mainly becos life is all we've got. it's the only thing i have to lose that i really can't get back. that said, im not afraid to die and i don't think human life is all that special compared to animals or plants or whatever else. just that mine happens to be rather important to me, and becos i imagine most other people feel the same way about their lives, i don't support taking that life lightly.
but i don't oppose the death penalty for that reason. i oppose it becos it's cheaper and safer and life in prison keeps us plenty safe.
i agree with you and that's why you and i don't put ourselves in the position to lose our lives over something as stupid as committing crimes. i am willing to protect my life because it is important to me; but so is the quality of my life.
boy, you hang out with some savory characters. how come so many of your buddies have a knack for felony convictions? even more remarkable is how many of them are framed or falsely accused! yet you support the death penalty... good thing that person wasn't testifying against your friend in a murder trial.
I know you make some pretty extreme comments in regard to OLS posts, but this was funny.
"The leads are weak!"
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
i agree with you and that's why you and i don't put ourselves in the position to lose our lives over something as stupid as committing crimes. i am willing to protect my life because it is important to me; but so is the quality of my life.
quality of life is incredibly subjective, as is what is worth risking one's life for.
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Regarding you subject title, "Why Do You Think Human Life Is So Precious?"...
My answer is... it's the only life we are certain we possess. There are no guarantees on anything beyond death's portal.
And you may believe you would gladly give your life for others... but, you don't know that. You will only know that if the situation arises where it really comes down to your life or theirs. Other than that.. they are merely empty words. My guess is that when we are on our death beds... and the last bits of life leaves our bodies... we will all want more.
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As for Crime and Punishment... life in prison is considered punishment in my books.
i have been in that position and i've been held at gunpoint with a shotgun inches from my head. i've put myself in the line of fire to save another life. that's why i'm asking the question.
you're right about being on our deathbeds. when life left my body; i wanted more. it made me fight to survive.
I know you make some pretty extreme comments in regard to OLS posts, but this was funny.
if he ever passes the bar; he too will meet a lot of shady people. he will defend people he knows are innocent and he will get people off that he knows are guilty as hell. he's young and doesn't know the real world yet. how can he; he hasn't been in it yet.
i have been in that position and i've been held at gunpoint with a shotgun inches from my head. i've put myself in the line of fire to save another life. that's why i'm asking the question.
you're right about being on our deathbeds. when life left my body; i wanted more. it made me fight to survive.
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Please... someone record this.
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What kind of shit do you get into? You did not give your life for someone else... you are not dead... at least, not this time. To give your life for someone else means you took the bullet intended for them. You just happen to be a victim.
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Also... you have killed and have already died. If anyone here on this board... I would imaginre YOU to be the one who would KNOW why life is worth it and YOU would be the one most likely to be against state sponsored killing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
if he ever passes the bar; he too will meet a lot of shady people. he will defend people he knows are innocent and he will get people off that he knows are guilty as hell. he's young and doesn't know the real world yet. how can he; he hasn't been in it yet.
i was talking about your friends, not your clients dude. and how so many of your close friends got framed for molesting kids and burglary and so on and so forth. and asking why you support the state killing people when you claim to know firsthand that the state has a tendency to convict innocent people of crimes they didn't commit.
A few things to open up about "not being able to function in society". First we could start by killing every (yes I will use the word) retarded person in society who contribute nothing but drool on their chests. Even those not that incapcitated would equal up to being axed from "our" society. Same could be said for older folks who suffer serious strokes, heart attacks, etc, and have to ride the wagon and waste in "our" society. Fine line we pick to just say this about prisoners and people who kill innocent victims in this life. I am for the death penalty for asshats that kill, rape, maim as leaving them in prison to me seems like a waste of time. Sure somebody will say "they have to think about it". Well I will say that in my years on this Earth that when I really think about death, I don't need to be in some cell for it to bother me. Anybody who says it is different for them because they are in a cell is kidding themselves. Nobody escapes here easy and I have seen my fair share of friends do stupid things because of thoughts in their heads.
I couldn't imagine from a parent's view that their child no matter how much care they need or what they turn into, dosen't think that birth was a miracle and I don't think that anybody on this board could convince those same parents that their child is about to have a death sentence set upon them by the state. Yes this kind of contradicts my view on the death penalty but I am able to see the other side of the coin.
one of the most highly respected scientists in the world; is paralysed from the neck down. that retarded child can love and be loved. i had a stroke and rehabilitated to have a perfect life. i've been in a coma and i knew i was loved by those around me.
one of the most highly respected scientists in the world; is paralysed from the neck down. that retarded child can love and be loved. i had a stroke and rehabilitated to have a perfect life. i've been in a coma and i knew i was loved by those around me.
other than that; i agree with you.
Those aren't my views on it, I just threw that into the mix. To say that you and others can rehabilitate can be put forth to killers too. Now I will say that like a wild animal, once they have the taste for it, I am sure they have even less pull back and second thoughts the second time around. So do away with them. Self defence killing is a different road for me though.
i wonder why this board is so fast to defend criminals without knowing any background. why so many are against the death penalty for those who cannot be permitted in society; be it our society or the prison society. what good do we do keeping these people alive? if death is the end; and all we can offer these criminals is solitary confinement; we've ended all quality of life anyway. what is the purpose of prolonging the biological aspects of that life?
also; why doesn't anyone consider the innocent victims? in all the threads over many years; the innocent victims are never mentioned.
i'm trying to understand. i would gladly give my life for several people i know. and i'd take the life of a criminal to save an innocent life.
can someone explain why the life of someone that cannot function is society is worth more than someone who can?
OLS, you raise some difficult questions. I don't think anyone who is against the death penalty does not hold sympathy for the victims. As Raindog mentioned (and probably others, I haven't made it past the first page), the death penalty is seems like a form of revenge. Now saying that, I can't say that if my loved ones were murdered, I would not want that kind of revenge. I think it is a human response, although there have been many victims that have shown grace and forgiven the perpetrator. I think forgiveness is the healthiest and most moral approach, but it is damn hard! Although one forgives, this doesn't mean that the individual doesn't need to be removed from society permanently. There are those that are a detriment to society, that can't live among others. There can be justice without revenge.
As for petty criminals and drug addicts, I absolutely believe in redemption. I do believe folks can turn their lives around and become productive members of society. Does everyone do it? No, but a lot do. And some even go on to help & mentor others.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
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Please... someone record this.
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What kind of shit do you get into? You did not give your life for someone else... you are not dead... at least, not this time. To give your life for someone else means you took the bullet intended for them. You just happen to be a victim.
...
Also... you have killed and have already died. If anyone here on this board... I would imaginre YOU to be the one who would KNOW why life is worth it and YOU would be the one most likely to be against state sponsored killing.
you're absolutely right. i wish i could explain why i feel the way i do. that's why i'm asking for the help of others to see how they feel and why. to me; death is only birth into another life. my birth was my death from another form or kind of life.
i'm hoping someone will say something to enlighten me. probably not change my mind; but give me more insight. on the far end; maybe someone will change my mind.
OLS, you raise some difficult questions. I don't think anyone who is against the death penalty does not hold sympathy for the victims. As Raindog mentioned (and probably others, I haven't made it past the first page), the death penalty is seems like a form of revenge. Now saying that, I can't say that if my loved ones were murdered, I would not want that kind of revenge. I think it is a human response, although there have been many victims that have shown grace and forgiven the perpetrator. I think forgiveness is the healthiest and most moral approach, but it is damn hard! Although one forgives, this doesn't mean that the individual doesn't need to be removed from society permanently. There are those that are a detriment to society, that can't live among others. There can be justice without revenge.
As for petty criminals and drug addicts, I absolutely believe in redemption. I do believe folks can turn their lives around and become productive members of society. Does everyone do it? No, but a lot do. And some even go on to help & mentor others.
baraka; how do i thank you enough? how did you know my question came from the heart and not a ploy to start an argument? that answer was absolutely beautiful. from the perspective you presented; i can now see how we seek revenge for crimes against us. this post touched me deeply. i've always respected your views and the way you articulate them; but i can't thank you enough for taking the time and thought to post this. thank you baraka; thank you very much.
Those aren't my views on it, I just threw that into the mix. To say that you and others can rehabilitate can be put forth to killers too. Now I will say that like a wild animal, once they have the taste for it, I am sure they have even less pull back and second thoughts the second time around. So do away with them. Self defence killing is a different road for me though.
i didn't take those as your views. i took them as a little slap to let me know those people exist and i need to take them into consideration. i know you well enough to know those weren't your views. and i know that you know me enough to know that you had to present it that way; for me to understand better.
i was talking about your friends, not your clients dude. and how so many of your close friends got framed for molesting kids and burglary and so on and so forth. and asking why you support the state killing people when you claim to know firsthand that the state has a tendency to convict innocent people of crimes they didn't commit.
you read a lot into things. many of my analogies do not represent close friends. they represent people i have known. the sex offender tried to commit suicide in colorado. he was on his way to phoenix to say goodbye to his mother when his truck broke down in colorado. he was not a client; i'm close with his sister.
prisons are full of innocent people. someone stole my identity and i could have been one of them. agressive prosecuters are the biggest reason. but in cases where DNA or unquestionable evidence proves someone cannot be put back into society or even in the prison general population; i support the death penalty for them.
Cherish there own life maybe, but other's lives wouldn't be that important. At least thats how I would see it. If I believed life was all there was, I wouldn't give a shit about anyone but myself and do whatever it takes for survival.
I know this is kind of far back in the debate but I couldn't let it pass.
Are you suggesting that your average aethiest does not have the ability to feel empathy? Are you saying that you only have it because the bible says you should? Are you even aware how bigotted and puerile that sounds?
If you believe that without a structured system of faith you could easily disregard the value of anther human beings life then I think that says a damn sight more about your morality than mine or the average aethiest.
As an adult with the ability to reason I don't refrain from killing people because society dictates it's wrong or because it's the sixth commandment. I do it because I have the understanding of why it's wrong, because I have an understanding of the concequences not just for me but for the victim, their family and so on. In other words I have the capacity for empathy.
You obviously feel you would not have this without your faith so thank fuck you found God or we could scarcely imagine the trail of dead.
you read a lot into things. many of my analogies do not represent close friends. they represent people i have known. the sex offender tried to commit suicide in colorado. he was on his way to phoenix to say goodbye to his mother when his truck broke down in colorado. he was not a client; i'm close with his sister.
prisons are full of innocent people. someone stole my identity and i could have been one of them. agressive prosecuters are the biggest reason. but in cases where DNA or unquestionable evidence proves someone cannot be put back into society or even in the prison general population; i support the death penalty for them.
but what constitutes unquestionable evidence? isn't that kind of subjective? otherwise, you wouldn't have any false convictions.
i wonder why this board is so fast to defend criminals without knowing any background. why so many are against the death penalty for those who cannot be permitted in society; be it our society or the prison society. what good do we do keeping these people alive? if death is the end; and all we can offer these criminals is solitary confinement; we've ended all quality of life anyway. what is the purpose of prolonging the biological aspects of that life?
also; why doesn't anyone consider the innocent victims? in all the threads over many years; the innocent victims are never mentioned.
i'm trying to understand. i would gladly give my life for several people i know. and i'd take the life of a criminal to save an innocent life.
can someone explain why the life of someone that cannot function is society is worth more than someone who can?
I'm not sure it's about the life of a perpetrator being worth more than that of their victim or anybody else. I just don't see how state sanctioned killing in any way diminishes the actions of the perpetrator OR offers any opportunity for redemption. It certainly doesn't afford anyone the opportunity to understand WHY something has happened and HOW to fix it. In other words you can kill the killer but what does it say about you? HOW does it do anything other than create more victims? Like the killers family for instance? It isn't going to return the dead victim to their family, it only serves as a panacea for society's need for revenge. The best revenge is to live well. As in the case of say Martin Bryant (Australian mass murderer) WHY should he be allowed the release of death? I'm quite sure that what he did must drive him to the edge of despair some days and I think that's a good thing. Call me mercenary, I don't care, the man did appalling things for no apparent reason, he is not able to be rehabilitated, the death penalty would have ended his suffering and I think he should have a nice long life so that he can think every day about those poor poor people that he hunted down and killed. ESPECIALLY the Mikac family. He can rot in jail for all I care. He can spend EVERY single day from that one to the end of his life going completely mad for all I care. He'll be alone, he'll be fed, he'll be cared for on a basic level but other human beings will never interact with him on a more intimate, friendly level. There really isn't anything else that can be done with the man and I see no reason to afford him any priviledge at all. He offered none to his victims.
I'm not so sure that human life is so precious. Obviously I wish that we could all live healthy, happy and productive lives but I'm not for life above all else. I support abortion, euthanasia, suicide, assisted suicide. If my dog was suffering I'd have it put down so I don't see why this isn't an option for humans that are suffering.
I can only say that I'm sick and tired of endless crime, particularly violent crime against another, and yeah, sure people grow up in heinous circumstances and have horrific things happen to them that start them on a path BUT my upbringing was no bed of roses and I've not felt the need to break the law or inflict violence on others and I know plenty of other people with shitty upbringings don't either.
you're absolutely right. i wish i could explain why i feel the way i do. that's why i'm asking for the help of others to see how they feel and why. to me; death is only birth into another life. my birth was my death from another form or kind of life.
i'm hoping someone will say something to enlighten me. probably not change my mind; but give me more insight. on the far end; maybe someone will change my mind.
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I don't know anyone who has died and been resurrected back to life. I've heard stories, but have never been able to verify them.
But... I have known a few who have died. They have not come back to tell me what (if anything) is on the otherside. All I know is that when they were confronted with their own mortality... all they cared about were the people they love and the people who love them. Taxes, politics, money... all of that did not matter. It was people. To them... I believe... if given a second chance at life would grab onto it with both hands and truely live and appreciate life and how fragile it is. It's not about money and tax loopholes and gold investments... or holding contempt against some poor Mexican coming here looking for work... or 'lazy' poor people who are looking for free handouts... or criminals that deserve to be put to death. It would be more about living and letting others live.
Well, okay... those things are my points of views, not theirs. But, I don't need to die and come back to life to see this. I already believe this.
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No one is going to 'enlighten' you. If you think you'll find answers from others... especially from people whose opinions you think are shit... well, you are looking in the wrong place. i would think that your near death experience would have provided you with, at least, a clue. I guess not.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not sure it's about the life of a perpetrator being worth more than that of their victim or anybody else. I just don't see how state sanctioned killing in any way diminishes the actions of the perpetrator OR offers any opportunity for redemption. It certainly doesn't afford anyone the opportunity to understand WHY something has happened and HOW to fix it. In other words you can kill the killer but what does it say about you? HOW does it do anything other than create more victims? Like the killers family for instance? It isn't going to return the dead victim to their family, it only serves as a panacea for society's need for revenge. The best revenge is to live well. As in the case of say Martin Bryant (Australian mass murderer) WHY should he be allowed the release of death? I'm quite sure that what he did must drive him to the edge of despair some days and I think that's a good thing. Call me mercenary, I don't care, the man did appalling things for no apparent reason, he is not able to be rehabilitated, the death penalty would have ended his suffering and I think he should have a nice long life so that he can think every day about those poor poor people that he hunted down and killed. ESPECIALLY the Mikac family. He can rot in jail for all I care. He can spend EVERY single day from that one to the end of his life going completely mad for all I care. He'll be alone, he'll be fed, he'll be cared for on a basic level but other human beings will never interact with him on a more intimate, friendly level. There really isn't anything else that can be done with the man and I see no reason to afford him any priviledge at all. He offered none to his victims.
In a nut shell the best argument against the death penalty as a punishment.
The only other real argument is as a deterrent but the threat of execution does not cut murder rates anywhere it is applied for one simple reason. Most criminals don't think they will be caught.
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I don't know anyone who has died and been resurrected back to life. I've heard stories, but have never been able to verify them.
But... I have known a few who have died. They have not come back to tell me what (if anything) is on the otherside. All I know is that when they were confronted with their own mortality... all they cared about were the people they love and the people who love them. Taxes, politics, money... all of that did not matter. It was people. To them... I believe... if given a second chance at life would grab onto it with both hands and truely live and appreciate life and how fragile it is. It's not about money and tax loopholes and gold investments... or holding contempt against some poor Mexican coming here looking for work... or 'lazy' poor people who are looking for free handouts... or criminals that deserve to be put to death. It would be more about living and letting others live.
Well, okay... those things are my points of views, not theirs. But, I don't need to die and come back to life to see this. I already believe this.
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No one is going to 'enlighten' you. If you think you'll find answers from others... especially from people whose opinions you think are shit... well, you are looking in the wrong place. i would think that your near death experience would have provided you with, at least, a clue. I guess not.
i've offered to fax you my surgical report several times so you could verify this. i've even asked you to take the report to a doctor for a professional opinion.
as far as the rest; baraka did enlighten me. and all the things you listed are a part of life. just as with the first time; i'm not believing what the doctors say. in my mind; i'll live another 40 or 50 years like the rest of my family. i believe i'll beat whatever life throws at me.
now; as far as thinking others opinions are shit; i respect more opinions here then not. i believe i just told you i respected what you posted earlier. did you bother to look? if i thought others opinions were shit here; i wouldn't come here. i consider most of the people here like family. when i was seriously ill a few months ago; they sent well wishes. they understand we'll lock horns and disagree and also that i'll do what i can to get a discussion heated at times. but on this note; you're way out of line.
you read a lot into things. many of my analogies do not represent close friends. they represent people i have known. the sex offender tried to commit suicide in colorado. he was on his way to phoenix to say goodbye to his mother when his truck broke down in colorado. he was not a client; i'm close with his sister.
prisons are full of innocent people. someone stole my identity and i could have been one of them. agressive prosecuters are the biggest reason. but in cases where DNA or unquestionable evidence proves someone cannot be put back into society or even in the prison general population; i support the death penalty for them.
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If the prisons are 'filled with innocent people'... why would you support the Death Penalty? If we, as the state, killed them... don't they become 'innocent victims'?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I know this is kind of far back in the debate but I couldn't let it pass.
Are you suggesting that your average aethiest does not have the ability to feel empathy? Are you saying that you only have it because the bible says you should? Are you even aware how bigotted and puerile that sounds?
If you believe that without a structured system of faith you could easily disregard the value of anther human beings life then I think that says a damn sight more about your morality than mine or the average aethiest.
As an adult with the ability to reason I don't refrain from killing people because society dictates it's wrong or because it's the sixth commandment. I do it because I have the understanding of why it's wrong, because I have an understanding of the concequences not just for me but for the victim, their family and so on. In other words I have the capacity for empathy, but then again so is my belief of some kind of karma when you die.
You obviously feel you would not have this without your faith so thank fuck you found God or we could scarcely imagine the trail of dead.
I will explain further, came off a little wrong. I'm not particularly religious. I'm more of the Deist/spiritual type. I'm just saying that if I didn't believe there was some greater meaning or afterlife, I wouldn't care about anything but my own survival, and thats if I cared about anything at all. If I cease to exist after death, than my life is pointless, and so is everyone else's. Whats the harm in ushering others off into nonexistence? We are just water filled fleshbags.
I'm not saying thats what all atheists believe, but from a logical standpoint, I would have to agree with Stalin if I were a true atheist. I mean, lets face it, the man lived a happy, rich life, and since he doesnt exist after death and there is no big karma/hell/cosmic justice or whatever, sounds to me he had the right idea, since everyone he "killed" were just a random collection of matter with no real purpose. Live life for the maximum amount of pleasure, because we all cease to exist after life. My caring for other life would pretty much end with me and my close friends and family. Everybody else could go fuck themselves.
Why do you as an atheist believe in the sanctity of life? Seems to me that the only reason is fear of punishment, just like religious people. Don't be so high and mighty. We're all slaves to Pain and Pleasure. I would also argue that your "empathy" is just something modern society impressed on you, but then again so is my belief in some kind of payback when one dies i guess.
I'm not flaming, just wondering aloud. Its interesting to me. People can think whatever they want, as long as they dont get in my face with it.
i've offered to fax you my surgical report several times so you could verify this. i've even asked you to take the report to a doctor for a professional opinion.
as far as the rest; baraka did enlighten me. and all the things you listed are a part of life. just as with the first time; i'm not believing what the doctors say. in my mind; i'll live another 40 or 50 years like the rest of my family. i believe i'll beat whatever life throws at me.
now; as far as thinking others opinions are shit; i respect more opinions here then not. i believe i just told you i respected what you posted earlier. did you bother to look? if i thought others opinions were shit here; i wouldn't come here. i consider most of the people here like family. when i was seriously ill a few months ago; they sent well wishes. they understand we'll lock horns and disagree and also that i'll do what i can to get a discussion heated at times. but on this note; you're way out of line.
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Offered to FAX medical records? Uh... nope. Never happened.
But, if it is an open offer, please attach it to a Private Message because I would like to see it out of curiosity... thanx. I specifically would like the see the section that states your official time of death and the subsequent procedures that were employed to restore you to life. If there is any references to this specific case (yours) in any published medical journals that you are aware of... please, direct me to those articles, too. These kinds of stories fascinate me.
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***NOTE: The person I had heard stories of Resurrection that I have not yet been able to verify... it was Jesus.***
A book that was in the sole possession of the Church Of Rome for about 1,500 years holds a lot of skepticism in my view. But, since you've offered up your records... sure, i'd like to see them.
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And for the record... I may be old.. but, my memory is still in pretty good shape. I have read many comments from you stating that people whom have come up with countering opinions didn't know what they were talking about... even when they provided factual data to support their views.
Now, may you have changed from the last month and now view our opinions as that.... I don't know. I feel that enlightenment usually comes from within, not from someone else. Knowledge comes from the outside sources.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Offered to FAX medical records? Uh... nope. Never happened.
But, if it is an open offer, please attach it to a Private Message because I would like to see it out of curiosity... thanx. I specifically would like the see the section that states your official time of death and the subsequent procedures that were employed to restore you to life. If there is any references to this specific case (yours) in any published medical journals that you are aware of... please, direct me to those articles, too. These kinds of stories fascinate me.
...
***NOTE: The person I had heard stories of Resurrection that I have not yet been able to verify... it was Jesus.***
A book that was in the sole possession of the Church Of Rome for about 1,500 years holds a lot of skepticism in my view. But, since you've offered up your records... sure, i'd like to see them.
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And for the record... I may be old.. but, my memory is still in pretty good shape. I have read many comments from you stating that people whom have come up with countering opinions didn't know what they were talking about... even when they provided factual data to support their views.
Now, may you have changed from the last month and now view our opinions as that.... I don't know. I feel that enlightenment usually comes from within, not from someone else. Knowledge comes from the outside sources.
i'll scan the report into the computer; you tell me how to attach it to a PM. if i could've attached it to a PM; i would have done so years ago to shut you up. no disrespect intended.
i'm getting hit with a big storm and may lose my internet access (satellite) but i will be back to address this and every post i miss.
sorry to everyone.
i'll scan the report into the computer; you tell me how to attach it to a PM. if i could've attached it to a PM; i would have done so years ago to shut you up. no disrespect intended.
i'm getting hit with a big storm and may lose my internet access (satellite) but i will be back to address this and every post i miss.
sorry to everyone.
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Thanx. And nope... never offered them... never sent them. Because if it ever did happened... I would have said, "Sure... send 'em".
You know what a skeptic I am... and if you didn't know... you know now.
Thanx.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm just saying that if I didn't believe there was some greater meaning or afterlife, I wouldn't care about anything but my own survival, and thats if I cared about anything at all.
I've seen a lot of dogs that go crazy to protect their owners and would do anything for them...clearly caring about what happens to them. Do dogs believe in an afterlife or a "greater meaning?"
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
Don't be so high and mighty. Why do you as an atheist believe in the sanctity of life? Seems to me that the only reason is fear of punishment, just like religious people. I would also argue that your "empathy" is just something modern society impressed on you.
I'm not flaming, just wondering aloud. Its interesting to me.
I found your post fairly insulting and it got my back up so I'm sorry if it it came across as a being a bit "arsey" or hostile. I'm honestly not flaming either.
So to answer your question...
Obviously the society we live in helps to shape our moral values but that doesn't mean we take them all at face value. We all choose to adhere to what we believe is right, disagree with what we don't and disregard what we think we can get away with. In the end it's our own moral code that dictates.
I have no fear of retribution in the afterlife so that doesn't dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do. Fear of going to prison (or not wanting to take the risk) probably stops me from doing any number of petty crimes which I could choose to think of as victimless if I wanted to if I'm completely honest. However I know for a fact that if I wanted to I could commit a random act of violence and get away with it, I have seen it done many times. I have also been a victim of this kind of crime and know full well the impact it can have on someone. I couldn't bring myself to inflict this on another human being knowing what it did to me. I have never really understood the thinking of the people who do it.
I also couldn't bring myself to kill another for the simple fact that I'm not all that keen on the idea of dying so what gives me the right to decide some else's life should end? They no doubt have people who love them who would feel a very real pain if I chose to commit this act. I understand this pain and would not wish to cause it to anyone else.
Stalin was a sociopath as was Hitler. Unfortunately there are many of these kind of people out there who don't really give a fuck about other human beings. I'm glad that I'm not one of them.
I've seen a lot of dogs that go crazy to protect their owners and would do anything for them...clearly caring about what happens to them. Do dogs believe in an afterlife or a "greater meaning?"
maybe they just like the free food they get
I don't know, I have a sense of empathy too. I wouldn't go out of my way to hurt anybody, and I generally feel good about helping people for no reason, but part of me feels that it was noticed somewhere and that what goes around comes around. Never know if that sense comes from internal or external sources, though.
i wonder why this board is so fast to defend criminals without knowing any background. why so many are against the death penalty for those who cannot be permitted in society; be it our society or the prison society. what good do we do keeping these people alive? if death is the end; and all we can offer these criminals is solitary confinement; we've ended all quality of life anyway. what is the purpose of prolonging the biological aspects of that life?
also; why doesn't anyone consider the innocent victims? in all the threads over many years; the innocent victims are never mentioned.
i'm trying to understand. i would gladly give my life for several people i know. and i'd take the life of a criminal to save an innocent life.
can someone explain why the life of someone that cannot function is society is worth more than someone who can?
you know tis not the criminal we defend but the human life. sure laws are broken but that doesnt mean we should take it upon ourselves as a society and break the biggest rule of all. we say we are above the animals but when we kill our own kind in anger and revenge, we are not. state sanctioned murder is still murder. warehousing people in jails does not address the issues we have to confront as a society. but it sure is convenient to have them out of the way where we dont have to be confronted with our shortcomings as a society and theirs as fellow human beings. i find it interesting that there are times when we 'worship' the agressor and others where we do not. if we trully valued human life as we say we do then the societies in which we live would be vastly different places.
the life of a criminal is not worth MORE than that of a so called innocent. it has equal value. if you do wrong yes you should be punished. but execution only hardens a society and diminishes the worth of all life.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
i agree with you and that's why you and i don't put ourselves in the position to lose our lives over something as stupid as committing crimes. i am willing to protect my life because it is important to me; but so is the quality of my life.
I know you make some pretty extreme comments in regard to OLS posts, but this was funny.
"The leads are weak? Fuckin' leads are weak? You're Weak! I've Been in this business 15 years"
"What's your name?"
"FUCK YOU! THAT"S MY NAME!"
quality of life is incredibly subjective, as is what is worth risking one's life for.
i have been in that position and i've been held at gunpoint with a shotgun inches from my head. i've put myself in the line of fire to save another life. that's why i'm asking the question.
you're right about being on our deathbeds. when life left my body; i wanted more. it made me fight to survive.
if he ever passes the bar; he too will meet a lot of shady people. he will defend people he knows are innocent and he will get people off that he knows are guilty as hell. he's young and doesn't know the real world yet. how can he; he hasn't been in it yet.
Please... someone record this.
...
What kind of shit do you get into? You did not give your life for someone else... you are not dead... at least, not this time. To give your life for someone else means you took the bullet intended for them. You just happen to be a victim.
...
Also... you have killed and have already died. If anyone here on this board... I would imaginre YOU to be the one who would KNOW why life is worth it and YOU would be the one most likely to be against state sponsored killing.
Hail, Hail!!!
i was talking about your friends, not your clients dude. and how so many of your close friends got framed for molesting kids and burglary and so on and so forth. and asking why you support the state killing people when you claim to know firsthand that the state has a tendency to convict innocent people of crimes they didn't commit.
one of the most highly respected scientists in the world; is paralysed from the neck down. that retarded child can love and be loved. i had a stroke and rehabilitated to have a perfect life. i've been in a coma and i knew i was loved by those around me.
other than that; i agree with you.
Those aren't my views on it, I just threw that into the mix. To say that you and others can rehabilitate can be put forth to killers too. Now I will say that like a wild animal, once they have the taste for it, I am sure they have even less pull back and second thoughts the second time around. So do away with them. Self defence killing is a different road for me though.
OLS, you raise some difficult questions. I don't think anyone who is against the death penalty does not hold sympathy for the victims. As Raindog mentioned (and probably others, I haven't made it past the first page), the death penalty is seems like a form of revenge. Now saying that, I can't say that if my loved ones were murdered, I would not want that kind of revenge. I think it is a human response, although there have been many victims that have shown grace and forgiven the perpetrator. I think forgiveness is the healthiest and most moral approach, but it is damn hard! Although one forgives, this doesn't mean that the individual doesn't need to be removed from society permanently. There are those that are a detriment to society, that can't live among others. There can be justice without revenge.
As for petty criminals and drug addicts, I absolutely believe in redemption. I do believe folks can turn their lives around and become productive members of society. Does everyone do it? No, but a lot do. And some even go on to help & mentor others.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
you're absolutely right. i wish i could explain why i feel the way i do. that's why i'm asking for the help of others to see how they feel and why. to me; death is only birth into another life. my birth was my death from another form or kind of life.
i'm hoping someone will say something to enlighten me. probably not change my mind; but give me more insight. on the far end; maybe someone will change my mind.
baraka; how do i thank you enough? how did you know my question came from the heart and not a ploy to start an argument? that answer was absolutely beautiful. from the perspective you presented; i can now see how we seek revenge for crimes against us. this post touched me deeply. i've always respected your views and the way you articulate them; but i can't thank you enough for taking the time and thought to post this. thank you baraka; thank you very much.
i didn't take those as your views. i took them as a little slap to let me know those people exist and i need to take them into consideration. i know you well enough to know those weren't your views. and i know that you know me enough to know that you had to present it that way; for me to understand better.
you read a lot into things. many of my analogies do not represent close friends. they represent people i have known. the sex offender tried to commit suicide in colorado. he was on his way to phoenix to say goodbye to his mother when his truck broke down in colorado. he was not a client; i'm close with his sister.
prisons are full of innocent people. someone stole my identity and i could have been one of them. agressive prosecuters are the biggest reason. but in cases where DNA or unquestionable evidence proves someone cannot be put back into society or even in the prison general population; i support the death penalty for them.
I know this is kind of far back in the debate but I couldn't let it pass.
Are you suggesting that your average aethiest does not have the ability to feel empathy? Are you saying that you only have it because the bible says you should? Are you even aware how bigotted and puerile that sounds?
If you believe that without a structured system of faith you could easily disregard the value of anther human beings life then I think that says a damn sight more about your morality than mine or the average aethiest.
As an adult with the ability to reason I don't refrain from killing people because society dictates it's wrong or because it's the sixth commandment. I do it because I have the understanding of why it's wrong, because I have an understanding of the concequences not just for me but for the victim, their family and so on. In other words I have the capacity for empathy.
You obviously feel you would not have this without your faith so thank fuck you found God or we could scarcely imagine the trail of dead.
http://www.myspace.com/hollowpointuk
but what constitutes unquestionable evidence? isn't that kind of subjective? otherwise, you wouldn't have any false convictions.
I'm not sure it's about the life of a perpetrator being worth more than that of their victim or anybody else. I just don't see how state sanctioned killing in any way diminishes the actions of the perpetrator OR offers any opportunity for redemption. It certainly doesn't afford anyone the opportunity to understand WHY something has happened and HOW to fix it. In other words you can kill the killer but what does it say about you? HOW does it do anything other than create more victims? Like the killers family for instance? It isn't going to return the dead victim to their family, it only serves as a panacea for society's need for revenge. The best revenge is to live well. As in the case of say Martin Bryant (Australian mass murderer) WHY should he be allowed the release of death? I'm quite sure that what he did must drive him to the edge of despair some days and I think that's a good thing. Call me mercenary, I don't care, the man did appalling things for no apparent reason, he is not able to be rehabilitated, the death penalty would have ended his suffering and I think he should have a nice long life so that he can think every day about those poor poor people that he hunted down and killed. ESPECIALLY the Mikac family. He can rot in jail for all I care. He can spend EVERY single day from that one to the end of his life going completely mad for all I care. He'll be alone, he'll be fed, he'll be cared for on a basic level but other human beings will never interact with him on a more intimate, friendly level. There really isn't anything else that can be done with the man and I see no reason to afford him any priviledge at all. He offered none to his victims.
I'm not so sure that human life is so precious. Obviously I wish that we could all live healthy, happy and productive lives but I'm not for life above all else. I support abortion, euthanasia, suicide, assisted suicide. If my dog was suffering I'd have it put down so I don't see why this isn't an option for humans that are suffering.
I can only say that I'm sick and tired of endless crime, particularly violent crime against another, and yeah, sure people grow up in heinous circumstances and have horrific things happen to them that start them on a path BUT my upbringing was no bed of roses and I've not felt the need to break the law or inflict violence on others and I know plenty of other people with shitty upbringings don't either.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I don't know anyone who has died and been resurrected back to life. I've heard stories, but have never been able to verify them.
But... I have known a few who have died. They have not come back to tell me what (if anything) is on the otherside. All I know is that when they were confronted with their own mortality... all they cared about were the people they love and the people who love them. Taxes, politics, money... all of that did not matter. It was people. To them... I believe... if given a second chance at life would grab onto it with both hands and truely live and appreciate life and how fragile it is. It's not about money and tax loopholes and gold investments... or holding contempt against some poor Mexican coming here looking for work... or 'lazy' poor people who are looking for free handouts... or criminals that deserve to be put to death. It would be more about living and letting others live.
Well, okay... those things are my points of views, not theirs. But, I don't need to die and come back to life to see this. I already believe this.
...
No one is going to 'enlighten' you. If you think you'll find answers from others... especially from people whose opinions you think are shit... well, you are looking in the wrong place. i would think that your near death experience would have provided you with, at least, a clue. I guess not.
Hail, Hail!!!
In a nut shell the best argument against the death penalty as a punishment.
The only other real argument is as a deterrent but the threat of execution does not cut murder rates anywhere it is applied for one simple reason. Most criminals don't think they will be caught.
http://www.myspace.com/hollowpointuk
i've offered to fax you my surgical report several times so you could verify this. i've even asked you to take the report to a doctor for a professional opinion.
as far as the rest; baraka did enlighten me. and all the things you listed are a part of life. just as with the first time; i'm not believing what the doctors say. in my mind; i'll live another 40 or 50 years like the rest of my family. i believe i'll beat whatever life throws at me.
now; as far as thinking others opinions are shit; i respect more opinions here then not. i believe i just told you i respected what you posted earlier. did you bother to look? if i thought others opinions were shit here; i wouldn't come here. i consider most of the people here like family. when i was seriously ill a few months ago; they sent well wishes. they understand we'll lock horns and disagree and also that i'll do what i can to get a discussion heated at times. but on this note; you're way out of line.
If the prisons are 'filled with innocent people'... why would you support the Death Penalty? If we, as the state, killed them... don't they become 'innocent victims'?
Hail, Hail!!!
I will explain further, came off a little wrong. I'm not particularly religious. I'm more of the Deist/spiritual type. I'm just saying that if I didn't believe there was some greater meaning or afterlife, I wouldn't care about anything but my own survival, and thats if I cared about anything at all. If I cease to exist after death, than my life is pointless, and so is everyone else's. Whats the harm in ushering others off into nonexistence? We are just water filled fleshbags.
I'm not saying thats what all atheists believe, but from a logical standpoint, I would have to agree with Stalin if I were a true atheist. I mean, lets face it, the man lived a happy, rich life, and since he doesnt exist after death and there is no big karma/hell/cosmic justice or whatever, sounds to me he had the right idea, since everyone he "killed" were just a random collection of matter with no real purpose. Live life for the maximum amount of pleasure, because we all cease to exist after life. My caring for other life would pretty much end with me and my close friends and family. Everybody else could go fuck themselves.
Why do you as an atheist believe in the sanctity of life? Seems to me that the only reason is fear of punishment, just like religious people. Don't be so high and mighty. We're all slaves to Pain and Pleasure. I would also argue that your "empathy" is just something modern society impressed on you, but then again so is my belief in some kind of payback when one dies i guess.
I'm not flaming, just wondering aloud. Its interesting to me. People can think whatever they want, as long as they dont get in my face with it.
Offered to FAX medical records? Uh... nope. Never happened.
But, if it is an open offer, please attach it to a Private Message because I would like to see it out of curiosity... thanx. I specifically would like the see the section that states your official time of death and the subsequent procedures that were employed to restore you to life. If there is any references to this specific case (yours) in any published medical journals that you are aware of... please, direct me to those articles, too. These kinds of stories fascinate me.
...
***NOTE: The person I had heard stories of Resurrection that I have not yet been able to verify... it was Jesus.***
A book that was in the sole possession of the Church Of Rome for about 1,500 years holds a lot of skepticism in my view. But, since you've offered up your records... sure, i'd like to see them.
...
And for the record... I may be old.. but, my memory is still in pretty good shape. I have read many comments from you stating that people whom have come up with countering opinions didn't know what they were talking about... even when they provided factual data to support their views.
Now, may you have changed from the last month and now view our opinions as that.... I don't know. I feel that enlightenment usually comes from within, not from someone else. Knowledge comes from the outside sources.
Hail, Hail!!!
i'll scan the report into the computer; you tell me how to attach it to a PM. if i could've attached it to a PM; i would have done so years ago to shut you up. no disrespect intended.
i'm getting hit with a big storm and may lose my internet access (satellite) but i will be back to address this and every post i miss.
sorry to everyone.
Thanx. And nope... never offered them... never sent them. Because if it ever did happened... I would have said, "Sure... send 'em".
You know what a skeptic I am... and if you didn't know... you know now.
Thanx.
Hail, Hail!!!
I've seen a lot of dogs that go crazy to protect their owners and would do anything for them...clearly caring about what happens to them. Do dogs believe in an afterlife or a "greater meaning?"
I found your post fairly insulting and it got my back up so I'm sorry if it it came across as a being a bit "arsey" or hostile. I'm honestly not flaming either.
So to answer your question...
Obviously the society we live in helps to shape our moral values but that doesn't mean we take them all at face value. We all choose to adhere to what we believe is right, disagree with what we don't and disregard what we think we can get away with. In the end it's our own moral code that dictates.
I have no fear of retribution in the afterlife so that doesn't dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do. Fear of going to prison (or not wanting to take the risk) probably stops me from doing any number of petty crimes which I could choose to think of as victimless if I wanted to if I'm completely honest. However I know for a fact that if I wanted to I could commit a random act of violence and get away with it, I have seen it done many times. I have also been a victim of this kind of crime and know full well the impact it can have on someone. I couldn't bring myself to inflict this on another human being knowing what it did to me. I have never really understood the thinking of the people who do it.
I also couldn't bring myself to kill another for the simple fact that I'm not all that keen on the idea of dying so what gives me the right to decide some else's life should end? They no doubt have people who love them who would feel a very real pain if I chose to commit this act. I understand this pain and would not wish to cause it to anyone else.
Stalin was a sociopath as was Hitler. Unfortunately there are many of these kind of people out there who don't really give a fuck about other human beings. I'm glad that I'm not one of them.
http://www.myspace.com/hollowpointuk
maybe they just like the free food they get
I don't know, I have a sense of empathy too. I wouldn't go out of my way to hurt anybody, and I generally feel good about helping people for no reason, but part of me feels that it was noticed somewhere and that what goes around comes around. Never know if that sense comes from internal or external sources, though.
you know tis not the criminal we defend but the human life. sure laws are broken but that doesnt mean we should take it upon ourselves as a society and break the biggest rule of all. we say we are above the animals but when we kill our own kind in anger and revenge, we are not. state sanctioned murder is still murder. warehousing people in jails does not address the issues we have to confront as a society. but it sure is convenient to have them out of the way where we dont have to be confronted with our shortcomings as a society and theirs as fellow human beings. i find it interesting that there are times when we 'worship' the agressor and others where we do not. if we trully valued human life as we say we do then the societies in which we live would be vastly different places.
the life of a criminal is not worth MORE than that of a so called innocent. it has equal value. if you do wrong yes you should be punished. but execution only hardens a society and diminishes the worth of all life.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say