But then we have the feminists who don't... Complaining about female tennis players not earning as much as their male colleagues, while it's quite obvious that female tennis players only work three fifths of what the men do. I say equal pay = equal play.
It's like a man and a woman doing the same job, but the man works five days and the woman only works three yet the feminists seem to think that this woman should get the same pay as that man.
Equal pay for equal work, my ass.
These are the things I'm talking about... but these are obscure examples, right?
True but I really just want to understand people's views because many posters here, yourself included, label themselves feminist and like I said I'm a bit distrustful towards feminists... and I just want to know which kind of feminist I'm dealing with...
i agree, there are many within the feminist movement who have and do take things too far, to a point of pushing inequality in another direction...which is no better. however, i believe the bulk of self-identified feminists ARE for true equality, and nothing more.....decisions being based on merit, ability, individual choice....and not gender.
It seems to me this group is the most influential and vocal one...
Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't think I am or someone would have corrected me already) but women have the same rights as men in the Western world. There's still inequality. We should work to eliminate that, I definitely agree, but I think there's not much legislation can do now. The laws already exist.
you're not wrong of course.
except for this one point: yes legislation does exist, however, there are those who continually try to chip away at these rights, alter these laws...so sadly it is at least for the forseeable future, something that must always be monitored so these laws and rights are NOT taken away. and new developments especially in regards to reporductive rights come up as science allows, and again, always need to encsure the legislation to ensure access.
anyhoo, my 'point' of discussing legislation was simply b/c another post mentioned that such things can't be legislated, that it comes from within or whatever else...and simply pointing out that YES indeed it can and is legislated, and should be. and we as a collective society should always work towards such.
I would really like to believe that most feminists aim for equality and fairness but frankly, I'm not convinced. I see many feminists support unjust and unfair prorgrammes... You may say that's a minority and that those feminists certainly don't represent the entire feminist movement... But the truth is these feminists are influential and work towards "equal" opportunity for women through legislation and by doing so they're creating injustice towards men.
and you are of course, as anyone, free to believe what you want, and work against such injustices if you desire. i don't think i ever referred to a 'minority' within the feminist movement. i think i simply mentioned there ARE 'extremists' in all groups. the old the squeaky whell gets the grease'. i think there is a very large, rather silent majority within the feminsts. i DO consider myself a feminist, why wouldn't i? i am absolutely FOR equal rights for women and will ALWAYs support such. i will not, however, support reverse discrimination, and there ARE some things feminists as a group have worked towards that i disagree with. bound to happen. am i a very vocal feminist? no. my voice is heard in the voters booth, when i always choose to support candidates who support women's rights. my voice is heard when there are petitions to sign to ensure laws protecting women stay active, etc. however, i am not out there pounding the pavement.
again, you are right...there ARE feminists who go too far, and i think i expressed my agreement with that stance in an earlier post. however, overall, i STILL support the ideas and ideals of feminism and always will. just b/c there may be a faction fighting for feminist issues i disagree with does not mean i completely discount feminism, nor end my support to ideals, overall that i DO believe in.
So forgive me if I'm sceptical of the feminists who speak of justice, fairness and equality while they support these causes or remain silent about them. If I were part of a movement that fought for equality, justice and fairness I would speak up against those within my movement who are unjust themselves.
forgiveness is unnecessary. as i said, i agree on some points with you....and i do not support causes i disagree with, but no, i don't really fight against em either, but there are plenty of things i disagree with that i don't fight against simply b/c they are not that important to me. i only have so much time and energy, so i try to work towards things i believe in, when i can. however, if one feels very strongly against something, i absolutely support and encourage all to fight against what the see as an injustice.
as you said earlier, i think the 'big work' of feminism has come and gone....to me, it's more for mantainence and insuring said freedoms. there ARE still some key issues to be improved upon and/or some new ideas to be enacted or enforced, and yes, through legislation...but overall, i don't see myself as a part of a movement, more along the lines of a belief system.
Feminists like to draw parallels between feminism and the African-American civil rights movement, well here's a quote for them:
"Means we use must be as pure as the ends we seek."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
and of course...i agree.
equal rights are equal rights, for all. that is the ideal. some may not work towards such in a manner i agree with, but i try and support those who DO best represent my beliefs and desires.
True but I really just want to understand people's views because many posters here, yourself included, label themselves feminist and like I said I'm a bit distrustful towards feminists... and I just want to know which kind of feminist I'm dealing with...
can't speak for others of course, but for myself i am the 'kind' of feminist who believes in the pure ideals of feminism, the basic rights of women to have control over their own minds and bodies, and TRUE equality between genders in the workplace and in the home. that's it. i am not out to 'get' men, to create a new, yet still unfair system, i am not a man-hater, not in the least! ...i far prefer gender and choice be the non-issue i personally believe it should be. men and women ARE different, but that does not mean we cannot be equal.
as a woman, i cannot imagine myself NOT identifying as feminist. i know it's become a militant dirty word to many, but in it's purest form...it's a beautiful and powerful thing, or it should be. a feminist is someone who supports equal rights between the genders and works towards women's inidivudal rights. of course i support equal rights for ALL, and am against inequalities based on ANY criteria such as culture, religion, gender, etc. however, as i said, as a woman to me it's a no-brainer to self-identify as a feminist. it almost seems odd to me to imagine a woman who would not...b/c why wouldn't someone want equal rights for themselves amongst society?
It seems to me this group is the most influential and vocal one...
and, once again...you're probably right. these are the feminists who still fight for things they still see as imbalanced. perhaps they create new, but still imblanced, situations. in ANY group i think the same can be said. not excusing it, just trying to aide in the understanding. you will never have such a large group of human beings agree 100% on everything, even if they do have many ideals in common. and those who are the most vocal and working for what they want, usually ARE the most influencial in affecting change, or at the very least...being heard. and so it goes. if one disagreeds so strongly, perhaps they have to get vocal themselves. obviously, ideas that collective society does not want, won't happen. lots of things that may not be exactly as i would like...LOTsa of things, but as i said, i try and work/support those who follow my own ideals, and even then, got to pick and choose your battles and what is MOST important to you.
*late edit - just an aside to Jeanie.....exactly!
the whole unfair pay/hiring practices based on women and their reproduction, etc...that's the whole POINT about the 'freedoms' involved with BC. thruout history women's lives have been completely ruled by their lack of choice/control over their own reproduction and it DID have many, many adverse/negative consequences. there can be, and IS, balance between the freedom/control of BC AND having a family if you so desire. to me, that is the BEAUTY of it, and it benefits women and society as a whole imho.
anyhoo, my 'point' of discussing legislation was simply b/c another post mentioned that such things can't be legislated, that it comes from within or whatever else...and simply pointing out that YES indeed it can and is legislated, and should be. and we as a collective society should always work towards such.
I said that overcoming obstacles and achievement come from within. We cannot legislate people to achieve or overcome their obstacles. I haven't heard anyone disagree with this. If you're debating another point, great, it's just not mine! (unless there is "another post"-er I'm overlooking..)
My question is that as women overcome and achieve beyond great odds, given all the mulitiple variables in life, will they want to even the playing field for others? Will they believe it's even possible? After all, evolution is in place for reasons. It doesn't give us a pass on anything really, when striving for our dreams. Myself, I certainly believe in doing what I can to support others, and to make sure the rules are fair (as Collin pointed out they generally are in North America). And still, that leaves the evolution aspect, of life challenges, which I personally embrace.
it's about simply basing actions and benefits on merit, not gender.
Collin (and I) made this point over and over in the last feminism thread:
Often feminist actions ask that women are given positions due to their gender, rather than merit (affirmative action), and call it "fair", which is perceived as a contradiction - and one that undermines the original point - by many.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't think I am or someone would have corrected me already) but women have the same rights as men in the Western world. There's still inequality. We should work to eliminate that, I definitely agree, but I think there's not much legislation can do now. The laws already exist.
For the record, I plan to respond more thoughtfully to your posts but just haven't yet had time. But let me say this real quickly:
1. There are some legal rights afforded to men and not to women in the Western world. The first one that comes to my mind is the one that started this whole debate this time around: nudity. Women don't have the same right to go topless in public as men do. (I'm sure I could think of more if I tried.)
2. Even if women had equal rights in the Western world, why does only the Western world count? Millions of women across the globe still don't even have equal rights before the law, and this is just as much what feminism is fighting for as anything.
3. Even if everyone had equal rights before the law in the whole world, there's frequently a huge gap between legality and reality. Feminism is about the struggle for de facto as well as de jure rights.
4. Laws, rights, justice, etc. aside, feminism seeks to break down negative social constructions and gender roles. It seeks to change social attitudes and behaviors so that no one is subject to limiting, socially constructed expectations about the way they should think, feel, & act based solely on their sex. It seeks to create a culture where men don't feel pressured toward violence just as much as it seeks to create a culture where women aren't the victims of violence, for example. One where women don't necessarily need men to fix their cars AND where men don't feel inadequate if they can't fix cars. One where men & women hold doors open for each other equally, out of a basic respect they all deserve as people, rather than out of any false notion that women need help. Et cetera, et cetera...
For the record, I plan to respond more thoughtfully to your posts but just haven't yet had time. But let me say this real quickly:
1. There are some legal rights afforded to men and not to women in the Western world. The first one that comes to my mind is the one that started this whole debate this time around: nudity. Women don't have the same right to go topless in public as men do. (I'm sure I could think of more if I tried.)
Where I live in Ontario Canada, women are legally entitled to go topless as men do.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
to add, I've not ever seen a topless woman (in public! ) in Ontario.
Again, it's natural evolution that prevents us from just waking up in enlightenment one day. Culturally, we're not ready to act and respond totally equally on the topless issue, among others, even though the legislation is in place.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
another example of inner unempowerment that requires personal inner resolution and growth/evolution in order to resolve the problem, independant of external laws:
Domestic abuse. When one is immersed in domestic abuse, ultimately the decision to move on from the abuse comes from within. Often due to long, involved inner processes, often requiring much support.
It generally does not come from an enlightened instant moment (unless following the long involved inner process), or because the law supports it.
Social and cultural norms don't change overnight. They evolve. Patriarchy won't be forced away. Especially given the average woman, and in my opinion, feminist, willfully supports the ways of patriarchy, defending it's necessity!
When a woman is removed from the violence, until she changes her own inner patterns that contributed to the situation, she will continue to attract further abusive situations.
Changing laws is a great step. It's one piece in the puzzle. It's a patriarchal concept to imagine we can force life and natural laws to change for our ego/individual needs.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
For me, the real questions are about how we create an effective interarchy. A social movement. A cultural movement. We're ready for it. Each individual has the power to be a powerful player in this endeavor. AND it is very easy, in that it's aligned with the direction of natural evolution. When flowing with evolution, the fallacies and flaws essentially fall by the wayside, seemingly effortlessly. The real challenge is in raising our own ability and levels of personal empowerment so that we can envision something new, and create. It's a change of mindset for most who look to an institution called 'the law' to create for us when it cannot. It's a change of mindset for those who consider the external power of patriarchy to be authentic empowerment when it is not.
What this movement won't hinge on is:
-separation between men and women, fostering barriers to harmonious integration
-projecting our inner conflicts onto others in any way, especially those we wish to evolve and harmonize with
-force and law
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
From a whole view - from one that considers all the intents and purposes of the entire situation and the big picture, and seeks to resolve them, the splits and separations of either/or (female vs male) ways reveal themselves as flawed.
That which is about separation and division cannot fathom that which is about wholeness and healing. The two aren't even opposites...rather the separation and division is PART of our evolution and wholeness, as we learn by the consequences of our actions, to adapt to our circumstances. This is the one step back that we take in order to progress and work out our own inner unconscous unempowerment. It's all good. The problems come in with the felt pain we experience when we take that step backwards in order to learn the hard way because our awareness will not yet support the comprehensive view.
Given all this, it's easy to see who is working towards resolving the problem, and who is working towards resolving the problem while outletting further conflict in personal evolution.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
to add, I've not ever seen a topless woman (in public! ) in Ontario.
Fuck! I already started packing after reading your first post on this and then I see this one. How disappointing. I was all prepared to move to Ontario and finally settle into a place I could truely call home.
Fuck! I already started packing after reading your first post on this and then I see this one. How disappointing. I was all prepared to move to Ontario and finally settle into a place I could truely call home.
it's always interesting to see a little almost-objectification happening in the feminism threads...
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
For me, the real questions are about how we create an effective interarchy. A social movement. A cultural movement. We're ready for it. Each individual has the power to be a powerful player in this endeavor. AND it is very easy, in that it's aligned with the direction of natural evolution. When flowing with evolution, the fallacies and flaws essentially fall by the wayside, seemingly effortlessly. The real challenge is in raising our own ability and levels of personal empowerment so that we can envision something new, and create. It's a change of mindset for most who look to an institution called 'the law' to create for us when it cannot. It's a change of mindset for those who consider the external power of patriarchy to be authentic empowerment when it is not.
What this movement won't hinge on is:
-separation between men and women, fostering barriers to harmonious integration
-projecting our inner conflicts onto others in any way, especially those we wish to evolve and harmonize with
-force and law
What is it you think you're ready for? I'm sure that whatever it is, I doubt I share the same thoughts. So why dotn you go frist and let me know how it works out for you. Besides if we were ready for it, it'd already be in motion. And if it were as easy as you seem to think also we'd already be doing whatever it is youre gungho about.
What is it you think you're ready for? I'm sure that whatever it is, I doubt I share the same thoughts. So why dotn you go frist and let me know how it works out for you. Besides if we were ready for it, it'd already be in motion. And if it were as easy as you seem to think also we'd already be doing whatever it is youre gungho about.
it's like being a Pearl Jam fan...those who are into it are, and know what it's about....those who are not into them..are not. It's simple stuff. That's the beauty of an interachy.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
it's like being a Pearl Jam fan...those who are into it are, and know what it's about....those who are not into them..are not. It's simple stuff. That's the beauty of an interachy.
Oh please being into pearl jam is not anything like changing the mindset of an entire species. i am totally into pearl jam, but what you speak of is just intangible becuase most people don't give a shit. thye are generally happy with their lot in life and see no reason to change. you say its simple. if it were so simple then we wouldn't be ahving this discussion. good luck though.
Oh please being into pearl jam is not anything like changing the mindset of an entire species. i am totally into pearl jam, but what you speak of is just intangible becuase most people don't give a shit. thye are generally happy with their lot in life and see no reason to change. you say its simple. if it were so simple then we wouldn't be ahving this discussion. good luck though.
Again, it's like Pearl Jam...
they followed their inner vision, doing what they loved. They just happened to also be attuned with a movement that was happening on an evolutionary level. So they get to do what they love, make a difference, and affect millions of people worldwide, dramatically.
It's evolution that creates the movements that empowered individuals - acting on behalf of evolution - bring to the world stage. Like Pearl Jam..those who are empowered, and attuned to what's going on beneath the surface, and who are doing what they feel driven to, and what they love, can influence untold individuals.
Also movements begin way before anyone has any idea that they are movements.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
For the record, I plan to respond more thoughtfully to your posts but just haven't yet had time. But let me say this real quickly:
1. There are some legal rights afforded to men and not to women in the Western world. The first one that comes to my mind is the one that started this whole debate this time around: nudity. Women don't have the same right to go topless in public as men do. (I'm sure I could think of more if I tried.)
Well, like Angelica pointed out it's legal in Ontario and I did a quick search it seems to be legal in many places.
But what do you want? Women having that right or women walking around topless? Like Angelica said, it's legal and women don't walk around topless.
2. Even if women had equal rights in the Western world, why does only the Western world count? Millions of women across the globe still don't even have equal rights before the law, and this is just as much what feminism is fighting for as anything.
I never said only the Western world counts. I'm merely pointing out the injustices of certain feminists in the Western world. You choose to ignore them (?) because feminism is still needed in the world.
4. Laws, rights, justice, etc. aside, feminism seeks to break down negative social constructions and gender roles. It seeks to change social attitudes and behaviors so that no one is subject to limiting, socially constructed expectations about the way they should think, feel, & act based solely on their sex. It seeks to create a culture where men don't feel pressured toward violence just as much as it seeks to create a culture where women aren't the victims of violence, for example. One where women don't necessarily need men to fix their cars AND where men don't feel inadequate if they can't fix cars. One where men & women hold doors open for each other equally, out of a basic respect they all deserve as people, rather than out of any false notion that women need help. Et cetera, et cetera...
Men feel pressured towards violence?
Anyway, woman already don't need men to fix their cars. That is a bogus fight. I don't think anyone is stopping women from fixing their own cars. My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and can definitely fix a car. Why? Not because she fougth against the patriachal society and became a strong woman, no she can do those things because she's interested in them and took classes. How many women do you know that are even interested in fixing cars? That would go to these classes even if they were offered for free? I can't fix a car. I don't feel inadequate. If I want to learn I will, my girlfriend can teach me.
I think at some point feminists will have to accept that men and women are different and will always be different. Guys will be more interested in cars and buildings. Women will be more interested in ballet and caring for stuff. The possibilities are here for both men and women to do what they want. Like I said, my girlfriend took classes to learn how to mend cars. She was the only girl. One of my best friends went to a prestigious ballet school, there were only three guys. I think this comes down to what Angelica said. Some obstacles need to be overcome from within. This guy was ridiculed by other guys but he didn't give a damn. My girlfriend got a lot of rude comments from the guys there, but she decided that it's not because they still have a narrow view on how life should be that she should be a victim of it (of course she didn't say it like that, she said 'fuck 'em. I don't care what they think').
This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind. It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.
Tell me, sc, what exactly would you do to create a world where women can fix cars...? You know women can already choose to do so... So what would you do?
I always hold doors open. Always for men and women. I have never done so because I feel they are helpless. It's just polite. Where did you even get the notion men open doors because they feel women are helpless or need help? Perhaps they just want to get in your pants?
Perhaps it's time to do things instead of complaining. If you want to fix your own car. Take classes. If they tell you you can't follow them because you are a woman, you have a fight to fight and rest assured, if you take it to court you will win.
Well, like Angelica pointed out it's legal in Ontario and I did a quick search it seems to be legal in many places.
But what do you want? Women having that right or women walking around topless? Like Angelica said, it's legal and women don't walk around topless.
I never said only the Western world counts. I'm merely pointing out the injustices of certain feminists in the Western world. You choose to ignore them (?) because feminism is still needed in the world.
Men feel pressured towards violence?
Anyway, woman already don't need men to fix their cars. That is a bogus fight. I don't think anyone is stopping women from fixing their own cars. My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and can definitely fix a car. Why? Not because she fougth against the patriachal society and became a strong woman, no she can do those things because she's interested in them and took classes. How many women do you know that are even interested in fixing cars? That would go to these classes even if they were offered for free? I can't fix a car. I don't feel inadequate. If I want to learn I will, my girlfriend can teach me.
I think at some point feminists will have to accept that men and women are different and will always be different. Guys will be more interested in cars and buildings. Women will be more interested in ballet and caring for stuff. The possibilities are here for both men and women to do what they want. Like I said, my girlfriend took classes to learn how to mend cars. She was the only girl. One of my best friends went to a prestigious ballet school, there were only three guys. I think this comes down to what Angelica said. Some obstacles need to be overcome from within. This guy was ridiculed by other guys but he didn't give a damn. My girlfriend got a lot of rude comments from the guys there, but she decided that it's not because they still have a narrow view on how life should be that she should be a victim of it (of course she didn't say it like that, she said 'fuck 'em. I don't care what they think').
This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind. It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.
Tell me, sc, what exactly would you do to create a world where women can fix cars...? You know women can already choose to do so... So what would you do?
I always hold doors open. Always for men and women. I have never done so because I feel they are helpless. It's just polite. Where did you even get the notion men open doors because they feel women are helpless or need help? Perhaps they just want to get in your pants?
Perhaps it's time to do things instead of complaining. If you want to fix your own car. Take classes. If they tell you you can't follow them because you are a woman, you have a fight to fight and rest assured, if you take it to court you will win.
I was going to sit down today to thoughtfully address your posts and, since you asked about feminism, provide a little Feminism 101. But after reading this, I give up. It's just yet another post from you that makes me feel like you are either incapable of or uninterested in really understanding where feminists are coming from. You seem like a decent, intelligent guy, so I hope you don't take that the wrong way.
Anyway, woman already don't need men to fix their cars. That is a bogus fight. I don't think anyone is stopping women from fixing their own cars. My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and can definitely fix a car. Why? Not because she fougth against the patriachal society and became a strong woman, no she can do those things because she's interested in them and took classes. How many women do you know that are even interested in fixing cars? That would go to these classes even if they were offered for free? I can't fix a car. I don't feel inadequate. If I want to learn I will, my girlfriend can teach me.
I think at some point feminists will have to accept that men and women are different and will always be different. Guys will be more interested in cars and buildings. Women will be more interested in ballet and caring for stuff. The possibilities are here for both men and women to do what they want. Like I said, my girlfriend took classes to learn how to mend cars. She was the only girl. One of my best friends went to a prestigious ballet school, there were only three guys. I think this comes down to what Angelica said. Some obstacles need to be overcome from within. This guy was ridiculed by other guys but he didn't give a damn. My girlfriend got a lot of rude comments from the guys there, but she decided that it's not because they still have a narrow view on how life should be that she should be a victim of it (of course she didn't say it like that, she said 'fuck 'em. I don't care what they think').
This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind. It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.
Tell me, sc, what exactly would you do to create a world where women can fix cars...? You know women can already choose to do so... So what would you do?
I always hold doors open. Always for men and women. I have never done so because I feel they are helpless. It's just polite. Where did you even get the notion men open doors because they feel women are helpless or need help? Perhaps they just want to get in your pants?
Perhaps it's time to do things instead of complaining. If you want to fix your own car. Take classes. If they tell you you can't follow them because you are a woman, you have a fight to fight and rest assured, if you take it to court you will win.
mechanics fix cars. male or female. id like to be able to fix a major problem with some type of machinery, but ive learnt that there are people who are more disposed to such activity than i am. i dont find it empowering to be able to fix machinery. i find it more empowering that i can admit i have a deficiency in this field and need to seek out professional help to fix the problem.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind.
it is a fight from within AND from the outside as well. truly, i would think most would understand that. the ideas begin within, and collectively as many believe and agree on these ideas...they begin to process and work towards the change on the outside. if people/women didn't...the right to vote, the right to make your own choices, the right to make decisions for your own body, etc...never would've happened.
and hello...yes, a good part of it IS about 'changing people's minds'...their perceptions....etc. all the work for equality, not just for women, but equality and anti-discrimination in general, ALL about changing people's peceptions.
It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.
again, it is and it isn't. no one chooses to be a victim, but sometimes there ARe victims, and certainly not b/c they chose it, but simply b/c they are. i DO understand your point, and overall i do agree with the 'not letting yourself being a victim mentality'...but i ALSO know sometimes there is no choice in it.
as to the whole male/female perspectives, again....whaqt holds true for the majorty doesn't mean a minority aren't interested...and i agree, all should choose their own way, their likes/dislikes...and yes....both genders need to feel and work towards acceptance. i do agree however, there is no need to push such...people can make their own choices, and do, and that's as it should be.
here's a few things that i believe are on the feminst agenda of today:
as of right now in the US, many, many health plans do NOT cover the cost of BC pills, yet cover the cost of viagra. this leaves many women in a difficult situation b/c for many, BC pills are the best option for their reproductive control, yet can be prohibitvely expensive to buy monthly w/o a prescription plan that covers a good portion of the cost. many, many feminists agree this is an important issue and are fighting to get HMOs to cover BC pills in ther prescription plans.
perhaps about a year ago, i think, there was talk of health insurance companies not covering overnight hospital stays for women who just underwent mastectomies. there was a petition drive and awareness campaign to pressure health insurance companies to cover at least a 2 day hospital stay, as on average, is recommended by doctors.
these are just 2 examples off the top of my head, both of a medical nature, and yet still definitely 'women's issues'...and thus of great interest to many feminists. these are just 2 of many ideas that women work towards changing/securing, for all women. it's great to say change comes from within, obstacles overcome from within...a fight from within. on many levels, you're right...it IS. but on important legislative/health issues, it's a fight for larger society and it can and should be dealt with on a large-scale level. a woman just undergoing a mastectomy, a difficult obstacle to overcome as it is, should not feel she has to battle her HMO alone to get the proper care she deserves, that doctors recommend, etc. same thing with BC. many, many groups/individuals fight to reverse roe vs. wade, to chip away at women's access and choices for BC in general, etc. one can try to alter public perception of such, one can work to ensure access for all women, etc. it is not simply an individual battle, or it shouldn't be imo anyway. thus why feminism as an ideal is still quite relevant and necessary.
I was going to sit down today to thoughtfully address your posts and, since you asked about feminism, provide a little Feminism 101. But after reading this, I give up. It's just yet another post from you that makes me feel like you are either incapable of or uninterested in really understanding where feminists are coming from. You seem like a decent, intelligent guy, so I hope you don't take that the wrong way.
I am interested and I'm certainly capable of understanding. But I don't understand certain things. I don't understand how you can fight for a world in which women can be car mechanics. That world exists, you live in it.
I don't understand feminists who bitch about equal pay and then demand that female tennis players should get the same as their male colleagues.
I don't understand why feminists support unfair programmes like Title IX. I don't understand how other feminists claim it doesn't have to be unfair yet they don't do anything about it. I mean if you're pushing for something like this to create justice and you know it's currently unjust, do something about it!
And you can tell me the history of feminism. You can explain to me problems women face today... I'll understand them and chances are I'll already know about them...
But these are issues I don't understand. But they're dismissed as obscure examples.
I also think some feminists simply can't accept the fact that life is unfair. It's unfair whether you are a man or a woman, black or white. Yes, sometimes a man will get a job that should have gone to the female candidate because she was more competent but I wouldn't automatically call that sexism. This happens all the time to women and men. And I can think of many little examples like that...
Comments
so then why put pregnant women in the same category as carers and other 'special leave' takers?
I'd definitely support that.
But then we have the feminists who don't... Complaining about female tennis players not earning as much as their male colleagues, while it's quite obvious that female tennis players only work three fifths of what the men do. I say equal pay = equal play.
It's like a man and a woman doing the same job, but the man works five days and the woman only works three yet the feminists seem to think that this woman should get the same pay as that man.
Equal pay for equal work, my ass.
These are the things I'm talking about... but these are obscure examples, right?
:rolleyes:
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True
It seems to me this group is the most influential and vocal one...
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you're not wrong of course.
except for this one point: yes legislation does exist, however, there are those who continually try to chip away at these rights, alter these laws...so sadly it is at least for the forseeable future, something that must always be monitored so these laws and rights are NOT taken away. and new developments especially in regards to reporductive rights come up as science allows, and again, always need to encsure the legislation to ensure access.
anyhoo, my 'point' of discussing legislation was simply b/c another post mentioned that such things can't be legislated, that it comes from within or whatever else...and simply pointing out that YES indeed it can and is legislated, and should be. and we as a collective society should always work towards such.
and you are of course, as anyone, free to believe what you want, and work against such injustices if you desire. i don't think i ever referred to a 'minority' within the feminist movement. i think i simply mentioned there ARE 'extremists' in all groups. the old the squeaky whell gets the grease'. i think there is a very large, rather silent majority within the feminsts. i DO consider myself a feminist, why wouldn't i? i am absolutely FOR equal rights for women and will ALWAYs support such. i will not, however, support reverse discrimination, and there ARE some things feminists as a group have worked towards that i disagree with. bound to happen. am i a very vocal feminist? no. my voice is heard in the voters booth, when i always choose to support candidates who support women's rights. my voice is heard when there are petitions to sign to ensure laws protecting women stay active, etc. however, i am not out there pounding the pavement.
again, you are right...there ARE feminists who go too far, and i think i expressed my agreement with that stance in an earlier post. however, overall, i STILL support the ideas and ideals of feminism and always will. just b/c there may be a faction fighting for feminist issues i disagree with does not mean i completely discount feminism, nor end my support to ideals, overall that i DO believe in.
forgiveness is unnecessary.
as you said earlier, i think the 'big work' of feminism has come and gone....to me, it's more for mantainence and insuring said freedoms. there ARE still some key issues to be improved upon and/or some new ideas to be enacted or enforced, and yes, through legislation...but overall, i don't see myself as a part of a movement, more along the lines of a belief system.
and of course...i agree.
equal rights are equal rights, for all. that is the ideal. some may not work towards such in a manner i agree with, but i try and support those who DO best represent my beliefs and desires.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
can't speak for others of course, but for myself i am the 'kind' of feminist who believes in the pure ideals of feminism, the basic rights of women to have control over their own minds and bodies, and TRUE equality between genders in the workplace and in the home. that's it. i am not out to 'get' men, to create a new, yet still unfair system, i am not a man-hater, not in the least!
as a woman, i cannot imagine myself NOT identifying as feminist. i know it's become a militant dirty word to many, but in it's purest form...it's a beautiful and powerful thing, or it should be. a feminist is someone who supports equal rights between the genders and works towards women's inidivudal rights. of course i support equal rights for ALL, and am against inequalities based on ANY criteria such as culture, religion, gender, etc. however, as i said, as a woman to me it's a no-brainer to self-identify as a feminist. it almost seems odd to me to imagine a woman who would not...b/c why wouldn't someone want equal rights for themselves amongst society?
and, once again...you're probably right.
*late edit - just an aside to Jeanie.....exactly!
the whole unfair pay/hiring practices based on women and their reproduction, etc...that's the whole POINT about the 'freedoms' involved with BC. thruout history women's lives have been completely ruled by their lack of choice/control over their own reproduction and it DID have many, many adverse/negative consequences. there can be, and IS, balance between the freedom/control of BC AND having a family if you so desire. to me, that is the BEAUTY of it, and it benefits women and society as a whole imho.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
My question is that as women overcome and achieve beyond great odds, given all the mulitiple variables in life, will they want to even the playing field for others? Will they believe it's even possible? After all, evolution is in place for reasons. It doesn't give us a pass on anything really, when striving for our dreams. Myself, I certainly believe in doing what I can to support others, and to make sure the rules are fair (as Collin pointed out they generally are in North America). And still, that leaves the evolution aspect, of life challenges, which I personally embrace.
also, you said:
Collin (and I) made this point over and over in the last feminism thread:
Often feminist actions ask that women are given positions due to their gender, rather than merit (affirmative action), and call it "fair", which is perceived as a contradiction - and one that undermines the original point - by many.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
For the record, I plan to respond more thoughtfully to your posts but just haven't yet had time. But let me say this real quickly:
1. There are some legal rights afforded to men and not to women in the Western world. The first one that comes to my mind is the one that started this whole debate this time around: nudity. Women don't have the same right to go topless in public as men do. (I'm sure I could think of more if I tried.)
2. Even if women had equal rights in the Western world, why does only the Western world count? Millions of women across the globe still don't even have equal rights before the law, and this is just as much what feminism is fighting for as anything.
3. Even if everyone had equal rights before the law in the whole world, there's frequently a huge gap between legality and reality. Feminism is about the struggle for de facto as well as de jure rights.
4. Laws, rights, justice, etc. aside, feminism seeks to break down negative social constructions and gender roles. It seeks to change social attitudes and behaviors so that no one is subject to limiting, socially constructed expectations about the way they should think, feel, & act based solely on their sex. It seeks to create a culture where men don't feel pressured toward violence just as much as it seeks to create a culture where women aren't the victims of violence, for example. One where women don't necessarily need men to fix their cars AND where men don't feel inadequate if they can't fix cars. One where men & women hold doors open for each other equally, out of a basic respect they all deserve as people, rather than out of any false notion that women need help. Et cetera, et cetera...
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Again, it's natural evolution that prevents us from just waking up in enlightenment one day. Culturally, we're not ready to act and respond totally equally on the topless issue, among others, even though the legislation is in place.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Domestic abuse. When one is immersed in domestic abuse, ultimately the decision to move on from the abuse comes from within. Often due to long, involved inner processes, often requiring much support.
It generally does not come from an enlightened instant moment (unless following the long involved inner process), or because the law supports it.
Social and cultural norms don't change overnight. They evolve. Patriarchy won't be forced away. Especially given the average woman, and in my opinion, feminist, willfully supports the ways of patriarchy, defending it's necessity!
When a woman is removed from the violence, until she changes her own inner patterns that contributed to the situation, she will continue to attract further abusive situations.
Changing laws is a great step. It's one piece in the puzzle. It's a patriarchal concept to imagine we can force life and natural laws to change for our ego/individual needs.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What this movement won't hinge on is:
-separation between men and women, fostering barriers to harmonious integration
-projecting our inner conflicts onto others in any way, especially those we wish to evolve and harmonize with
-force and law
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That which is about separation and division cannot fathom that which is about wholeness and healing. The two aren't even opposites...rather the separation and division is PART of our evolution and wholeness, as we learn by the consequences of our actions, to adapt to our circumstances. This is the one step back that we take in order to progress and work out our own inner unconscous unempowerment. It's all good. The problems come in with the felt pain we experience when we take that step backwards in order to learn the hard way because our awareness will not yet support the comprehensive view.
Given all this, it's easy to see who is working towards resolving the problem, and who is working towards resolving the problem while outletting further conflict in personal evolution.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Fuck! I already started packing after reading your first post on this and then I see this one. How disappointing. I was all prepared to move to Ontario and finally settle into a place I could truely call home.
it's always interesting to see a little almost-objectification happening in the feminism threads...
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What is it you think you're ready for? I'm sure that whatever it is, I doubt I share the same thoughts. So why dotn you go frist and let me know how it works out for you. Besides if we were ready for it, it'd already be in motion. And if it were as easy as you seem to think also we'd already be doing whatever it is youre gungho about.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Oh please being into pearl jam is not anything like changing the mindset of an entire species. i am totally into pearl jam, but what you speak of is just intangible becuase most people don't give a shit. thye are generally happy with their lot in life and see no reason to change. you say its simple. if it were so simple then we wouldn't be ahving this discussion. good luck though.
they followed their inner vision, doing what they loved. They just happened to also be attuned with a movement that was happening on an evolutionary level. So they get to do what they love, make a difference, and affect millions of people worldwide, dramatically.
It's evolution that creates the movements that empowered individuals - acting on behalf of evolution - bring to the world stage. Like Pearl Jam..those who are empowered, and attuned to what's going on beneath the surface, and who are doing what they feel driven to, and what they love, can influence untold individuals.
Also movements begin way before anyone has any idea that they are movements.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Well, like Angelica pointed out it's legal in Ontario and I did a quick search it seems to be legal in many places.
But what do you want? Women having that right or women walking around topless? Like Angelica said, it's legal and women don't walk around topless.
I never said only the Western world counts. I'm merely pointing out the injustices of certain feminists in the Western world. You choose to ignore them (?) because feminism is still needed in the world.
Men feel pressured towards violence?
Anyway, woman already don't need men to fix their cars. That is a bogus fight. I don't think anyone is stopping women from fixing their own cars. My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and can definitely fix a car. Why? Not because she fougth against the patriachal society and became a strong woman, no she can do those things because she's interested in them and took classes. How many women do you know that are even interested in fixing cars? That would go to these classes even if they were offered for free? I can't fix a car. I don't feel inadequate. If I want to learn I will, my girlfriend can teach me.
I think at some point feminists will have to accept that men and women are different and will always be different. Guys will be more interested in cars and buildings. Women will be more interested in ballet and caring for stuff. The possibilities are here for both men and women to do what they want. Like I said, my girlfriend took classes to learn how to mend cars. She was the only girl. One of my best friends went to a prestigious ballet school, there were only three guys. I think this comes down to what Angelica said. Some obstacles need to be overcome from within. This guy was ridiculed by other guys but he didn't give a damn. My girlfriend got a lot of rude comments from the guys there, but she decided that it's not because they still have a narrow view on how life should be that she should be a victim of it (of course she didn't say it like that, she said 'fuck 'em. I don't care what they think').
This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind. It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.
Tell me, sc, what exactly would you do to create a world where women can fix cars...? You know women can already choose to do so... So what would you do?
I always hold doors open. Always for men and women. I have never done so because I feel they are helpless. It's just polite. Where did you even get the notion men open doors because they feel women are helpless or need help? Perhaps they just want to get in your pants?
Perhaps it's time to do things instead of complaining. If you want to fix your own car. Take classes. If they tell you you can't follow them because you are a woman, you have a fight to fight and rest assured, if you take it to court you will win.
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I was going to sit down today to thoughtfully address your posts and, since you asked about feminism, provide a little Feminism 101. But after reading this, I give up. It's just yet another post from you that makes me feel like you are either incapable of or uninterested in really understanding where feminists are coming from. You seem like a decent, intelligent guy, so I hope you don't take that the wrong way.
what kind of dumbarse palce makes a special rule for it actually to be legal for women to walk around topless? who passed this rule?
mechanics fix cars. male or female. id like to be able to fix a major problem with some type of machinery, but ive learnt that there are people who are more disposed to such activity than i am. i dont find it empowering to be able to fix machinery. i find it more empowering that i can admit i have a deficiency in this field and need to seek out professional help to fix the problem.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
it is a fight from within AND from the outside as well. truly, i would think most would understand that. the ideas begin within, and collectively as many believe and agree on these ideas...they begin to process and work towards the change on the outside. if people/women didn't...the right to vote, the right to make your own choices, the right to make decisions for your own body, etc...never would've happened.
and hello...yes, a good part of it IS about 'changing people's minds'...their perceptions....etc. all the work for equality, not just for women, but equality and anti-discrimination in general, ALL about changing people's peceptions.
again, it is and it isn't. no one chooses to be a victim, but sometimes there ARe victims, and certainly not b/c they chose it, but simply b/c they are. i DO understand your point, and overall i do agree with the 'not letting yourself being a victim mentality'...but i ALSO know sometimes there is no choice in it.
as to the whole male/female perspectives, again....whaqt holds true for the majorty doesn't mean a minority aren't interested...and i agree, all should choose their own way, their likes/dislikes...and yes....both genders need to feel and work towards acceptance. i do agree however, there is no need to push such...people can make their own choices, and do, and that's as it should be.
here's a few things that i believe are on the feminst agenda of today:
as of right now in the US, many, many health plans do NOT cover the cost of BC pills, yet cover the cost of viagra.
perhaps about a year ago, i think, there was talk of health insurance companies not covering overnight hospital stays for women who just underwent mastectomies. there was a petition drive and awareness campaign to pressure health insurance companies to cover at least a 2 day hospital stay, as on average, is recommended by doctors.
these are just 2 examples off the top of my head, both of a medical nature, and yet still definitely 'women's issues'...and thus of great interest to many feminists. these are just 2 of many ideas that women work towards changing/securing, for all women. it's great to say change comes from within, obstacles overcome from within...a fight from within. on many levels, you're right...it IS. but on important legislative/health issues, it's a fight for larger society and it can and should be dealt with on a large-scale level. a woman just undergoing a mastectomy, a difficult obstacle to overcome as it is, should not feel she has to battle her HMO alone to get the proper care she deserves, that doctors recommend, etc. same thing with BC. many, many groups/individuals fight to reverse roe vs. wade, to chip away at women's access and choices for BC in general, etc. one can try to alter public perception of such, one can work to ensure access for all women, etc. it is not simply an individual battle, or it shouldn't be imo anyway. thus why feminism as an ideal is still quite relevant and necessary.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
the above statement is incorrect and makes no sense.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yer mom makes no sense
-Enoch Powell
ooh what a zinger. im scorched. go back to junior high. :rolleyes:
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I am interested and I'm certainly capable of understanding. But I don't understand certain things. I don't understand how you can fight for a world in which women can be car mechanics. That world exists, you live in it.
I don't understand feminists who bitch about equal pay and then demand that female tennis players should get the same as their male colleagues.
I don't understand why feminists support unfair programmes like Title IX. I don't understand how other feminists claim it doesn't have to be unfair yet they don't do anything about it. I mean if you're pushing for something like this to create justice and you know it's currently unjust, do something about it!
And you can tell me the history of feminism. You can explain to me problems women face today... I'll understand them and chances are I'll already know about them...
But these are issues I don't understand. But they're dismissed as obscure examples.
I also think some feminists simply can't accept the fact that life is unfair. It's unfair whether you are a man or a woman, black or white. Yes, sometimes a man will get a job that should have gone to the female candidate because she was more competent but I wouldn't automatically call that sexism. This happens all the time to women and men. And I can think of many little examples like that...
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