I think people just dont want to face facts. Conservatives, everytime race is brought up, its like some uncle has come to stay, and he is a messy uncle, one who makes messes in your house and doesnt clean up, and always asks for 300 more bucks.
Race is like wealth. its not discussed in our society. Even though we pretend to be civilized and fair and the greatest country in the world, one where everyone reguardless of skin, race, age, gender, sexual identity, can get a job and can make it here in the u.s. Its all a lie. Its false.
Race is underdiscussed in society, which makes it interesting people here are so resistent to the idea that whiteness has any bearing on how I or others are treated.
I am sure you would get almost universal agreement especially on this board that people of color have it rough. They are judged on the color of their skin, and in a negative way. I think almost everyone on here agrees that racism still exists and that their are still obstacles for people of color to jump through and face, that stand in the way of them "making it" here.
What I dont get is why people here are so resistant to the idea that whiteness plays a factor as well. That if your a black male, living in portland, the whitest city in the u.s. and are wanting to attend Portland State or whatever, its harder for you to get into college, because you arent white and such. Or move that same black male to Missouri or Arkansas or Mississippi and that only intesifies. A white male no matter WHAT INCOME bracket would have a easier time getting into college than a black male NO MATTER WHAT income bracket. Thats the facts m'am.
Colleges, pick your state, arent usually a breeding ground for multiculturalism and such. Colleges are mostly filled with upper middle to upper class kids. I went to college, and my parents paid for my college, I know, I say the tuition bills. College is EXPENSIVE. And its also VERY VERY white. I live in Eugene, the land of the hippies. We have our own Oregon Country Fair each july where for 3 days hippies run wild in the country land in Eugene, and hang out and such. This is hippie central. Yet the college, a respected college here is notoriously white.
Whiteness is the elephant in the room and its troubling we on this board cant have a discussion about it.
Whiteness is never or hardly ever used as something bad. Its not bad to be white when applying for a job. its not bad to be white when in a shopping mall. Its not bad to be white if you just got arrested for drugs, seeing as our jails are filled with people of color (65 percent of those in jail, are minorities). Its not bad to be white when applying for a loan, because if your black, you may be automatically assumed to be in debt when I fact most of our population is in debt, its not just one race. Whiteness except in rare occasions, is a positive and is helpful. I would bet in all honestly, most white drivers on this board havent been victims of being racially profiled. Sure their are exceptions, but lets be honest, the LA police department aint going to beverly hills to arrest people who cheated on their taxes, they are going to primarily black and latino neighborhoods, primarily poor neighborhoods.
Blackness, by definition is bad. Black is the color of death, or darkness or oblivion of something scary. Whiteness is pure, untainted, innocent. Blackness can be a good or bad thing, but many times it is a bad thing and a negative in the eyes of people in power. When applying for a job, when getting a loan, when driving my car, when arrested for drugs, I would much rather be a white person than a black, because statistically, your chances are better of not being as harshly punished.
Its gross our society not only refuses to discuss race, but also dismisses those who speak about it and those who try to level the playing field.
Our society has a long way to go to be the promised land that MLK spoke of.
What's the average white man to do other than to acknowledge it exists in varying degrees and say sorry? We can't change races. you want me to give you my house and car? my job? my wife and life? I don't get it. I was just born like this... I'm not a racist, I don't condone it or entertain it. What exactly is expected?
Examples can be picked and chosen to enhance any side of the argument.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
If you can quote me as saying that, I will apologize and say you were right. But unless and until you produce evidence, I think you'd better stop accusing be of things.
so let me make it clear for you. I dont appreciate being told WHAT I believe. Ask if you are curious, I would love to tell you. But dont misquote me. I dont appreciate being placated.
Plus I am a white male. If I really thought whites were the devil I would darken my skin or I would have killed myself. All things I havent done and dont plan on doing
Thanks end of rant
As for what I believe I did say about whites and the devil was that Malcolm X said whites were the devil or blue eyed devils. I thought that was different and by extention NOT racism when compared with a white man saying to a black man "you n word". Its different. History is whats different. Blacks didnt own whites in history. Whites did.
What's the average white man to do other than to acknowledge it exists in varying degrees and say sorry? We can't change races. you want me to give you my house and car? my job? my wife and life? I don't get it. I was just born like this... I'm not a racist, I don't condone it or entertain it. What exactly is expected?
Examples can be picked and chosen to enhance any side of the argument.
I think the thing is, there hasnt been a mass apology for racism and slavery by our government or presidents. Clinton said something about slavery and his apologies, I think he was visiting Africa, but not on a public scale and not directed towards our country and its inhabitants.
The fact remains, we all, myself included lives off things that blacks created. Its not discussed the idea of Wall Street and who actually built Downtown New York, and its not discussed what was situated on the WTC sites LONG before 9/11. Its just not discussed.
It would be one thing if all whites were actually sorry, but we arent. We still live and breath and eat things that we didnt create and those of different colors and cultures created. yet we often refuse to acknowledge this.
I think a nationwide apology would be in order.
But as a white male, the thing to really do is to make sure you are aware of your whiteness. Thats never done. People of color are people of color. Ethnic studies classes or Race classes, its assumed before even attending the class, that that class focuses on blacks, latinos, native americans, chinese, etc... Whiteness isnt discussed in terms of that. Its non existent.
Most of us speak of "that black football player" or "that black guy in class" or "that black guy we passed on the street", yet most of us if we passed a white person wouldnt say "that white football player" "that white kid in class" that white guy on the street". Color only is discussed in terms of blackness. Thats a fact.
I think to be aware of all this is actually something all whites could do. To be aware of how race plays a part in our daily lives. Because frankly, as a white male, I dont sit and wonder about how my color affects my daily life. Yet people of color often have to.
I think a national apology, whites making active strides to think and define race and racism where it exists in our daily lives, and to force banks that made their fortunes off black labor to give the money back
I think at the heart of the matter is wealth. Wealth is key. Its arguably more important than racist cops or racist boss'. As a result of being slaves and sharecroppers, many black families dont have wealth. They have nothing or little to pass on to the next generation. Obviously many whites have this issue, but again, this is in many ways uniquely African American. As a result of all this, some african americans live in poverty.
So for a public apology to discuss wealth would also be beneficial.
As for what I believe I did say about whites and the devil was that Malcolm X said whites were the devil or blue eyed devils. quote]
At one time in his life, yes, he did say this. He was regurgitating what he had been taught and what at the time seemed to make sense. Can't blame him much for that. What you must keep in mind is that Malcolm can not be frozen in time. He later recanted this belief and went to great lengths to stress a new realization of human brotherhood. He is, IMO one of the most misunderstood men in history. i'm guessing even by you. i don't care how many posters you have on your wall. You claim him as a hero. He is definitely that, but i suggest you try a little harder to understand the man. The WHOLE man.
In another post you mentioned MLK and Marcus Garvey. i'm curious just how much you really know and understand these men. How about Frederick Douglas, Booker T Washington, W.E.B Dubois, etc. i have no problem with you claiming these men as your heroes. As a matter of fact i count them amongst my own. i just hope you truly understand them. A malcolm X poster on your wall doesn't mean shit. In fact its offensive if you dont really know all that much about the guy.
My .02
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
As for what I believe I did say about whites and the devil was that Malcolm X said whites were the devil or blue eyed devils. quote]
At one time in his life, yes, he did say this. He was regurgitating what he had been taught and what at the time seemed to make sense. Can't blame him much for that. What you must keep in mind is that Malcolm can not be frozen in time. He later recanted this belief and went to great lengths to stress a new realization of human brotherhood. He is, IMO one of the most misunderstood men in history. i'm guessing even by you. i don't care how many posters you have on your wall. You claim him as a hero. He is definitely that, but i suggest you try a little harder to understand the man. The WHOLE man.
In another post you mentioned MLK and Marcus Garvey. i'm curious just how much you really know and understand these men. How about Frederick Douglas, Booker T Washington, W.E.B Dubois, etc. i have no problem with you claiming these men as your heroes. As a matter of fact i count them amongst my own. i just hope you truly understand them. A malcolm X poster on your wall doesn't mean shit. In fact its offensive if you dont really know all that much about the guy.
My .02
Booker T., a hero? That's the seperate as the fingers guy right? I'm not so sure about him. Anyway there's some really good stuff out there written on whiteness by Kincheloe, et al., Jensen, Dyer, and many others. It's interesting stuff, and what Che is asking us to get to the heart of I think is relevent. Also just b/c "it's human nature" doesn't mean it's right or good, and that's the real point here. I would argue that latent/cultural racism is more dangerous than cross burning KKK peeps, because it gives room for everyone to go "it's human nature we can't do anything about that", or "at least it's better", and then nothing happens. At least with overt racists there's room to say look that's f'd up. What should we do? Try to overcome it, try to make "whiteness" visible, try to enact change, that's what AA in it's best uses does - it gives equally or better qualified minorities the opportunity that lower qualified white men usually have received.
That if your a black male, living in portland, the whitest city in the u.s. and are wanting to attend Portland State or whatever, its harder for you to get into college, because you arent white and such.
I totally agree with your points.....but a potato could get into Portland State. There were people in my American studies class that didn't know what the scopes monkey trial was. I would use Reed, UP or Lewis and Clark as an example there
I'm thinking that Che is an overt communist, having basically stated that he is, and is trying to make comments about economics and poverty into a race issue, when it has long ago stopped being that simple.
In the process, he has basically accused any white person with any wealth of being racist.
As for what I believe I did say about whites and the devil was that Malcolm X said whites were the devil or blue eyed devils. I thought that was different and by extention NOT racism when compared with a white man saying to a black man "you n word". Its different. History is whats different. Blacks didnt own whites in history. Whites did.
history doesn't lessen the fact that malcolm X, before his trip to mecca, was racist. History doesn't excuse anything...it was in the past. We live in the present. If someone of color thinks less of me b/c I am white and for that reason alone, it is racist, just as if i think less of someone with darker skin is inferior only b/c of their skin. We need to look at the mistakes our ancestors made and not repeat them. If we allow some of those stereotypes to persist in our day, it is our fault...but it's no ones fault today for what happend 100+ years ago.
Blacks also owned black slaves in americas history, which is something that is not commonly talked about. And many africans sold their countrymen into slavery so slavery is really a dark stain on everyones past.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Discrimination and racism infest all walk of life regardless skin color, ethnicity or religion.
1) You're against racism and discrimination by anyone or any group of people.
2) Or you're justifying, excusing and supporting racism and discrimination by one specific group; based on some perceived "entitlement complex".
There really isn't anything else to this absurd debate.
And if any of you still don't comprehend the mechanism of racist/discriminatory double-standards and how the vicious cycle is only fed, nurtured, and encouraged by it; than do some extensive research on the history of our species and the effects, cycles and historical results yielded by such double-standards.
There's a monumental difference and distinction between favoring, and equality. Between equal access and favorable access. Between equal opportunties and selective access to opportunities.
There's also a monumental difference and distinction between speaking of a group of people in generalities and speaking of people based on individual situations, dispositions and behavior.
To apply these grossly antiquated scenarios to our current (2007) situation, is to show a complete lack of awareness and knowledge of what has been occuring in this country. It is also a great insult to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of black people who have and continue to work their butts off to get a good education, run a successful business, achieve their goals, build a family and life- through their own determination and hard work, with out blaming whitey for all the problems and obstacles in life, that each individual (no matter what color ) face everyday.
Discrimination and racism infest all walk of life regardless skin color, ethnicity or religion.
1) You're against racism and discrimination by anyone or any group of people.
2) Or you're justifying, excusing and supporting racism and discrimination by one specific group; based on some perceived "entitlement complex".
There really isn't anything else to this absurd debate.
And if any of you still don't comprehend the mechanism of racist/discriminatory double-standards and how the vicious cycle is only fed, nurtured, and encouraged by it; than do some extensive research on the history of our species and the effects, cycles and historical results yielded by such double-standards.
There's a monumental difference and distinction between favoring, and equality. Between equal access and favorable access. Between equal opportunties and selective access to opportunities.
There's also a monumental difference and distinction between speaking of a group of people in generalities and speaking of people based on individual situations, dispositions and behavior.
To apply these grossly antiquated scenarios to our current (2007) situation, is to show a complete lack of awareness and knowledge of what has been occuring in this country. It is also a great insult to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of black people who have and continue to work their butts off to get a good education, run a successful business, achieve their goals, build a family and life- through their own determination and hard work, with out blaming whitey for all the problems and obstacles in life, that each individual (no matter what color ) face everyday.
Discrimination and racism infest all walk of life regardless skin color, ethnicity or religion.
1) You're against racism and discrimination by anyone or any group of people.
2) Or you're justifying, excusing and supporting racism and discrimination by one specific group; based on some perceived "entitlement complex".
There really isn't anything else to this absurd debate.
And if any of you still don't comprehend the mechanism of racist/discriminatory double-standards and how the vicious cycle is only fed, nurtured, and encouraged by it; than do some extensive research on the history of our species and the effects, cycles and historical results yielded by such double-standards.
There's a monumental difference and distinction between favoring, and equality. Between equal access and favorable access. Between equal opportunties and selective access to opportunities.
There's also a monumental difference and distinction between speaking of a group of people in generalities and speaking of people based on individual situations, dispositions and behavior.
To apply these grossly antiquated scenarios to our current (2007) situation, is to show a complete lack of awareness and knowledge of what has been occuring in this country. It is also a great insult to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of black people who have and continue to work their butts off to get a good education, run a successful business, achieve their goals, build a family and life- through their own determination and hard work, with out blaming whitey for all the problems and obstacles in life, that each individual (no matter what color ) face everyday.
Hey I agree that individual situations need to be treated as such, and have continually stated that. So, for example, where things like AA allow an underqualified minority preferential treatment, I do agree that it needs to be changed. In fact, I'm sure most minorities would agree with that statement. The problem is that historically, and, yes, even in the contemporary moment white people, white men in specific, often get that type of preferential treatment, it just doesn't have a negative terminology attached to it like AA, instead it's called being "legacied", or traditional hiring practices. In other words, for years underqualified white men have been getting the jobs that other MORE qualified candidates deserve and this can be seen wherever AA is not currently in use. Further, AA at its best makes room for (over)qualified, hard working, minorities to get jobs that they deserve, but because of our general history of racial discrimination they don't receive. Again, if you actually check the facts of AA, wherever it is used there is more diversity not at the low levels, but at the top - which implies that they achieved once in their jobs. Moreover, if you check the facts of AA, you will also find that white women benefit most from it, so your fears are misdirected at best when you think that things like AA "blame whitey" when "whitey" benefits the most from it. So this thread isn't about "blaming whitey", but rather bringing to light the facts of our sitaution, and venting my frustration at the fact that white people - in general - claim victimization where they are - again in general - the victimizers.
A friend is one before whom I may think aloud.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer.
A man of genius is privileged only as far as he is genius. His dullness is as
All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.
All our progress is an unfolding, like a vegetable bud. You have first an instinct, then an opinion, then a knowledge as the plant has root, bud, and fruit. Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason.
As we grow old…the beauty steals inward.
Be not the slave of your own past. Plunge into the sublime seas, dive deep and swim far, so you shall com back with self-respect, with new power, with an advanced experience that shall explain and overlook the old.
Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think.
Children are all foreigners.
Colleges hate geniuses, just as convents hate saints.
Conversation is an art in which a man has all mankind for his competitors, for it is that which all are practising every day while they live.
Democracy becomes a government of bullies tempered by editors.
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
Don't waste yourself in rejection, nor bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good.
Every great and commanding moment in the annals of the world is the triumph of some enthusiasm.
Every hero becomes a bore at last.
- More quotations on:
Every sweet has its sour; every evil its good.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
- More quotations on: [Evil]
Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Give all to love; obey thy heart.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
God enters by a private door into every individual.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
He has not learned the lesson of life who does not every day surmount a fear.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends, the old and the new.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I pack my trunk, embrace my friends, embark on the sea, and at last wake up in Naples, and there beside me is the Stern Fact, the Sad Self, unrelenting, identical, that I fled from.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
If I have lost confidence in myself, I have the universe against me.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
hehee. Really, it's out of hand. Narcissitic. Between this one and Che's rants, it's just ridiculous...
ARTIST: The Cars
TITLE: Good Times Roll
Let the good times roll
Let them knock you around
Let the good times roll
Let them make you a clown
Let them leave you up in the air
Let them brush your rock and roll hair
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Let the stories be told
Let them say what they want
Let the photos be old
Let them show what they want
If the illusion is real
Let them give you a ride
If they got thunder appeal
Let them be on your side
Let the good times roll
{Repeat 'til end}
OK, so he makes what might be some kind of attempt to call me narcissistic but then doesn't clarify.
Whatever ... I guess what bothered me about the original post was the opening statement to the effect of "people don't believe racism exists anymore". I think that comment does a huge disservice to many of the people in that now locked thread who were making no such argument. That comment is insulting to peoples' intelligence. Racism against non-whites clearly exists and most people will admit as much. What's concerning to me is the way in which some scholars completely ignore the possibility of things going too far in the other direction. Any attempt to point out instances of white people being treated less than fairly gets some kind of dismissive remark like "No one expects you to understand" or "You're just racist yourself" or what have you. Um, no. Why can't we acknowledge that race relations are more complex than black people doing no wrong and white people being the sole locus of the problem?
I'm sure your thesis is really good, ryan. Just didn't like your opening comment in this thread.
OK, so he makes what might be some kind of attempt to call me narcissistic but then doesn't clarify.
Whatever ... I guess what bothered me about the original post was the opening statement to the effect of "people don't believe racism exists anymore". I think that comment does a huge disservice to many of the people in that now locked thread who were making no such argument. That comment is insulting to peoples' intelligence. Racism against non-whites clearly exists and most people will admit as much. What's concerning to me is the way in which some scholars completely ignore the possibility of things going too far in the other direction. Any attempt to point out instances of white people being treated less than fairly gets some kind of dismissive remark like "No one expects you to understand" or "You're just racist yourself" or what have you. Um, no. Why can't we acknowledge that race relations are more complex than black people doing no wrong and white people being the sole locus of the problem?
I'm sure your thesis is really good, ryan. Just didn't like your opening comment in this thread.
I think che dismissed himself almost immediately with the rhetoric of the '60's he brought. Rather silly.
OK, so he makes what might be some kind of attempt to call me narcissistic but then doesn't clarify.
Whatever ... I guess what bothered me about the original post was the opening statement to the effect of "people don't believe racism exists anymore". I think that comment does a huge disservice to many of the people in that now locked thread who were making no such argument. That comment is insulting to peoples' intelligence. Racism against non-whites clearly exists and most people will admit as much. What's concerning to me is the way in which some scholars completely ignore the possibility of things going too far in the other direction. Any attempt to point out instances of white people being treated less than fairly gets some kind of dismissive remark like "No one expects you to understand" or "You're just racist yourself" or what have you. Um, no. Why can't we acknowledge that race relations are more complex than black people doing no wrong and white people being the sole locus of the problem?
I'm sure your thesis is really good, ryan. Just didn't like your opening comment in this thread.
OK, so he makes what might be some kind of attempt to call me narcissistic but then doesn't clarify.
Whatever ... I guess what bothered me about the original post was the opening statement to the effect of "people don't believe racism exists anymore". I think that comment does a huge disservice to many of the people in that now locked thread who were making no such argument. That comment is insulting to peoples' intelligence. Racism against non-whites clearly exists and most people will admit as much. What's concerning to me is the way in which some scholars completely ignore the possibility of things going too far in the other direction. Any attempt to point out instances of white people being treated less than fairly gets some kind of dismissive remark like "No one expects you to understand" or "You're just racist yourself" or what have you. Um, no. Why can't we acknowledge that race relations are more complex than black people doing no wrong and white people being the sole locus of the problem?
I'm sure your thesis is really good, ryan. Just didn't like your opening comment in this thread.
reborn ... after a few responses I got on here I reworded my argument, but I had just read the last few posts before it got shut, and it was getting crazy. Most people who have referenced back showed me why, and that's why I didn't keep that arguement going. To be honest, I don't think that too many scholars on whiteness, and/or minorities want race relations to go "too far the other way". The point is that there is a lot of cultural racism that still exists, things like unfair hiring practices that continually allow for underqualified white people to keep getting hired - but it's very rarely acknowledged, whereas the few instances where AA goes to far is consistently questioned. I guess, after getting into my dissertation, it shed new light to me on what Affirmative Action has done, how it works, and who has generally benefitted. With this newer knowledge I have acquired I noticed that the (false) beliefs about how it has been implemented were being pushed on this board, and I just wanted to let peeps know how it worked. Further, I think the most interesting thing going on is that AA is huge in the millitary, which is a supposedly conservative bastion which implements liberal ideals (except in the fact that it's main purpose is to scientifically map out ways to kill large amounts of people - which may not be in and of itself conservative but is defended by conservatives). Finally what I have really learned is that whiteness is just as complicated as blackness, latinness, or asianness, but is rarely discussed as such - perhaps even more so by people like me who are liberally inclined. A lot of people on here have argued, I believe rightly, that individual situations need to be dealt with on an individual basis, but where my argument differs is that I still assert that we have to acknowledge that whiteness is still a general privilege that we need to understand. I hope that clarifies my position on the whole topic. Either way I have really enjoyed talking through this on the board, because it has really helped me think through this complicated topic, and that it is an important thing to be thinking about/discussing.
history doesn't lessen the fact that malcolm X, before his trip to mecca, was racist. .
In all do respect, this is not entirely accurate.
Malcolm once said something along the lines of "If you come to put a rope around my neck, and i hang you for it, that's not racism".
Pretty profound and insightful, IMO.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
In all do respect, this is not entirely accurate.
Malcolm once said something along the lines of "If you come to put a rope around my neck, and i hang you for it, that's not racism".
Pretty profound and insightful, IMO.
touche.
I remember reading his autobiography and getting terribly upset at his view and his painting of whites with such a broad brush (mostly b/c of the misguided direction of the nation of islam); and I really enjoyed "watching" his transformation on that trip to mecca and seeing him develop. So perhaps, I didn't paint him with too broad a brush before hand.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I remember reading his autobiography and getting terribly upset at his view and his painting of whites with such a broad brush (mostly b/c of the misguided direction of the nation of islam); and I really enjoyed "watching" his transformation on that trip to mecca and seeing him develop. So perhaps, I didn't paint him with too broad a brush before hand.
His switch away from the Nation of Islam is one of the most noble things that man ever did. One of the reasons I admire him so much ... He looked extremism right in the face and ultimately rejected it, yet still continued the good fight via the right means.
Comments
Race is like wealth. its not discussed in our society. Even though we pretend to be civilized and fair and the greatest country in the world, one where everyone reguardless of skin, race, age, gender, sexual identity, can get a job and can make it here in the u.s. Its all a lie. Its false.
Race is underdiscussed in society, which makes it interesting people here are so resistent to the idea that whiteness has any bearing on how I or others are treated.
I am sure you would get almost universal agreement especially on this board that people of color have it rough. They are judged on the color of their skin, and in a negative way. I think almost everyone on here agrees that racism still exists and that their are still obstacles for people of color to jump through and face, that stand in the way of them "making it" here.
What I dont get is why people here are so resistant to the idea that whiteness plays a factor as well. That if your a black male, living in portland, the whitest city in the u.s. and are wanting to attend Portland State or whatever, its harder for you to get into college, because you arent white and such. Or move that same black male to Missouri or Arkansas or Mississippi and that only intesifies. A white male no matter WHAT INCOME bracket would have a easier time getting into college than a black male NO MATTER WHAT income bracket. Thats the facts m'am.
Colleges, pick your state, arent usually a breeding ground for multiculturalism and such. Colleges are mostly filled with upper middle to upper class kids. I went to college, and my parents paid for my college, I know, I say the tuition bills. College is EXPENSIVE. And its also VERY VERY white. I live in Eugene, the land of the hippies. We have our own Oregon Country Fair each july where for 3 days hippies run wild in the country land in Eugene, and hang out and such. This is hippie central. Yet the college, a respected college here is notoriously white.
Whiteness is the elephant in the room and its troubling we on this board cant have a discussion about it.
Whiteness is never or hardly ever used as something bad. Its not bad to be white when applying for a job. its not bad to be white when in a shopping mall. Its not bad to be white if you just got arrested for drugs, seeing as our jails are filled with people of color (65 percent of those in jail, are minorities). Its not bad to be white when applying for a loan, because if your black, you may be automatically assumed to be in debt when I fact most of our population is in debt, its not just one race. Whiteness except in rare occasions, is a positive and is helpful. I would bet in all honestly, most white drivers on this board havent been victims of being racially profiled. Sure their are exceptions, but lets be honest, the LA police department aint going to beverly hills to arrest people who cheated on their taxes, they are going to primarily black and latino neighborhoods, primarily poor neighborhoods.
Blackness, by definition is bad. Black is the color of death, or darkness or oblivion of something scary. Whiteness is pure, untainted, innocent. Blackness can be a good or bad thing, but many times it is a bad thing and a negative in the eyes of people in power. When applying for a job, when getting a loan, when driving my car, when arrested for drugs, I would much rather be a white person than a black, because statistically, your chances are better of not being as harshly punished.
Its gross our society not only refuses to discuss race, but also dismisses those who speak about it and those who try to level the playing field.
Our society has a long way to go to be the promised land that MLK spoke of.
Examples can be picked and chosen to enhance any side of the argument.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
And labelling all white people as "the devil" isn't going to bring us any closer, guy.
If you can quote me as saying that, I will apologize and say you were right. But unless and until you produce evidence, I think you'd better stop accusing be of things.
so let me make it clear for you. I dont appreciate being told WHAT I believe. Ask if you are curious, I would love to tell you. But dont misquote me. I dont appreciate being placated.
Plus I am a white male. If I really thought whites were the devil I would darken my skin or I would have killed myself. All things I havent done and dont plan on doing
Thanks end of rant
As for what I believe I did say about whites and the devil was that Malcolm X said whites were the devil or blue eyed devils. I thought that was different and by extention NOT racism when compared with a white man saying to a black man "you n word". Its different. History is whats different. Blacks didnt own whites in history. Whites did.
Good enough for you?
I think the thing is, there hasnt been a mass apology for racism and slavery by our government or presidents. Clinton said something about slavery and his apologies, I think he was visiting Africa, but not on a public scale and not directed towards our country and its inhabitants.
The fact remains, we all, myself included lives off things that blacks created. Its not discussed the idea of Wall Street and who actually built Downtown New York, and its not discussed what was situated on the WTC sites LONG before 9/11. Its just not discussed.
It would be one thing if all whites were actually sorry, but we arent. We still live and breath and eat things that we didnt create and those of different colors and cultures created. yet we often refuse to acknowledge this.
I think a nationwide apology would be in order.
But as a white male, the thing to really do is to make sure you are aware of your whiteness. Thats never done. People of color are people of color. Ethnic studies classes or Race classes, its assumed before even attending the class, that that class focuses on blacks, latinos, native americans, chinese, etc... Whiteness isnt discussed in terms of that. Its non existent.
Most of us speak of "that black football player" or "that black guy in class" or "that black guy we passed on the street", yet most of us if we passed a white person wouldnt say "that white football player" "that white kid in class" that white guy on the street". Color only is discussed in terms of blackness. Thats a fact.
I think to be aware of all this is actually something all whites could do. To be aware of how race plays a part in our daily lives. Because frankly, as a white male, I dont sit and wonder about how my color affects my daily life. Yet people of color often have to.
I think a national apology, whites making active strides to think and define race and racism where it exists in our daily lives, and to force banks that made their fortunes off black labor to give the money back
I think at the heart of the matter is wealth. Wealth is key. Its arguably more important than racist cops or racist boss'. As a result of being slaves and sharecroppers, many black families dont have wealth. They have nothing or little to pass on to the next generation. Obviously many whites have this issue, but again, this is in many ways uniquely African American. As a result of all this, some african americans live in poverty.
So for a public apology to discuss wealth would also be beneficial.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh, yes !!!!! LOL!!!!
hehe!
It just caught me off guard, yet again, that Australianisms are still not widely known by Australians or the rest of the world.
Our unique language is slowly being eroded from our culture.
So important to maintain our cultural identity.
And "as toey as a roman sandal" seems to fit the bill here very well.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Booker T., a hero? That's the seperate as the fingers guy right? I'm not so sure about him. Anyway there's some really good stuff out there written on whiteness by Kincheloe, et al., Jensen, Dyer, and many others. It's interesting stuff, and what Che is asking us to get to the heart of I think is relevent. Also just b/c "it's human nature" doesn't mean it's right or good, and that's the real point here. I would argue that latent/cultural racism is more dangerous than cross burning KKK peeps, because it gives room for everyone to go "it's human nature we can't do anything about that", or "at least it's better", and then nothing happens. At least with overt racists there's room to say look that's f'd up. What should we do? Try to overcome it, try to make "whiteness" visible, try to enact change, that's what AA in it's best uses does - it gives equally or better qualified minorities the opportunity that lower qualified white men usually have received.
I totally agree with your points.....but a potato could get into Portland State. There were people in my American studies class that didn't know what the scopes monkey trial was. I would use Reed, UP or Lewis and Clark as an example there
Yeah, which is exactly why I used it. I use Americanisms a lot to fit in here, but felt like asserting my "Ozness" there !!
I figured it was a chance for the kiddies to learn something.
In the process, he has basically accused any white person with any wealth of being racist.
I'm not buying !!!
history doesn't lessen the fact that malcolm X, before his trip to mecca, was racist. History doesn't excuse anything...it was in the past. We live in the present. If someone of color thinks less of me b/c I am white and for that reason alone, it is racist, just as if i think less of someone with darker skin is inferior only b/c of their skin. We need to look at the mistakes our ancestors made and not repeat them. If we allow some of those stereotypes to persist in our day, it is our fault...but it's no ones fault today for what happend 100+ years ago.
Blacks also owned black slaves in americas history, which is something that is not commonly talked about. And many africans sold their countrymen into slavery so slavery is really a dark stain on everyones past.
Discrimination and racism infest all walk of life regardless skin color, ethnicity or religion.
1) You're against racism and discrimination by anyone or any group of people.
2) Or you're justifying, excusing and supporting racism and discrimination by one specific group; based on some perceived "entitlement complex".
There really isn't anything else to this absurd debate.
And if any of you still don't comprehend the mechanism of racist/discriminatory double-standards and how the vicious cycle is only fed, nurtured, and encouraged by it; than do some extensive research on the history of our species and the effects, cycles and historical results yielded by such double-standards.
There's a monumental difference and distinction between favoring, and equality. Between equal access and favorable access. Between equal opportunties and selective access to opportunities.
There's also a monumental difference and distinction between speaking of a group of people in generalities and speaking of people based on individual situations, dispositions and behavior.
To apply these grossly antiquated scenarios to our current (2007) situation, is to show a complete lack of awareness and knowledge of what has been occuring in this country. It is also a great insult to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of black people who have and continue to work their butts off to get a good education, run a successful business, achieve their goals, build a family and life- through their own determination and hard work, with out blaming whitey for all the problems and obstacles in life, that each individual (no matter what color ) face everyday.
Humans are interesting mammalas.
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Damn, I went to the wrong school.
hehee. Really, it's out of hand. Narcissitic. Between this one and Che's rants, it's just ridiculous...
ARTIST: The Cars
TITLE: Good Times Roll
Let the good times roll
Let them knock you around
Let the good times roll
Let them make you a clown
Let them leave you up in the air
Let them brush your rock and roll hair
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Let the good times roll
Let the stories be told
Let them say what they want
Let the photos be old
Let them show what they want
If the illusion is real
Let them give you a ride
If they got thunder appeal
Let them be on your side
Let the good times roll
{Repeat 'til end}
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???
The Cars do rock, though.
I prefer Emerson myself.
A friend is one before whom I may think aloud.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is braver five minutes longer.
A man of genius is privileged only as far as he is genius. His dullness is as
All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.
All our progress is an unfolding, like a vegetable bud. You have first an instinct, then an opinion, then a knowledge as the plant has root, bud, and fruit. Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason.
As we grow old…the beauty steals inward.
Be not the slave of your own past. Plunge into the sublime seas, dive deep and swim far, so you shall com back with self-respect, with new power, with an advanced experience that shall explain and overlook the old.
Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think.
Children are all foreigners.
Colleges hate geniuses, just as convents hate saints.
Conversation is an art in which a man has all mankind for his competitors, for it is that which all are practising every day while they live.
Democracy becomes a government of bullies tempered by editors.
Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.
Don't be too timid and squeamish about your actions. All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.
Don't waste yourself in rejection, nor bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good.
Every great and commanding moment in the annals of the world is the triumph of some enthusiasm.
Every hero becomes a bore at last.
- More quotations on:
Every sweet has its sour; every evil its good.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
- More quotations on: [Evil]
Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Give all to love; obey thy heart.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
God enters by a private door into every individual.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
He has not learned the lesson of life who does not every day surmount a fear.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends, the old and the new.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
I pack my trunk, embrace my friends, embark on the sea, and at last wake up in Naples, and there beside me is the Stern Fact, the Sad Self, unrelenting, identical, that I fled from.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
If I have lost confidence in myself, I have the universe against me.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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OK, so he makes what might be some kind of attempt to call me narcissistic but then doesn't clarify.
Whatever ... I guess what bothered me about the original post was the opening statement to the effect of "people don't believe racism exists anymore". I think that comment does a huge disservice to many of the people in that now locked thread who were making no such argument. That comment is insulting to peoples' intelligence. Racism against non-whites clearly exists and most people will admit as much. What's concerning to me is the way in which some scholars completely ignore the possibility of things going too far in the other direction. Any attempt to point out instances of white people being treated less than fairly gets some kind of dismissive remark like "No one expects you to understand" or "You're just racist yourself" or what have you. Um, no. Why can't we acknowledge that race relations are more complex than black people doing no wrong and white people being the sole locus of the problem?
I'm sure your thesis is really good, ryan. Just didn't like your opening comment in this thread.
I think che dismissed himself almost immediately with the rhetoric of the '60's he brought. Rather silly.
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I have a CD for you
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In all do respect, this is not entirely accurate.
Malcolm once said something along the lines of "If you come to put a rope around my neck, and i hang you for it, that's not racism".
Pretty profound and insightful, IMO.
touche.
I remember reading his autobiography and getting terribly upset at his view and his painting of whites with such a broad brush (mostly b/c of the misguided direction of the nation of islam); and I really enjoyed "watching" his transformation on that trip to mecca and seeing him develop. So perhaps, I didn't paint him with too broad a brush before hand.
His switch away from the Nation of Islam is one of the most noble things that man ever did. One of the reasons I admire him so much ... He looked extremism right in the face and ultimately rejected it, yet still continued the good fight via the right means.