I'm not sure that I see what it has to do with being American. I loathe guns generally except for some circumstances and I certainly can't own one here, BUT I have lived in neighbourhoods and even with flat mates where I wish I'd had one. Not because I WANT to shoot anyone but man I'm sick and tired of being the one that gets shat on and being in fear for my life and health. And I can move, I can lock my doors, I can change my clothes and appearance, I can hide out but WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I? I'm not the one breaking in to someone elses house wishing to do them harm for whatever reason. Or trying to inflict my violent bullshit on someone else.
Fact is not EVERYWHERE is little pink houses with picket fences and Carol Brady living next door. Some places you do need to be prepared to protect yourself. She's probably devestated it came down to that but for her sake I'm glad she had the forethought and sensed the danger and was prepared. It saved her life.
you made one point here. someone breaking into someones house is prepared to do bodily harm. when you enter someone elses home; there's a good chance someone is home. and chances are they'd have to deal with them. if you look at stats; the homeowner is usually killed. why leave witnesses?
you made one point here. someone breaking into someones house is prepared to do bodily harm. when you enter someone elses home; there's a good chance someone is home. and chances are they'd have to deal with them. if you look at stats; the homeowner is usually killed. why leave witnesses?
Well I'm not so sure that burglars are even thinking that far ahead. Some sure, but I'll bet on more than a few occassions they've broken in, been surprised to find someone home and reacted violently out of fear of being caught. BUT that's not gonna do much if you're the poor sod that had the temerity to be in your own home on the wrong night. Thing is as far as I can see in that circumstance everyone is working on heightened response. So burglar freaks out you're home, home owner freaks out coz there's someone in the house. Recipe for disaster really.
you made one point here. someone breaking into someones house is prepared to do bodily harm. when you enter someone elses home; there's a good chance someone is home. and chances are they'd have to deal with them. if you look at stats; the homeowner is usually killed. why leave witnesses?
i disagree. in my experience ive found that burglaries are committed by someone who has knowledge of the intended victims schedules, in order to avoid a confrontation and make their endeavour all that much easier. maybe things are different in the united states, i dont know. maybe in the US, all burglars are busting for the chance to cause grievous harm to someone. again i don't know.
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i disagree. in my experience ive found that burglaries are committed by someone who has knowledge of the intended victims schedules, in order to avoid a confrontation and make their endeavour all that much easier. maybe things are different in the united states, i dont know. maybe in the US, all burglars are busting for the chance to cause grievous harm to someone. again i don't know.
I agree, most burglaries I've heard of here happen when the victims are away on vacation, out to work etc.
I don't think it is a bad thing gue. I'm not particularly happy with the outcome of the Horn case but as he acted within the law as it pertained to him as far as I can see, sure I wish that he'd not killed the burglars BUT I wasn't there, I don't know him, I don't know what he did or didn't do, I only know the outcome. And having rung 000 (our 911 here) myself and been TOLD to GO and sort out something that was happening in my neighbourhood :eek: , or had to ring them repeatedly for help only to have them rock up HOURS later and do nothing anyway, one has to wonder at what people think 911 (or 000) is gonna do anyway? I think OLS has had a valid point that they only turn up AFTER and mop up in a lot of cases. I don't want what they're "mopping up" to be me or mine OR my neighbours. I'm not patrolling my neighbourhood LOOKING for trouble but if I see something happening to my neighbours or someone in the street and it doesn't look right, and someone may die or be seriously injured or have property stolen I'm sure as hell not going to help the perpertrator by calling emergency services and waiting for them to turn up. I don't have access to a gun though, so whatever action I take I have to be prepared that I will ALSO quite possibly suffer injury.
i've found that people that don't know their neighbours can't get along with other people. your neighbours are the first people you want to know. when i was still in knickers; me grand slipped on the stairs and broke her ankle in 3 places. i ran to the neighbours who called an ambulance (we didn't have 911 back then) and they helped us; then watched over me when they took me grand away. if me gramps had a heart attack; i'd run to the neighbours for help.
THESE ARE PEOPLE YOU LIVE NEXT TO. why the hell wouldn't you want to get to know them?
yes; i have loaded guns in my nightstand. a .44 and a .38. i can hit matchsticks at 7 yards with either. when i start reading stories where the burglers or attackers allow the victims to get their guns from the safe; then load them to protect themselves; they'll go back in the safe with the others.
this thread had nothing to do with the horn case. the circumstances were altogether different. why people chose to bring horn into this conversation i just don't know. i was looking for the people who absolutely hate guns to get their reaction. every 34 minutes; someone uses a handgun to save their lives in the us. we're told that's a bad thing. well; by people who don't believe an innocent persons life is worth protecting.
i disagree. in my experience ive found that burglaries are committed by someone who has knowledge of the intended victims schedules, in order to avoid a confrontation and make their endeavour all that much easier. maybe things are different in the united states, i dont know. maybe in the US, all burglars are busting for the chance to cause grievous harm to someone. again i don't know.
i can search thousands of cases where someone was home when their house was invaded; but that's not my point.
my point was; THAT IF YOU'RE WILLING TO ENTER SOMEONES HOME; YOU MUST BE PREPARED IN THE EVENT SOMEONE IS HOME.
i've found that people that don't know their neighbours can't get along with other people. your neighbours are the first people you want to know. when i was still in knickers; me grand slipped on the stairs and broke her ankle in 3 places. i ran to the neighbours who called an ambulance (we didn't have 911 back then) and they helped us; then watched over me when they took me grand away. if me gramps had a heart attack; i'd run to the neighbours for help.
THESE ARE PEOPLE YOU LIVE NEXT TO. why the hell wouldn't you want to get to know them?
yes; i have loaded guns in my nightstand. a .44 and a .38. i can hit matchsticks at 7 yards with either. when i start reading stories where the burglers or attackers allow the victims to get their guns from the safe; then load them to protect themselves; they'll go back in the safe with the others.
this thread had nothing to do with the horn case. the circumstances were altogether different. why people chose to bring horn into this conversation i just don't know. i was looking for the people who absolutely hate guns to get their reaction. every 34 minutes; someone uses a handgun to save their lives in the us. we're told that's a bad thing. well; by people who don't believe an innocent persons life is worth protecting.
Well I've got some great neighbours and I've got some very scary neighbours indeed. I wouldn't wish harm on any of them and I'd help out any of them if they needed it and have done. BUT when the police decided that I should go talk to my neighbour about the noise, quite frankly I thought they must be completely out of their minds. There was no way I was going up there in my pyjamas, at 3am, to tell the guy and his mates, who have a history of drug and alcohol abuse, petty crime and violence that they needed to turn the music down and I told the copper that. It's not like they were unaware of the problems the whole neighbourhood had had with that neighbour. I don't dislike the guy BUT there are times to speak to your neighbours and go to your neighbours for help and there are neighbours that will take advantage of you at every turn. So I guess you have to weigh it up based on what you know. Even if I'd had a gun I'd have not gone to that guys house in those circumstances. As far as I'm concerned that's what we're paying taxes for. For the police to come and sort it out.
I don't think guns are necessarily a bad thing OLS, you know this. BUT we don't really have them here and we muddle along ok. I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it. I've managed to get through my life without a gun and I've survived bad experiences ok. For all that I hate that some people have a history of inflicting their shit on others, I'm also grateful that I've never used a gun against another person. I couldn't live with the consequences REGARDLESS of what that person did or was doing to me. But my situation is very different to yours. So I understand your sentiment and your reasoning but my situation is different.
...
Nope. sorry. You cannot pick what YOU wish to debate. Either you take on the entire issue or let it be.
In this specific case (the Pittaras case), she was under attack and has the complete right to use deadly force because she did not know whether or not she would be killed by her attacker. She made the right decision because there is a good probable outcome resulting in the end of her life.
In the Horn case... he went out looking for a fight. He had the police dispatcher on the phone as it was happening. his life was NOT in danger until he made the decision to step outside and into the situation... a situation that Horn could have clearly avoided. Pittaras was not given the choice... she did not place herself in danger.
You are trying to compare Apples and Volvos. They do not compare.
...
Finally... what kind of laywer were you?
i practiced family law.
and i did pick what i wanted to debate. just as anyone else who posts a thread. if you don't like the subject; move on.
i'm not comparing the two. there were several threads last week where peoples ideals were presented which clashed with this senareo.
as for finding where the neighbours said she should have let him rape her; sometimes you have to read between the lines; and read the entire atricle. if the neighbours were upset and say she shouldn't have shot him; WHAT OTHER BLOODY CHOICE WAS THERE? if he was there to kill her; he would have slit her throat instead of tussling about; enough for her to reach her gun. sometimes common sense is needed.
i can search thousands of cases where someone was home when their house was invaded; but that's not my point.
my point was; THAT IF YOU'RE WILLING TO ENTER SOMEONES HOME; YOU MUST BE PREPARED IN THE EVENT SOMEONE IS HOME.
well of course you could. if someone was home when their house was invaded and they manage to catch the bad guy in flagranti delicto then sure chances are they could press charges. if someone breaks into my house while im at uni, then chances are rather good that im never gonna know who did it, so then in all likelihood there will be no case to cite.
i think the mindset of someone who does not care if a home is occupied when they decide to burgle it, is different from the burglar whose only concern is to get the loot and get away scot free with no complications.
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Well I've got some great neighbours and I've got some very scary neighbours indeed. I wouldn't wish harm on any of them and I'd help out any of them if they needed it and have done. BUT when the police decided that I should go talk to my neighbour about the noise, quite frankly I thought they must be completely out of their minds. There was no way I was going up there in my pyjamas, at 3am, to tell the guy and his mates, who have a history of drug and alcohol abuse, petty crime and violence that they needed to turn the music down and I told the copper that. It's not like they were unaware of the problems the whole neighbourhood had had with that neighbour. I don't dislike the guy BUT there are times to speak to your neighbours and go to your neighbours for help and there are neighbours that will take advantage of you at every turn. So I guess you have to weigh it up based on what you know. Even if I'd had a gun I'd have not gone to that guys house in those circumstances. As far as I'm concerned that's what we're paying taxes for. For the police to come and sort it out.
I don't think guns are necessarily a bad thing OLS, you know this. BUT we don't really have them here and we muddle along ok. I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it. I've managed to get through my life without a gun and I've survived bad experiences ok. For all that I hate that some people have a history of inflicting their shit on others, I'm also grateful that I've never used a gun against another person. I couldn't live with the consequences REGARDLESS of what that person did or was doing to me. But my situation is very different to yours. So I understand your sentiment and your reasoning but my situation is different.
you said the most intelligent thing anyone here has ever said."I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it". these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds and accept that other situations exist. that other people live in different situations.
you said the most intelligent thing anyone here has ever said."I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it". these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds and accept that other situations exist. that other people live in different situations.
Well I don't know that it's righteous. I can understand why people would be outraged. I just find these things sad. They're a series of actions and reactions filtered by the people in them based on their life and experience. I just know that I can't know for certain ABSOLUTELY what I would do in any given circumstance based on my life as it's been so far. So how could I expect someone to behave as I would behave based on my life if I'm not even sure what I'd do myself? Sometimes you fight, sometimes you curl up in a ball and hope it all goes away. But that's just me. Perhaps both of these people were wrong? Maybe one of them was right and one of them was wrong. Maybe they were both right? Who knows? But I'll NEVER forget what my Gran always told me. "Walk a mile in my shoes" It's a good thing to remember I've found.
well of course you could. if someone was home when their house was invaded and they manage to catch the bad guy in flagranti delicto then sure chances are they could press charges. if someone breaks into my house while im at uni, then chances are rather good that im never gonna know who did it, so then in all likelihood there will be no case to cite.
i think the mindset of someone who does not care if a home is occupied when they decide to burgle it, is different from the burglar whose only concern is to get the loot and get away scot free with no complications.
but how would the burgler know for sure? ring the bell? hell; when i lived in the city i never answered my door cuz it was either someone selling something or jahovahs witnesses. unless of course i heard the ups truck. i'd answer for them if i was dressed. i retired 12 years ago as of 12/31. if someone invaded my home during the day; i probably was home. since most home invasions occur at night; i would've been home for sure.
i did have a home invader once. i showed him my .44 and told him he had 3 seconds to run. and he did. waiting outside was a neighbour with a bat cuz the bloke burgled him before breaking into my house.
you said the most intelligent thing anyone here has ever said."I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it". these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds and accept that other situations exist. that other people live in different situations.
i dont care how self-righteous you think i am OLS. guns kill people. people get so riled up with their emotions that oftentimes they arent thinking straight and sometimes shit happens that they later regret. not once have i questioned your situation. and damn straight people live in different situations, just like not all criminals have the same motivation. i hhave held a rifle, i have felt its weight and the power surge through me. and i have fired that rifle. and i can tell you, personally that power i felt, scared the shit out me. to think i was capable of ending soemone's life with one small movement of my finger. i dont ever want to feel that again. and sure you can say well i was just inexperienced or whatever, but the fact remains i am not in a position to be able to make the decision to take the life of another, except in self defense and undeniably, in defense of my children.
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i dont care how self-righteous you think i am OLS. guns kill people. people get so riled up with their emotions that oftentimes they arent thinking straight and sometimes shit happens that they later regret. not once have i questioned your situation. and damn straight people live in different situations, just like not all criminals have the same motivation. i hhave held a rifle, i have felt its weight and the power surge through me. and i have fired that rifle. and i can tell you, personally that power i felt, scared the shit out me. to think i was capable of ending soemone's life with one small movement of my finger. i dont ever want to feel that again. and sure you can say well i was just inexperienced or whatever, but the fact remains i am not in a position to be able to make the decision to take the life of another, except in self defense and undeniably, in defense of my children.
first; please don't put words into my mouth. i never said YOU were self rightous.
second; i've said many times that most people shouldn't have guns.
third; i know that you realize my situation and how it differs; so i never questioned YOU.
forth; i agree with you most of the time. i'm not your enemy.
fifth; if the woman in the story was in oz; she probably would've been raped and murdered.
sixth; the power you described is my best argument for having a gun. if a 1 tonne bull is charging me i HAVE to shoot it; or be killed. buffalo can break through any fence including brick walls. they can outrun a horse and jump 2 meters high from a stand-still. they're not an animal to play with and that power is needed to control them. i use a .22 with birdshot when one starts to get out of line; but an attack is an attack. i have seconds to respond and i need that power.
seventh; if the criminal has that power; i want to level the playing field. i've been a victim too many times and i won't be a victim again. i was held at gunpoint just meters from my front door. that criminal was prepared to kill me.
Doesn't it blow anybody else's mind that she had a loaded handgun on (or in) her nightstand? Who does that? I guess it worked out for her but that's fucking crazy. I can't imagine living in so much fear that I would require sleeping with a loaded gun. Some of you Americans are a rare breed for sure.
I find it funny how owning a gun or having a loaded gun nearby, while sleeping; is automatically "living in fear".
It's this bizarre stereotype designed to portray gun owners as these nervous and twitchy individuals cowhering in the corner, with their handgun aimed at the nearest doorway or window. Quick to startle, quick to jump.
When in fact, most gun owners have the weapons for self-defense, hunting and sport. I know of no gun owners who live in fear. It is an attempt to be prepared and protect oneself and family. It's a precaution......preventive medicine, if you will.
In this case, it's clear this woman had the right idea. Was she living in fear? Probably not. Unless there was something going on with this guy and this woman, that we're not aware of; causing her to load and keep the gun in fear of this particular guy. Which does not seem to be the case at this time.
Having a gun there was probably a pre-caution in self-defense and it probably saved her life.
I have no faith in a breaking and entering rapist (regardless of his mental illness. I mean aren't they all mentally ill?!?!?!) with a kife, that he may spare her life; after raping her.
It disgusts me to think that someone would actually suggest she allow herself to be raped. That's sick and demented.
We all have a right to self-defense and to protect the lives of ourselves, our families, neighbors and friends. I don't care what coountry you live in, you have that right regardless of the respective laws.
Fact is, law enforcement can only do so much. More often than not, they arrive only after the crime/murder/rape has been committed. So good luck in waiting for the police to respond and save your life.
i dont care how self-righteous you think i am OLS. guns kill people. people get so riled up with their emotions that oftentimes they arent thinking straight and sometimes shit happens that they later regret. not once have i questioned your situation. and damn straight people live in different situations, just like not all criminals have the same motivation. i hhave held a rifle, i have felt its weight and the power surge through me. and i have fired that rifle. and i can tell you, personally that power i felt, scared the shit out me. to think i was capable of ending soemone's life with one small movement of my finger. i dont ever want to feel that again. and sure you can say well i was just inexperienced or whatever, but the fact remains i am not in a position to be able to make the decision to take the life of another, except in self defense and undeniably, in defense of my children.
People kill people. Guns are just a tool.
Prior to guns, people killed people with arrows, spears, swords, knives, rocks, wooden clubs or whatever they can get their hands on.
And people defended themselves with the same tools/weapons.
Every time you get behind the wheel of a car, you are in a position to kill someone. Standing at a red light while people cross in front of you. All it takes is a gentle, but firm nudge to the gas pedal.
I find it funny how owning a gun or having a loaded gun nearby, while sleeping; is automatically "living in fear".
It's this bizarre stereotype designed to portray gun owners as these nervous and twitchy individuals cowhering in the corner, with their handgun aimed at the nearest doorway or window. Quick to startle, quick to jump.
When in fact, most gun owners have the weapons for self-defense, hunting and sport. I know of no gun owners who live in fear. It is an attempt to be prepared and protect oneself and family. It's a precaution......preventive medicine, if you will.
In this case, it's clear this woman had the right idea. Was she living in fear? Probably not. Unless there was something going on with this guy and this woman, that we're not aware of; causing her to load and keep the gun in fear of this particular guy. Which does not seem to be the case at this time.
Having a gun there was probably a pre-caution in self-defense and it probably saved her life.
I have no faith in a breaking and entering rapist (regardless of his mental illness. I mean aren't they all mentally ill?!?!?!) with a kife, that he may spare her life; after raping her.
It disgusts me to think that someone would actually suggest she allow herself to be raped. That's sick and demented.
We all have a right to self-defense and to protect the lives of ourselves, our families, neighbors and friends. I don't care what coountry you live in, you have that right regardless of the respective laws.
Fact is, law enforcement can only do so much. More often than not, they arrive only after the crime/murder/rape has been committed. So good luck in waiting for the police to respond and save your life.
thank you. when i was held at gunpoint; the police NEVER arrived. they called 3 hours later and said i was "too far out" in the mountians and they'd take a phone report.
you're right about legal gun owners. they practice and respect the power they hold in their hands. the criminals do not. we know the destructive power and thus we're much more careful than anyone else. are there a few nutters out there; sure; but there's more criminals that are nutters and those are the dangerous ones. we have a right to protect ourselves. we don't have a right to expect the police to be there when the crime is committed nor do we have a right to expect the police to protect us. thus we have crime.
first; please don't put words into my mouth. i never said YOU were self rightous.
second; i've said many times that most people shouldn't have guns.
third; i know that you realize my situation and how it differs; so i never questioned YOU.
forth; i agree with you most of the time. i'm not your enemy.
fifth; if the woman in the story was in oz; she probably would've been raped and murdered.
sixth; the power you described is my best argument for having a gun. if a 1 tonne bull is charging me i HAVE to shoot it; or be killed. buffalo can break through any fence including brick walls. they can outrun a horse and jump 2 meters high from a stand-still. they're not an animal to play with and that power is needed to control them. i use a .22 with birdshot when one starts to get out of line; but an attack is an attack. i have seconds to respond and i need that power.
seventh; if the criminal has that power; i want to level the playing field. i've been a victim too many times and i won't be a victim again. i was held at gunpoint just meters from my front door. that criminal was prepared to kill me.
these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds .
when you make such a broad statement as the one above, i feel included.
as for your 6th point... about that power being your best argument. well in realtion to me, its my best argument as well. and you know i ain't talking about facing a rampaging bull or buffalo. i'm talking about humans.
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Prior to guns, people killed people with arrows, spears, swords, knives, rocks, wooden clubs or whatever they can get their hands on.
And people defended themselves with the same tools/weapons.
Every time you get behind the wheel of a car, you are in a position to kill someone. Standing at a red light while people cross in front of you. All it takes is a gentle, but firm nudge to the gas pedal.
right again. criminals exist. we happen to have a population of about 340 million so our stats are high. when countries without guns post their murder rates; they never post the number of unsolved crimes. the number of criminals to innocent victims is the same all over. it's simple human nature. law of averages; or whatever you want to call it.
i don't live in fear because i know i'm prepared. those that go blindly through their lives are the ones that should live in fear. they are usually the victims. gun owners know to be aware of their surroundings. those walking out of a store talking on a cell phone are more likely to be a victim.
these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds .
when you make such a broad statement as the one above, i feel included.
as for your 6th point... about that power being your best argument. well in realtion to me, its my best argument as well. and you know i ain't talking about facing a rampaging bull or buffalo. i'm talking about humans.
if you felt included; then you feel you are self rightous. otherwise you'd know i was talking about other people.
(edit: there's a difference between rightous and self rightous. you chose to label yourself.)
Prior to guns, people killed people with arrows, spears, swords, knives, rocks, wooden clubs or whatever they can get their hands on.
And people defended themselves with the same tools/weapons.
Every time you get behind the wheel of a car, you are in a position to kill someone. Standing at a red light while people cross in front of you. All it takes is a gentle, but firm nudge to the gas pedal.
i guess youre right cause if i'd been in possession of a gun, i would have pulled the trigger and i'd have been dead by now.
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thank you. when i was held at gunpoint; the police NEVER arrived. they called 3 hours later and said i was "too far out" in the mountians and they'd take a phone report.
Sorry to hear it happened to you. That sucks. I can't believe they wouldn't even make the drive out there. Well, scratch that. On second thought, I do believe it. Especially when it comes to those mountain and country areas. Most people who live out in the deep country, mountains or desert have at least one gun. I think most have several guns.
You have to. If you run into a bear or some other big wild animal, they won't care much about any moral discussion on taking a life. If they have it in their mind to go for you, they go for you.
Sorry to hear it happened to you. That sucks. I can't believe they wouldn't even make the drive out there. Well, scratch that. On second thought, I do believe it. Especially when it comes to those mountain and country areas. Most people who live out in the deep country, mountains or desert have at least one gun. I think most have several guns.
You have to. If you run into a bear or some other big wild animal, they won't care much about any moral discussion on taking a life. If they have it in their mind to go for you, they go for you.
well; in other areas like nebraska or kansas where farms are several miles apart and hours from the police; have the same problem. a criminal will drive several hours because they know if they kill someone in the boonies; it may be days before they're discovered. thus the perfect crime.
my biggest problem is mountain lions. humanization has taken away their habitat so they're hungry and getting brave. look at the attacks in southern california. they were in a very populated area.
i do have several guns. one day some bloke saw the buffalo and ran home to get his young kid. 4 or 5 i'd guess. he opened my gate and positioned his kid so the buffalo were in the background. i grabbed a 7 mm because i knew the bull would charge which he did. i was about to pull the trigger when he stopped and the bloke and his kid took off. i almost had to kill a $220,000 bull to save the life of an idiot. he entered my property without permission so if an animal killed them; it would be their own fault. but i do cherish human life so i was prepared.
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you made one point here. someone breaking into someones house is prepared to do bodily harm. when you enter someone elses home; there's a good chance someone is home. and chances are they'd have to deal with them. if you look at stats; the homeowner is usually killed. why leave witnesses?
Well I'm not so sure that burglars are even thinking that far ahead. Some sure, but I'll bet on more than a few occassions they've broken in, been surprised to find someone home and reacted violently out of fear of being caught. BUT that's not gonna do much if you're the poor sod that had the temerity to be in your own home on the wrong night. Thing is as far as I can see in that circumstance everyone is working on heightened response. So burglar freaks out you're home, home owner freaks out coz there's someone in the house. Recipe for disaster really.
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i disagree. in my experience ive found that burglaries are committed by someone who has knowledge of the intended victims schedules, in order to avoid a confrontation and make their endeavour all that much easier. maybe things are different in the united states, i dont know. maybe in the US, all burglars are busting for the chance to cause grievous harm to someone. again i don't know.
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I agree, most burglaries I've heard of here happen when the victims are away on vacation, out to work etc.
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i've found that people that don't know their neighbours can't get along with other people. your neighbours are the first people you want to know. when i was still in knickers; me grand slipped on the stairs and broke her ankle in 3 places. i ran to the neighbours who called an ambulance (we didn't have 911 back then) and they helped us; then watched over me when they took me grand away. if me gramps had a heart attack; i'd run to the neighbours for help.
THESE ARE PEOPLE YOU LIVE NEXT TO. why the hell wouldn't you want to get to know them?
yes; i have loaded guns in my nightstand. a .44 and a .38. i can hit matchsticks at 7 yards with either. when i start reading stories where the burglers or attackers allow the victims to get their guns from the safe; then load them to protect themselves; they'll go back in the safe with the others.
this thread had nothing to do with the horn case. the circumstances were altogether different. why people chose to bring horn into this conversation i just don't know. i was looking for the people who absolutely hate guns to get their reaction. every 34 minutes; someone uses a handgun to save their lives in the us. we're told that's a bad thing. well; by people who don't believe an innocent persons life is worth protecting.
i can search thousands of cases where someone was home when their house was invaded; but that's not my point.
my point was; THAT IF YOU'RE WILLING TO ENTER SOMEONES HOME; YOU MUST BE PREPARED IN THE EVENT SOMEONE IS HOME.
Well I've got some great neighbours and I've got some very scary neighbours indeed. I wouldn't wish harm on any of them and I'd help out any of them if they needed it and have done. BUT when the police decided that I should go talk to my neighbour about the noise, quite frankly I thought they must be completely out of their minds. There was no way I was going up there in my pyjamas, at 3am, to tell the guy and his mates, who have a history of drug and alcohol abuse, petty crime and violence that they needed to turn the music down and I told the copper that. It's not like they were unaware of the problems the whole neighbourhood had had with that neighbour. I don't dislike the guy BUT there are times to speak to your neighbours and go to your neighbours for help and there are neighbours that will take advantage of you at every turn. So I guess you have to weigh it up based on what you know. Even if I'd had a gun I'd have not gone to that guys house in those circumstances. As far as I'm concerned that's what we're paying taxes for. For the police to come and sort it out.
I don't think guns are necessarily a bad thing OLS, you know this. BUT we don't really have them here and we muddle along ok. I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it. I've managed to get through my life without a gun and I've survived bad experiences ok. For all that I hate that some people have a history of inflicting their shit on others, I'm also grateful that I've never used a gun against another person. I couldn't live with the consequences REGARDLESS of what that person did or was doing to me. But my situation is very different to yours. So I understand your sentiment and your reasoning but my situation is different.
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i practiced family law.
and i did pick what i wanted to debate. just as anyone else who posts a thread. if you don't like the subject; move on.
i'm not comparing the two. there were several threads last week where peoples ideals were presented which clashed with this senareo.
as for finding where the neighbours said she should have let him rape her; sometimes you have to read between the lines; and read the entire atricle. if the neighbours were upset and say she shouldn't have shot him; WHAT OTHER BLOODY CHOICE WAS THERE? if he was there to kill her; he would have slit her throat instead of tussling about; enough for her to reach her gun. sometimes common sense is needed.
well of course you could. if someone was home when their house was invaded and they manage to catch the bad guy in flagranti delicto then sure chances are they could press charges. if someone breaks into my house while im at uni, then chances are rather good that im never gonna know who did it, so then in all likelihood there will be no case to cite.
i think the mindset of someone who does not care if a home is occupied when they decide to burgle it, is different from the burglar whose only concern is to get the loot and get away scot free with no complications.
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you said the most intelligent thing anyone here has ever said."I can't speak for your situation because I'm not in it". these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds and accept that other situations exist. that other people live in different situations.
Well I don't know that it's righteous. I can understand why people would be outraged. I just find these things sad. They're a series of actions and reactions filtered by the people in them based on their life and experience. I just know that I can't know for certain ABSOLUTELY what I would do in any given circumstance based on my life as it's been so far. So how could I expect someone to behave as I would behave based on my life if I'm not even sure what I'd do myself? Sometimes you fight, sometimes you curl up in a ball and hope it all goes away. But that's just me. Perhaps both of these people were wrong? Maybe one of them was right and one of them was wrong. Maybe they were both right? Who knows? But I'll NEVER forget what my Gran always told me. "Walk a mile in my shoes" It's a good thing to remember I've found.
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that's what went through my head too. that's like saying i threw away my toothbrush b/c my neighbour got dentures.
but how would the burgler know for sure? ring the bell? hell; when i lived in the city i never answered my door cuz it was either someone selling something or jahovahs witnesses. unless of course i heard the ups truck. i'd answer for them if i was dressed. i retired 12 years ago as of 12/31. if someone invaded my home during the day; i probably was home. since most home invasions occur at night; i would've been home for sure.
i did have a home invader once. i showed him my .44 and told him he had 3 seconds to run. and he did. waiting outside was a neighbour with a bat cuz the bloke burgled him before breaking into my house.
i dont care how self-righteous you think i am OLS. guns kill people. people get so riled up with their emotions that oftentimes they arent thinking straight and sometimes shit happens that they later regret. not once have i questioned your situation. and damn straight people live in different situations, just like not all criminals have the same motivation. i hhave held a rifle, i have felt its weight and the power surge through me. and i have fired that rifle. and i can tell you, personally that power i felt, scared the shit out me. to think i was capable of ending soemone's life with one small movement of my finger. i dont ever want to feel that again. and sure you can say well i was just inexperienced or whatever, but the fact remains i am not in a position to be able to make the decision to take the life of another, except in self defense and undeniably, in defense of my children.
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first; please don't put words into my mouth. i never said YOU were self rightous.
second; i've said many times that most people shouldn't have guns.
third; i know that you realize my situation and how it differs; so i never questioned YOU.
forth; i agree with you most of the time. i'm not your enemy.
fifth; if the woman in the story was in oz; she probably would've been raped and murdered.
sixth; the power you described is my best argument for having a gun. if a 1 tonne bull is charging me i HAVE to shoot it; or be killed. buffalo can break through any fence including brick walls. they can outrun a horse and jump 2 meters high from a stand-still. they're not an animal to play with and that power is needed to control them. i use a .22 with birdshot when one starts to get out of line; but an attack is an attack. i have seconds to respond and i need that power.
seventh; if the criminal has that power; i want to level the playing field. i've been a victim too many times and i won't be a victim again. i was held at gunpoint just meters from my front door. that criminal was prepared to kill me.
I find it funny how owning a gun or having a loaded gun nearby, while sleeping; is automatically "living in fear".
It's this bizarre stereotype designed to portray gun owners as these nervous and twitchy individuals cowhering in the corner, with their handgun aimed at the nearest doorway or window. Quick to startle, quick to jump.
When in fact, most gun owners have the weapons for self-defense, hunting and sport. I know of no gun owners who live in fear. It is an attempt to be prepared and protect oneself and family. It's a precaution......preventive medicine, if you will.
In this case, it's clear this woman had the right idea. Was she living in fear? Probably not. Unless there was something going on with this guy and this woman, that we're not aware of; causing her to load and keep the gun in fear of this particular guy. Which does not seem to be the case at this time.
Having a gun there was probably a pre-caution in self-defense and it probably saved her life.
I have no faith in a breaking and entering rapist (regardless of his mental illness. I mean aren't they all mentally ill?!?!?!) with a kife, that he may spare her life; after raping her.
It disgusts me to think that someone would actually suggest she allow herself to be raped. That's sick and demented.
We all have a right to self-defense and to protect the lives of ourselves, our families, neighbors and friends. I don't care what coountry you live in, you have that right regardless of the respective laws.
Fact is, law enforcement can only do so much. More often than not, they arrive only after the crime/murder/rape has been committed. So good luck in waiting for the police to respond and save your life.
so then what do you suppose HOME INVASION means?
People kill people. Guns are just a tool.
Prior to guns, people killed people with arrows, spears, swords, knives, rocks, wooden clubs or whatever they can get their hands on.
And people defended themselves with the same tools/weapons.
Every time you get behind the wheel of a car, you are in a position to kill someone. Standing at a red light while people cross in front of you. All it takes is a gentle, but firm nudge to the gas pedal.
thank you. when i was held at gunpoint; the police NEVER arrived. they called 3 hours later and said i was "too far out" in the mountians and they'd take a phone report.
you're right about legal gun owners. they practice and respect the power they hold in their hands. the criminals do not. we know the destructive power and thus we're much more careful than anyone else. are there a few nutters out there; sure; but there's more criminals that are nutters and those are the dangerous ones. we have a right to protect ourselves. we don't have a right to expect the police to be there when the crime is committed nor do we have a right to expect the police to protect us. thus we have crime.
these rightous people here can't see past their little worlds .
when you make such a broad statement as the one above, i feel included.
as for your 6th point... about that power being your best argument. well in realtion to me, its my best argument as well. and you know i ain't talking about facing a rampaging bull or buffalo. i'm talking about humans.
take a good look
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right again. criminals exist. we happen to have a population of about 340 million so our stats are high. when countries without guns post their murder rates; they never post the number of unsolved crimes. the number of criminals to innocent victims is the same all over. it's simple human nature. law of averages; or whatever you want to call it.
i don't live in fear because i know i'm prepared. those that go blindly through their lives are the ones that should live in fear. they are usually the victims. gun owners know to be aware of their surroundings. those walking out of a store talking on a cell phone are more likely to be a victim.
if you felt included; then you feel you are self rightous. otherwise you'd know i was talking about other people.
(edit: there's a difference between rightous and self rightous. you chose to label yourself.)
i guess youre right cause if i'd been in possession of a gun, i would have pulled the trigger and i'd have been dead by now.
take a good look
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you know OLS sometimes tis difficult to know who you're aiming your posts at. it could have been better worded and directed.
take a good look
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Sorry to hear it happened to you. That sucks. I can't believe they wouldn't even make the drive out there. Well, scratch that. On second thought, I do believe it. Especially when it comes to those mountain and country areas. Most people who live out in the deep country, mountains or desert have at least one gun. I think most have several guns.
You have to. If you run into a bear or some other big wild animal, they won't care much about any moral discussion on taking a life. If they have it in their mind to go for you, they go for you.
That's why someone like you shouldn't have a gun. Guns are not for everyone. Some people simply are not stable enough to own a gun.
Unfortunately unstable criminals acquire guns and weapons all the time, through illegal channels.
well; in other areas like nebraska or kansas where farms are several miles apart and hours from the police; have the same problem. a criminal will drive several hours because they know if they kill someone in the boonies; it may be days before they're discovered. thus the perfect crime.
my biggest problem is mountain lions. humanization has taken away their habitat so they're hungry and getting brave. look at the attacks in southern california. they were in a very populated area.
i do have several guns. one day some bloke saw the buffalo and ran home to get his young kid. 4 or 5 i'd guess. he opened my gate and positioned his kid so the buffalo were in the background. i grabbed a 7 mm because i knew the bull would charge which he did. i was about to pull the trigger when he stopped and the bloke and his kid took off. i almost had to kill a $220,000 bull to save the life of an idiot. he entered my property without permission so if an animal killed them; it would be their own fault. but i do cherish human life so i was prepared.
sorry cate. i wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. just a general statement. i figured they'd know who they were.