Minimum Wage
desandrews
Posts: 143
The last time the minimum wage was raised, I was 16 years old working as a sacker in a grocery store. I was, needless to say, very happy about the only raise I received at that job over the 4 years I worked there.
Since then, I've understood arguments on either side to raise minimum wage or just abolish it all together. The thing I don't understand is why the proposed increases out there right now are so weak? Raising it $8 or $12 phased in over time. Screw that. I think we should raise the minimum wage to $24/hr. If you work a full 40 hour week for 52 weeks that puts you at about $50,000/yr. You can't tell me the true "poverty line" is lower than this. It's almost impossible to even own a car on this salary much less a house if you're trying to raise a family. Plus, having both parents work should not be a necessity so the entire family should be able to survive on one salary, that minimum salary in my mind is $50K.
So why not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $24.00 an hour and really get this poverty thing over with. You don't think people will want to work at McDonald's for $24 an hour?
On a side note, it should be indexed for cost of living as well, so $24 in rural areas, something more like $35 in a city like Chicago, $45 in LA and $50 in NYC. I'm sick of seeing poor inner-cities, that needs to be corrected.
Since then, I've understood arguments on either side to raise minimum wage or just abolish it all together. The thing I don't understand is why the proposed increases out there right now are so weak? Raising it $8 or $12 phased in over time. Screw that. I think we should raise the minimum wage to $24/hr. If you work a full 40 hour week for 52 weeks that puts you at about $50,000/yr. You can't tell me the true "poverty line" is lower than this. It's almost impossible to even own a car on this salary much less a house if you're trying to raise a family. Plus, having both parents work should not be a necessity so the entire family should be able to survive on one salary, that minimum salary in my mind is $50K.
So why not raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $24.00 an hour and really get this poverty thing over with. You don't think people will want to work at McDonald's for $24 an hour?
On a side note, it should be indexed for cost of living as well, so $24 in rural areas, something more like $35 in a city like Chicago, $45 in LA and $50 in NYC. I'm sick of seeing poor inner-cities, that needs to be corrected.
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That would be great for the one employee they have on staff. Problem is A quarter pounder with cheese would cost about 35 bucks and take about an 3 hours to get as the same person taking orders would be filling them, as well as cleaning tables and mopping floors.
We're so spolied in American. Did you know 95.9% of the world makes less than 30k a year? http://www.rprogress.org/java/Footpdist/Footpdist.html
(and now my bad spelling is going to be evident)
Facetious
WOW. I thoght I was wrong, but man! Swing and a miss. Ouch.
Well, yes and no. I am not 100% serious but why is the idea so absurd? Personally, if you are an advocate of a living wage or increasing the minimum wage, I see no reason why you stop at the numerical levels that you do.
Arguments for the minimum wage increase are about elevating the lower class, providing dignity to people that do un-glorious work etc. Why stop at $8/hr? What do you really think you're going to accomplish with $8/hr? Anything? I don't think so.
LikeAnOcean, you said you're doing just fine on your salary, is that for a family or just yourself? If you were to add a few kids to the mix would that change how you're doing? Are you in a major metropolitan area?
Rhetorical questions I suppose, but the point I'm getting at, why doesn't anyone ever discuss increasing the minimum wage to a REAL living wage?
So I threw out $24, and it was laughed at, so the consensus is that's too high. Cornnifer correctly pointed out that there'd be one person at McDonalds left to serve you if they had to pay that.
So is anyone in favor of raising the minimum wage willing to honestly tell us what they think the number should be and why that number is appropriate as compared to $5.15 or $24.00.
Similarly, why stop at numerical tax levels. Should't they just be zero? If I can spend my money better than the government, why should I, or anyone else, pay one cent?
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Because there are services the government provides to each and everyone one of us, like defense, roads, police, firemen etc. We have to pay for those things. It's pretty simple really, figure out how much it will cost and allocate it in a fair manner to the populace. Whatever numerical tax level that is, let it be, the numbers do the work for you.
The real discussion begins when you start talking about what the government should provide and how it's fair to allocate it.
And obviously I know that. But your semi-facetious* post reminded me for some reason of this. When people watn their taxes lowered, what is the floor.
Yes, government intervenes where the market fails (like your above examples). When does it fail? As you said THAT is the real discussion. I don't think it fails when a high school can't make $24 per hour. But I think it does when a person can't pay rent while working full time.
*Thanks qtegirl
Fair enough. I questioned the "Similarly" comment, but now I see your point.
If there were safeguards in place to ensure that the raise hike wouldn't be absorbed by the consumers it would be a very good idea. Seeing as how minimum wage, with inflation considered, hasn't gone up in almost 40 years, it sure as hell is time.
So as long as you're only stealing from the businessman, and not the consumer, you're cool with it?
its not really stealing. As i said, minimum wage hasn't gone up in almost 40 years, in relation to inflation, and as a flat rate its been 9 years, which is a crime. As the cost of living goes up wages stay the same, meaning the poor are getting poorer while the rich are getting richer. Same school different class.
as an employer; let me tell you how i deal with minimum wage.
when minimum wage was low; i hired school kids to sweep floors after school. when minimum wage rose; i had the full time workers stop 10 minutes before quitting time and sweep the floors themselves.
this is just a simple example but it extends to all phases of business. 1 hour lunches were cut to 1/2 hour. 15 minute breaks cut to 10 minutes. profit sharing stopped completely. healthcare now paid by employees. the extra profits bought computerized machinery and instead of 1 machinist running 1 machine; 1 minimum wage employee is running 3 machines.
next is the 30 hour work week. the employer doesn't have to offer any benefits; yet can run a 60 hour work shift.
before celebrating the rise in minimum wage; wait to see the rise in both unemployment and corporate profits.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
which is why safeguards need to be implemented by the government to ensure the employer takes the cost, not the consumer or the employees. In the case of small businesses they can offer tax breaks and incentives to make sure they don't feel the hike.
if the employer absorbs the cost, the number of employers will drop, since the return on their investments will lessen.
Fewer employers will lessen competition in the market, and thus, prices will rise, and those who benefit from the new minimum wage will now have less buying-power then they did before the increase.
Three years ago, some grocery checkers went on strike in Los Angeles. Many of them earn more then $20/hr. In order to afford to pay them the high wage, stores must charge more for food, so low-wage people suffer.
Some may benefit from an increase in minimum wages & union pay rates, but in the long run, the ow wage earners as a whole always suffer the most.
Economics do not allow for employers to absorb the minimum wage increase without a detrimental effect on the minimum wage worker.
i can then set up shop off shore. employers are business owners because they're a little smarter. you'll never hurt the business owner. we close the doors and open somewhere else. i don't mean to be arrogant but every swing at the corporate world slaps the blue collar world in the face. fine me and i cut jobs; then spread the work to the remaining workers. if they don't want to do it; there's a hungry person behind them willing to do it.
the cashiers now bag groceries. the baggers jobs are obsolete because of minimum wage. cut the jobs; spread the work.
and how will the govt absorb the lost tax revenue caused by the tax breaks?.....they will have to cut other services, or increase taxes. hence, the min. wage earner will pay a higher tax rate.
so the bagger should lose his job so that the unskilled union member can earn an inflated wage?
why not fire the cashier and train the non-union bagger who will work for less?
you're right. tax the business and the business will either outsource or spread the workload throughout the other employees.
people always love to hate "the employer", but they need to realize that the employer is the one who took the risk to set up shop, and that the employee gets his wages, even of the company is losing money. I won't list all of the risks to which an employer is subject, but the risk of a lawsuit due to the acts of an employee can cost millions!
true. and remember the cashier took the baggers wages so the cashier must also take the baggers responsabilities; ie: bagging the groceries.
also notice how the union albertsons are being replaced by the non-union kohls. both owned by kroger. funny how that works.
I am a very liberal person, and i think unions were necessary to protect workers rights and ensure safe work places for coalminers a long time ago, but it bugs me when a union tries to strong-arm in order to get highly above-market wages.
Though they are not as extreme, a union can be compared to a street gang that uses threats and their large number of members in order to have things go their way.
I pay a bit more than the local Wal-Mart or other non-union shops, but it's worth it to me.
And my local grocery store is expanding -- opening a brand new location a mile or so away from the Wal-Mart.
So are they stupid? Doomed? Or just decent human beings living by the golden rule?
doesn't feel that way right now. That's the hopeful
idea . . . Hope didn't get much applause . . .
Hope! Hope is the underdog!"
-- EV, Live at the Showbox