I am a very liberal person, and i think unions were necessary to protect workers rights and ensure safe work places for coalminers a long time ago, but it bugs me when a union tries to strong-arm in order to get highly above-market wages.
Though they are not as extreme, a union can be compared to a street gang that uses threats and their large number of members in order to have things go their way.
i see your point. the unions hurt the employers at first; but the employers got smart. in 1972 i had 101 employees not including myself. i paid fair wages and paid healthcare. gave 1 hour lunches and 2 15 minute breaks. the union came in and tried the strongarm tactics so i laid off 80 people; made the rest pay their own insurance; gave 1/2 hour lunch and 2- 10 minute breaks (law) and spread the workload out among the 20 remaining people. when i needed more help i used temps or farmed work out. other times i used family. there's always a way.
My grocery store employs baggers, and all of its employees are unionized. Because they're well-paid, they're happy, friendly; they go out of their way to help. Their supervisors and managers treat them with respect and decency. There's a career path, and over the past 7 years, I have seen people move from being baggers to cashiers to working the office. And I know they send people on to the central office.
I pay a bit more than the local Wal-Mart or other non-union shops, but it's worth it to me.
And my local grocery store is expanding -- opening a brand new location a mile or so away from the Wal-Mart.
So are they stupid? Doomed? Or just decent human beings living by the golden rule?
history says they're doomed. you may pay a little more now but what about next year when everything else goes up and you need to "tighten your belt" a little more?
Having a minimum wage really is a band aid on a larger problem, which is the very existance of dehumanizing labor. There should not be rendering plants, or assembly lines, or fast food restaurants, and any other job that truly makes a person nothing but an appendage of industry. Paying these people to do services that no person would rationally accept if they had a choice, dehumanizing them in this manner, and then paying them subsistance wages (if that) to compensate them is nothing less than total Evil. I don't use the word Evil lightly (note the capitalization).
Now, I admit, I commit these acts of Evil on a daily basis. Several of them. That's because I love myself more that I hate being Evil. I commit less Evil than the average American, but that's no excuse. We all need to force ourselves to stop being Evil fucking a$$holes. We need to create communities based on the fair treatment of each individual within it. We need to take a little bit of time each day to perform whatever less-than-desirable duties are necessary and clean up our own shit, rather than having a bunch of peons work 60 hours a week to do them for us, and then complain when they ask for an extra dollar per hour.
Having a minimum wage really is a band aid on a larger problem, which is the very existance of dehumanizing labor. There should not be rendering plants, or assembly lines, or fast food restaurants, and any other job that truly makes a person nothing but an appendage of industry. Paying these people to do services that no person would rationally accept if they had a choice, dehumanizing them in this manner, and then paying them subsistance wages (if that) to compensate them is nothing less than total Evil. I don't use the word Evil lightly (note the capitalization).
Now, I admit, I commit these acts of Evil on a daily basis. Several of them. That's because I love myself more that I hate being Evil. I commit less Evil than the average American, but that's no excuse. We all need to force ourselves to stop being Evil fucking a$$holes. We need to create communities based on the fair treatment of each individual within it. We need to take a little bit of time each day to perform whatever less-than-desirable duties are necessary and clean up our own shit, rather than having a bunch of peons work 60 hours a week to do them for us, and then complain when they ask for an extra dollar per hour.
but if we all perform the undesirable tasks, what will the unskilled laborer do for work?
will you take a much lower wage so that people don't need to flip burgers?
perhaps some of the people who flip burgers or work in rendering plants are ok with working as they do.
I am all for fair treatment, but I don't see how someone working at mcdonalds is unfair?
but if we all perform the undesirable tasks, what will the unskilled laborer do for work?
will you take a much lower wage so that people don't need to flip burgers?
perhaps some of the people who flip burgers or work in rendering plants are ok with working as they do.
I am all for fair treatment, but I don't see how someone working at mcdonalds is unfair?
a total economic collapse wouldn't effect me one bit. i live on a ranch and raise my own food; generate my own electricity; and live just fine without any outside interference. my companies would be worthless but with economic collapse; so would money. if he's trying to say people should be self sufficient; i'm all for that. the people grew fat and got lazy; and that's where it all began. some of us pot smoking hippies knew how to feed off the masses and cover our asses at the same time.
history says they're doomed. you may pay a little more now but what about next year when everything else goes up and you need to "tighten your belt" a little more?
I'll keep paying a little more. I come from a family of coal miners who sacrificed a great deal to unionize mines to make them safe and to squeeze a fair wage out of greedy mine owners. And my parents were in unions early in their careers so they earned good wages and had health insurance and paid vacations. And based on my grandfather's sacrifices and my parents' financial security, I got a good education and make enough money to afford to shop in unionized workplaces.
And unlike the mass of employers in this country, I think it's worth it to spend a little more than I have to in order to make life better for others.
People like you are always saying -- if we allow unions and pay our workers more, then employers will either fire people or pass it along to the consumer. But there are alternatives, aren't there? What about cutting back on executive salaries? American executives make about 450 times what the average employee working in their business make. Is that really necessary to encourage entrepreneurs to take risks? What if they only made, say, 200 times what the average employee made?
And the most amazing thing is that our employers convince American employees that all this is a good idea and that it's inevitable.
"Things will just get better and better even though it
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
I'll keep paying a little more. I come from a family of coal miners who sacrificed a great deal to unionize mines to make them safe and to squeeze a fair wage out of greedy mine owners. And my parents were in unions early in their careers so they earned good wages and had health insurance and paid vacations. And based on my grandfather's sacrifices and my parents' financial security, I got a good education and make enough money to afford to shop in unionized workplaces.
And unlike the mass of employers in this country, I think it's worth it to spend a little more than I have to in order to make life better for others.
People like you are always saying -- if we allow unions and pay our workers more, then employers will either fire people or pass it along to the consumer. But there are alternatives, aren't there? What about cutting back on executive salaries? American executives make about 450 times what the average employee working in their business make. Is that really necessary to encourage entrepreneurs to take risks? What if they only made, say, 200 times what the average employee made?
And the most amazing thing is that our employers convince American employees that all this is a good idea and that it's inevitable.
i have no problem making 58.823 times more than i pay my employees. everyone had the same choices. when i was that age i drove a 10 yr old car. they want a new car. i worked 60 hour weeks; they want 40 hour weeks. i had 1 tv; they have 1 in every room. i paid my dues already. if i take a pay cut; will you? will everyone else?
My grocery store employs baggers, and all of its employees are unionized. Because they're well-paid, they're happy, friendly; they go out of their way to help. Their supervisors and managers treat them with respect and decency. There's a career path, and over the past 7 years, I have seen people move from being baggers to cashiers to working the office. And I know they send people on to the central office.
I pay a bit more than the local Wal-Mart or other non-union shops, but it's worth it to me.
And my local grocery store is expanding -- opening a brand new location a mile or so away from the Wal-Mart.
So are they stupid? Doomed? Or just decent human beings living by the golden rule?
the grocery store where my daughter checks is the same way. they are unionized, so they get paid medical, dental, vision and prescription. they treat their employees well and they pay above minimum wage even for the baggers. so yes it can be done to run a very sucessful business without treating the employees like dirt.
history says they're doomed. you may pay a little more now but what about next year when everything else goes up and you need to "tighten your belt" a little more?
the store that i'm talking about is just like the store that Hope&Anger was refering to. they are a local chain and they've been continually expanding over the last 15 years(that i'm aware of it could be much longer than that) all the while giving their employees a decent wage and their customers the best of service.
next year when everything else goes up the prices will go up in every grocery store, not just the unionized ones.
i have no problem making 58.823 times more than i pay my employees. everyone had the same choices. when i was that age i drove a 10 yr old car. they want a new car. i worked 60 hour weeks; they want 40 hour weeks. i had 1 tv; they have 1 in every room. i paid my dues already. if i take a pay cut; will you? will everyone else?
never could understand those that try to defend being greedy
the grocery store where my daughter checks is the same way. they are unionized, so they get paid medical, dental, vision and prescription. they treat their employees well and they pay above minimum wage even for the baggers. so yes it can be done to run a very sucessful business without treating the employees like dirt.
the store that i'm talking about is just like the store that Hope&Anger was refering to. they are a local chain and they've been continually expanding over the last 15 years(that i'm aware of it could be much longer than that) all the while giving their employees a decent wage and their customers the best of service.
next year when everything else goes up the prices will go up in every grocery store, not just the unionized ones.
not always true.
walmart has been able to lower prices on several items due to increased buying power. i offer quantity discounts and if you're a healthy eater; chances are you eat one or more of my products. as each year goes by; i find ways to increase profits and ways to pass savings on to my customers. mostly in larger sales. i'm currently working with schwans to carry my products. this will allow me to almost double my opperation and discount to those large customers who will discount to the consumer. this increases my sales and greatly increases my profits.
not always true.
walmart has been able to lower prices on several items due to increased buying power. i offer quantity discounts and if you're a healthy eater; chances are you eat one or more of my products. as each year goes by; i find ways to increase profits and ways to pass savings on to my customers. mostly in larger sales. i'm currently working with schwans to carry my products. this will allow me to almost double my opperation and discount to those large customers who will discount to the consumer. this increases my sales and greatly increases my profits.
all the while still leaving out the employee while providing the world with your miracle-cure-medical-grade buffalo meat....ha
never could understand those that try to defend being greedy
let's look at this. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 tv's; i only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 vcrs or dvds; only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't force anyone to buy food they didn't raise; only provided food for those who didn't want to raise their own food. i didn't force anyone to buy machine products; i only provided machine products for those who wanted them. every one of you had the choice to own only one tv and invest the other monies. the choice was yours. don't piss and moan over your own choices. i was born dirt poor. we didn't own a tv until 1968.
it never ceases to amaze me how people who go through life making bad choices call successful people greedy.
for those new to the subject; when an animal is fed grain; it produces white fat which is high in bad cholesterol. grass fed animals produce yellow fat high in good cholesterol which lowers bad cholesterol.
my best advice is ASK YOUR DOCTORS.
let's look at this. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 tv's; i only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 vcrs or dvds; only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't force anyone to buy food they didn't raise; only provided food for those who didn't want to raise their own food. i didn't force anyone to buy machine products; i only provided machine products for those who wanted them. every one of you had the choice to own only one tv and invest the other monies. the choice was yours. don't piss and moan over your own choices. i was born dirt poor. we didn't own a tv until 1968.
it never ceases to amaze me how people who go through life making bad choices call successful people greedy.
I'm not materialistic, i own one and half(it doesn't work half the time) tvs. the fact that I never allowed greed to be the guiding force in my financial choices in no way made them "bad choices." I don't try to live beyond my means. I may not have money but what i do have I'll gladly share with others.
you're the one that said that you make 58.823 times more than your employees. that is greed plain and simple....why bother trying to sugar coat it? how many of your employees could get medical insurance coverage if you paid for it with some of those profits instead of pocketing it for yourself?
for those new to the subject; when an animal is fed grain; it produces white fat which is high in bad cholesterol. grass fed animals produce yellow fat high in good cholesterol which lowers bad cholesterol.
my best advice is ASK YOUR DOCTORS.
1....2....3....BULLSHIT!
once again, when you're making shit up you might want to inform google.
I'm not materialistic, i own one and half(it doesn't work half the time) tvs. the fact that I never allowed greed to be the guiding force in my financial choices in no way made them "bad choices." I don't try to live beyond my means. I may not have money but what i do have I'll gladly share with others.
you're the one that said that you make 58.823 times more than your employees. that is greed plain and simple....why bother trying to sugar coat it? how many of your employees could get medical insurance coverage if you paid for it with some of those profits instead of pocketing it for yourself?
those profits went into medical research to save your sorry ass. not like someone like bill gates who uses the money for mansions and fancy cars. those profits help abused and homeless children and the handicapped who cannot help themselves.those profits go to buy land forever dedicated to wildlife and wildlife only. i take nothing for myself. i live a simple life dedicated to the enviornment and i fund it with money from the people destroying it.
those profits went into medical research to save your sorry ass. not like someone like bill gates who uses the money for mansions and fancy cars. those profits help abused and homeless children and the handicapped who cannot help themselves.those profits go to buy land forever dedicated to wildlife and wildlife only. i take nothing for myself. i live a simple life dedicated to the enviornment and i fund it with money from the people destroying it.
those profits went into medical research to save your sorry ass. not like someone like bill gates who uses the money for mansions and fancy cars. those profits help abused and homeless children and the handicapped who cannot help themselves.those profits go to buy land forever dedicated to wildlife and wildlife only. i take nothing for myself. i live a simple life dedicated to the enviornment and i fund it with money from the people destroying it.
Um, Bill Gates has given something like 23 billion to charity via his foundation. He is, officially, the most giving philanthropist in history. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
does the man have more than 2 bedrooms? does the man have more than 1 tv? does the man have electricity? (grid) does the man have a car? (and not a ranch truck) has the man seen a movie in the last 10 years?
Um, Bill Gates has given something like 23 billion to charity via his foundation. He is, officially, the most giving philanthropist in history. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
so because bill gates funnels funds to himself from his entities to then donate in his own name for personal glory; it becomes more valuable than if the seperate entities donated it directly?
please explain.
so because bill gates funnels funds to himself from his entities to then donate in his own name for personal glory; it becomes more valuable than if the seperate entities donated it directly?
please explain.
Wow. Guy, he 'funnels' money to himself via HIS comapny. Money he has earned. It is not for his personal glory--he legitimately wants to help. Hell, what if it was for his 'glory'? The bottom line is millions have benefited from this money.
does the man have more than 2 bedrooms? does the man have more than 1 tv? does the man have electricity? (grid) does the man have a car? (and not a ranch truck) has the man seen a movie in the last 10 years?
I'm really trying to find your point in all thiese rhetorical questions.
so because bill gates funnels funds to himself from his entities to then donate in his own name for personal glory; it becomes more valuable than if the seperate entities donated it directly?
please explain.
you really need an explaination? ok here goes.
you know what I cant. except that you need to realize how much good that money does. read the websites I sent. you will learn alot.
I'm really trying to find your point in all thiese rhetorical questions.
Yeah, I'm with this guy. onelongsong, I can't follow any of your thinking/rationales. Either you are full of shit, or I just smoked the best weed ever. Maybe a little of both.
those profits went into medical research to save your sorry ass. not like someone like bill gates who uses the money for mansions and fancy cars. those profits help abused and homeless children and the handicapped who cannot help themselves.those profits go to buy land forever dedicated to wildlife and wildlife only. i take nothing for myself. i live a simple life dedicated to the enviornment and i fund it with money from the people destroying it.
getting defensive about not giving your employees decent wages or benefits by saying that all that money instead goes to help abused and homeless children...oh please I believe that as much as i believe that eating buffalo meat has medical benefits. (and it most certainly isn't saving my vegetarian ass) lets see a link to that study. that you already said you took a government grant for. you know, the one where you claim that eating grass-fed buffalos lowers bad cholesterol
Comments
i see your point. the unions hurt the employers at first; but the employers got smart. in 1972 i had 101 employees not including myself. i paid fair wages and paid healthcare. gave 1 hour lunches and 2 15 minute breaks. the union came in and tried the strongarm tactics so i laid off 80 people; made the rest pay their own insurance; gave 1/2 hour lunch and 2- 10 minute breaks (law) and spread the workload out among the 20 remaining people. when i needed more help i used temps or farmed work out. other times i used family. there's always a way.
history says they're doomed. you may pay a little more now but what about next year when everything else goes up and you need to "tighten your belt" a little more?
Now, I admit, I commit these acts of Evil on a daily basis. Several of them. That's because I love myself more that I hate being Evil. I commit less Evil than the average American, but that's no excuse. We all need to force ourselves to stop being Evil fucking a$$holes. We need to create communities based on the fair treatment of each individual within it. We need to take a little bit of time each day to perform whatever less-than-desirable duties are necessary and clean up our own shit, rather than having a bunch of peons work 60 hours a week to do them for us, and then complain when they ask for an extra dollar per hour.
but if we all perform the undesirable tasks, what will the unskilled laborer do for work?
will you take a much lower wage so that people don't need to flip burgers?
perhaps some of the people who flip burgers or work in rendering plants are ok with working as they do.
I am all for fair treatment, but I don't see how someone working at mcdonalds is unfair?
a total economic collapse wouldn't effect me one bit. i live on a ranch and raise my own food; generate my own electricity; and live just fine without any outside interference. my companies would be worthless but with economic collapse; so would money. if he's trying to say people should be self sufficient; i'm all for that. the people grew fat and got lazy; and that's where it all began. some of us pot smoking hippies knew how to feed off the masses and cover our asses at the same time.
And unlike the mass of employers in this country, I think it's worth it to spend a little more than I have to in order to make life better for others.
People like you are always saying -- if we allow unions and pay our workers more, then employers will either fire people or pass it along to the consumer. But there are alternatives, aren't there? What about cutting back on executive salaries? American executives make about 450 times what the average employee working in their business make. Is that really necessary to encourage entrepreneurs to take risks? What if they only made, say, 200 times what the average employee made?
And the most amazing thing is that our employers convince American employees that all this is a good idea and that it's inevitable.
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox
i have no problem making 58.823 times more than i pay my employees. everyone had the same choices. when i was that age i drove a 10 yr old car. they want a new car. i worked 60 hour weeks; they want 40 hour weeks. i had 1 tv; they have 1 in every room. i paid my dues already. if i take a pay cut; will you? will everyone else?
the grocery store where my daughter checks is the same way. they are unionized, so they get paid medical, dental, vision and prescription. they treat their employees well and they pay above minimum wage even for the baggers. so yes it can be done to run a very sucessful business without treating the employees like dirt.
the store that i'm talking about is just like the store that Hope&Anger was refering to. they are a local chain and they've been continually expanding over the last 15 years(that i'm aware of it could be much longer than that) all the while giving their employees a decent wage and their customers the best of service.
next year when everything else goes up the prices will go up in every grocery store, not just the unionized ones.
angels share laughter
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never could understand those that try to defend being greedy
angels share laughter
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not always true.
walmart has been able to lower prices on several items due to increased buying power. i offer quantity discounts and if you're a healthy eater; chances are you eat one or more of my products. as each year goes by; i find ways to increase profits and ways to pass savings on to my customers. mostly in larger sales. i'm currently working with schwans to carry my products. this will allow me to almost double my opperation and discount to those large customers who will discount to the consumer. this increases my sales and greatly increases my profits.
i'm not defending shit. i figure i'm just smarter.
all the while still leaving out the employee while providing the world with your miracle-cure-medical-grade buffalo meat....ha
angels share laughter
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having more money does not make you smart....just greedy (this is not true of everyone with money)
angels share laughter
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let's look at this. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 tv's; i only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't make anyone buy 3 or 4 vcrs or dvds; only gave them a way to buy them reasonably. i didn't force anyone to buy food they didn't raise; only provided food for those who didn't want to raise their own food. i didn't force anyone to buy machine products; i only provided machine products for those who wanted them. every one of you had the choice to own only one tv and invest the other monies. the choice was yours. don't piss and moan over your own choices. i was born dirt poor. we didn't own a tv until 1968.
it never ceases to amaze me how people who go through life making bad choices call successful people greedy.
thanks for the plug. look for RED THUNDER brand buffalo meat now available.
and thanks to the government for the research grant.
my best advice is ASK YOUR DOCTORS.
I'm not materialistic, i own one and half(it doesn't work half the time) tvs. the fact that I never allowed greed to be the guiding force in my financial choices in no way made them "bad choices." I don't try to live beyond my means. I may not have money but what i do have I'll gladly share with others.
you're the one that said that you make 58.823 times more than your employees. that is greed plain and simple....why bother trying to sugar coat it? how many of your employees could get medical insurance coverage if you paid for it with some of those profits instead of pocketing it for yourself?
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
1....2....3....BULLSHIT!
once again, when you're making shit up you might want to inform google.
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
those profits went into medical research to save your sorry ass. not like someone like bill gates who uses the money for mansions and fancy cars. those profits help abused and homeless children and the handicapped who cannot help themselves.those profits go to buy land forever dedicated to wildlife and wildlife only. i take nothing for myself. i live a simple life dedicated to the enviornment and i fund it with money from the people destroying it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_&_Melinda_Gates_Foundation
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
Um, Bill Gates has given something like 23 billion to charity via his foundation. He is, officially, the most giving philanthropist in history. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
does the man have more than 2 bedrooms? does the man have more than 1 tv? does the man have electricity? (grid) does the man have a car? (and not a ranch truck) has the man seen a movie in the last 10 years?
so because bill gates funnels funds to himself from his entities to then donate in his own name for personal glory; it becomes more valuable than if the seperate entities donated it directly?
please explain.
Wow. Guy, he 'funnels' money to himself via HIS comapny. Money he has earned. It is not for his personal glory--he legitimately wants to help. Hell, what if it was for his 'glory'? The bottom line is millions have benefited from this money.
I'm really trying to find your point in all thiese rhetorical questions.
you really need an explaination? ok here goes.
you know what I cant. except that you need to realize how much good that money does. read the websites I sent. you will learn alot.
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/MediaCenter/FactSheet/
in case you refuse to read it....just a few to start...keep in mind, he does not have to give a single penny to any of these projects. not one.
United Negro College Fund, Gates Millennium Scholars Program - $1 billion
The GAVI Alliance - $1.5 billion
Malaria Vaccine Initiative - $258 million
Save the Children, Saving Newborn Lives - $110 million
United Way of King County, Seattle, WA, - $55 million
Knowledgeworks Foundation - $20 million
National Council of Culture & Arts, Mexico Library Project - $11.7 million
Public Access Computing Hardware Upgrade Program, Multiple library systems - $5.3 million
do you have any idea how much money this is?
Total grant commitments since inception: $11 billion
Total 2005 grant payments: $1.36 billion
Yeah, I'm with this guy. onelongsong, I can't follow any of your thinking/rationales. Either you are full of shit, or I just smoked the best weed ever. Maybe a little of both.
getting defensive about not giving your employees decent wages or benefits by saying that all that money instead goes to help abused and homeless children...oh please I believe that as much as i believe that eating buffalo meat has medical benefits. (and it most certainly isn't saving my vegetarian ass) lets see a link to that study. that you already said you took a government grant for. you know, the one where you claim that eating grass-fed buffalos lowers bad cholesterol
angels share laughter
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sorry I got that wrong, it should say 1....2....3....BUFFALOSHIT!
psst....you still need to inform google
angels share laughter
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