother or all the other people that he killed, maimed or scarred for life emotionally.

MattCameronKicksButt

know1 wrote:

I am against the death penalty primarily because I feel that revenge killing does NOBODY any good and is highly hypocritical.

I don't think it's about revenge killing but rather keeping people out of 'our' society.

So I'd rather my taxes go to feed these people, than to put them to death.

I just cannot believe that us humans have the right to say who should die and who shouldn't.

If someone doesn't want to abide by our rules, fair enough, but they should be punished. Not by death though. That's no ones right.

They should be sent to a foreign island to fend for themselves. heheh. IMO

Jeanie

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

I don't think it's about revenge killing but rather keeping people out of 'our' society.

So I'd rather my taxes go to feed these people, than to put them to death.

I just cannot believe that us humans have the right to say who should die and who shouldn't.

If someone doesn't want to abide by our rules, fair enough, but they should be punished. Not by death though. That's no ones right.

They should be sent to a foreign island to fend for themselves. heheh. IMO

I think that deal you guys had going with Australia is all finished now MCKB!
Any other island you got in mind?

MattCameronKicksButt

Jeanie wrote:

I think that deal you guys had going with Australia is all finished now MCKB!
Any other island you got in mind?

HAHAHA! Where did you spring from!?!

I stil think a deserted island would be a good idea!

Jeanie

MattCameronKicksButt wrote:

HAHAHA! Where did you spring from!?!

I stil think a deserted island would be a good idea!

Well it is a good idea!

We'd not exist as a nation if it hadn't been done before.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

i dont have any moral problem with killing a murderer. A murderer forfeits his own rights to life. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, as either you believe one way or another and thats it.


that said, the execution system is a joke. its expensive (as it exists now), doesn't prevent crime, may be cruel and unusual in some forms, and too many mistakes are made. So I'm fine with getting rid of it. makes no difference to me.

Personally, life imprisonment is far worse than death anyway. Thats my own personal idea of hell. if i ever got convicted just kill me so i can get on with whatever is on the other side.

Cosmo

MrSmith wrote:

i dont have any moral problem with killing a murderer. A murderer forfeits his own rights to life. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, as either you believe one way or another and thats it.


that said, the execution system is a joke. its expensive (as it exists now), doesn't prevent crime, may be cruel and unusual in some forms, and too many mistakes are made. So I'm fine with getting rid of it. makes no difference to me.

Personally, life imprisonment is far worse than death anyway. Thats my own personal idea of hell. if i ever got convicted just kill me so i can get on with whatever is on the other side.

...
You got that right. Prison is Hell on Earth. Anyone that thinks prison is a cake walk... 3 square meals a day, cable t.v., recreation center... they can have it. If they don't mind the cornholeing and having to suck Big Dick Black on a nightly basis... that's on them. I'd choose 'Suicide By Cop' before i'd ever go to any damn prison.

Jeanie

MrSmith wrote:

i dont have any moral problem with killing a murderer. A murderer forfeits his own rights to life. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, as either you believe one way or another and thats it.


that said, the execution system is a joke. its expensive (as it exists now), doesn't prevent crime, may be cruel and unusual in some forms, and too many mistakes are made. So I'm fine with getting rid of it. makes no difference to me.

Personally, life imprisonment is far worse than death anyway. Thats my own personal idea of hell. if i ever got convicted just kill me so i can get on with whatever is on the other side.

Ok, cool that's how you see it but can I ask a question please?
Would you be able to do it? Kill the murderer? Supposing you were a prison guard and you knew these prisoners on death row. Would you be able to execute them?
I only ask because I don't see me being able to do it. And therefore I don't expect anyone else to do it for me. The only circumstances I could see myself ending the life of another is if I was fighting for my own life or that of a loved one and we were in unspeakable danger and the death of someone was the only option to stop the situation. OR if someone I loved was suffering or could potentially suffer and they wanted my help to assist them to die. Or if I accidently killed someone.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

Jeanie wrote:

Ok, cool that's how you see it but can I ask a question please?
Would you be able to do it? Kill the murderer? Supposing you were a prison guard and you knew these prisoners on death row. Would you be able to execute them?
I only ask because I don't see me being able to do it. And therefore I don't expect anyone else to do it for me. The only circumstances I could see myself ending the life of another is if I was fighting for my own life or that of a loved one and we were in unspeakable danger and the death of someone was the only option to stop the situation. OR if someone I loved was suffering or could potentially suffer and they wanted my help to assist them to die. Or if I accidently killed someone.

I dunno. I suppose i could, but I'd have to be damn sure he was guilty, i wouldnt do it otherwise. I probably wouldn't want to unless i was personally affected, honestly (which is why i never majored in executing). I don't have a problem with people who are affected wanting execution, or others carrying it out.

Commy

onelongsong wrote:

i wonder why this board is so fast to defend criminals without knowing any background. why so many are against the death penalty for those who cannot be permitted in society; be it our society or the prison society. what good do we do keeping these people alive? if death is the end; and all we can offer these criminals is solitary confinement; we've ended all quality of life anyway. what is the purpose of prolonging the biological aspects of that life?

also; why doesn't anyone consider the innocent victims? in all the threads over many years; the innocent victims are never mentioned.
i'm trying to understand. i would gladly give my life for several people i know. and i'd take the life of a criminal to save an innocent life.
can someone explain why the life of someone that cannot function is society is worth more than someone who can?

Think you need to look at society first before you can answer that. not everyone fits in this society-and some people dont' realize that and act...in ways that we consider criminal. Who are we to execute them?

meme

onelongsong wrote:

first; i need to explain. robbers caught in the act do deserve another chance. robbers caught in the act AND INTENT ON DOING BODILY HARM OR DEATH to those inside the house; give up that right. maybe it's better explained by saying that if you try to kill me or do bodily harm to me; YOU give me the right to defend myself.

as to being out of character; i post very often that i will take the extreeme side to get the debate heated. when the debate gets heated; we learn much more about peoples feelings. for example; the horn thread. if it didn't get heated; there'd be a dozen posts saying he was wrong and it's a shame about the 2 dead guys. because it did get heated; it went on 12 plus pages and i learned a lot about the people here and how they really feel. i think horn was wrong and i posted that early in the thread.

I see. Well, I completely misunderstood you. Of course the use of violence in self-defense is a whole other issue, and I agree with you there.

And thanks for all the explanation

Jeanie

MrSmith wrote:

I dunno. I suppose i could, but I'd have to be damn sure he was guilty, i wouldnt do it otherwise. I probably wouldn't want to unless i was personally affected, honestly(which is why a never majored in executing). I don't have a problem with people who are affected wanting execution, or others carrying it out.

haha! Can anyone actually major in executing?

Fair enough. I mean obviously there are folk that agree with you because we still have execution, and obviously executioners.

I'm not so sure that grieving families are the best people to judge whether or not there should be execution. I can understand them wanting it, but I'm not sure what they feel it will give them. I doubt it would be peace of mind.

Byrnzie

Life is precious because it's a mystery. Until we understand what fully constitutes a human being - which I believe we never will - then we have no business extinguishing the life of one, including the life of someone who has erred in someway, be it murder, or otherwise.

norm

baraka and cate both eloquently express my thoughts on the matter however.....

onelongsong wrote:

i wonder why this board is so fast to defend criminals without knowing any background. why so many are against the death penalty for those who cannot be permitted in society; be it our society or the prison society. what good do we do keeping these people alive? if death is the end; and all we can offer these criminals is solitary confinement; we've ended all quality of life anyway. what is the purpose of prolonging the biological aspects of that life?

also; why doesn't anyone consider the innocent victims? in all the threads over many years; the innocent victims are never mentioned.
i'm trying to understand. i would gladly give my life for several people i know. and i'd take the life of a criminal to save an innocent life.
can someone explain why the life of someone that cannot function is society is worth more than someone who can?

......i guess my question to you is why is property and material items more important to you than a humans life? what was accomplished by mr. horn killing those 2 burglars? sure they aren't gonna burgle again but does that equate taking their lives? and who were the victims in this case? in the end, it's mr horn.....because of his and your attitude toward frontier justice, he has to live with the fact that he took 2 lives.....and regardless of how you like to twist it, his life was never in danger nor would it ever had been if he had simply called the police and given them as much information as he could.....vigilantism will not solve crime.....you know ols i used to think much the way you do.....but having watch on of my best friends die of brian tumor, another friend whom i had lost contact with kill herself and watching my mother be diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, i realized that all the bullshit that made me think the way i was thinking was just that...bullshit.....i'm not gonna get all pissed because some kid tagged my wall the other day....it's wasted energy....i've reported it and will do something to see that it doesn't happen again.....now as for the person that killed the co-owner of the sushi restaurant not more than an 1/8th of a mile from my house.....i'd like to see him in a 6x9 cell for the rest of his life with only one hour of the day to for showering, etc......to me that's better than getting the easy way out which is the death penalty.....


life is precious because it's all one has and it's a temporary item.....