Feminism...

Collin

... ain't what it used to be.

It is my opinion that feminism has turned into an ugly caricature of what it once was.

I feel bad for the feminists who do seem to have the right idea and spirit and I support their goals.

Let the battle begin.





edit: no women allowed

CityMouse

there are a lot of different schools of feminist thought, as far as I know.

pjoasisrule

How many feminists do you think would agree to be entered in a draft if we ever had one again (god forbid)?

_

Collin wrote:

... ain't what it used to be.

It is my opinion that feminism has turned into an ugly caricature of what it once was.

I feel bad for the feminists who do seem to have the right idea and spirit and I support their goals.

Let the battle begin.





edit: no women allowed

What are you suggesting it once was & what are you suggesting it is now? Edit to add: And how do you know?

CityMouse

pjoasisrule wrote:

How many feminists do you think would agree to be entered in a draft if we ever had one again (god forbid)?

how many men do you think would agree to be entered into the draft.

pjoasisrule

CityMouse wrote:

how many men do you think would agree to be entered into the draft.

touche

failedpersephone

hahahahaaa...woah way to be General Von Vague!!! (you may know her nemesis, Captain Obvious)

first off some parameters for this discussion please...


and second, I find it amusing that the first shout out is to "the draft" hahahaa

equal treatment means not better and not worse...but THE SAME.

and feminism isn't always about EQUAL it is sometimes (at least one school of thought) given a bit of Pro-female boost...that is a level of superiority is associated...but not all feminist feel that way.

this of course is very rudimentary - considering that you didn't give any parameters to this ...

and we arent even talking about sexual exploitation/sexuality and socialized norms...yet

Brain of J.Lo

oh boy. here we go.

CityMouse

failedpersephone wrote:

and we arent even talking about sexual exploitation/sexuality and socialized norms...yet

this is more of what i think of as the role of feminism.
but as I said there are a few different schools of thought on all of the issues.

eyedclaar

My definition of feminism is that when I'm attacked by a gang of mixed gender ninjas, I get to punch and kick the ladies as hard as I punch and kick the men.

Collin

scb wrote:

What are you suggesting it once was & what are you suggesting it is now?

It started out as a movement that fought for the rights of women and equality. Now it's become feminazism. It's become a misandric movement.

Like I said, there's a distinction to be made, perhaps the rather ridiculous term feminazism is suitable here.

Read the wikipedia entry on antifeminism. I certainly don't agree with all of it but I agree with some points made.

EvilMerlin

The fact that we still have to have feminist groups is what's sad today.

I noticed the 'draft' position was already pulled.

I'm surprised nobody pulled the, "well if a group of guys got together for males, we'd all get shit on and called sexist and it'd be wrong" position too.

Surely some take it farther than others, but sometimes you have to go a couple steps farther to get back to your settling ground of what is right.

Cree Nations

I cant stand those hardcore, man bashing feminists who want to believe men are the problem for everything. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and women were treatled as equals and then some. Feminism does have its place though.

CityMouse

Collin wrote:

It started out as a movement that fought for the rights of women and equality. Now it's become feminazism. It's become a misandric movement.

not necessarily. I have to say I've never met a real misandric feminist. Most feminists are just concerned with equality issues, mostly related to social stigmas, sexuality, etc.

Collin

CityMouse wrote:

not necessarily. I have to say I've never met a real misandric feminist. Most feminists are just concerned with equality issues, mostly related to social stigmas, sexuality, etc.

Well, I have. And no scb, I'm not talking about you (yet)

_

Collin wrote:

It started out as a movement that fought for the rights of women and equality. Now it's become feminazism. It's become a misandric movement.

And why do you, who are not a feminist, feel that you are qualified to represent what the feminist movement is about?

_

Cree Nations wrote:

I cant stand those hardcore, man bashing feminists who want to believe men are the problem for everything. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and women were treatled as equals and then some. Feminism does have its place though.

If women are treated as equals, what is the place of feminism?

_

Collin wrote:

Well, I have. And no scb, I'm not talking about you (yet)

You probably will be before this is over - but you'll be wrong.

Cree Nations

scb wrote:

If women are treated as equals, what is the place of feminism?

Women, in my opinion have a ways to go before they are treated as equals....agree for sure there. Femisim, as I stated, does indeed have its place in time, what form it takes...time will tell. My comment was on the hardcore feminists whom I see as detrimental to the overall feminist movement.

I have to go do the dishes now....lata!

edit: I implied that during my time, I have treated women as equals, I do not agree that society as a whole though treats woman as equals although there is a big difference between the status of a woman in the fifties vs. the present.

Collin

scb wrote:

And why do you, who are not a feminist, feel that you are qualified to represent what the feminist movement is about?

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

failedpersephone

Collin wrote:

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

well it's good to see that we are all getting bogged down in the semantics of the question and not the actuality of the movements.

feminazi is a term coined by Rush Limbaugh to heat up his limited-educated base against the idea that women are the SAME as men, Not Equal...and thus the idea of man haters was born.

riffrandall

Collin wrote:

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

I went to Smith.
While this does not automatically qualify me as an expert on feminism, it certainly gives me a leg up over- say, a guy shooting from the hip.

Feminism is not about Femi-nazi-ism (although great use of a term- nazi- that is blisteringly offensive to a good portion of the populace). Feminism in its true form is about being a strong woman and feeling as though you have a right to be treated the same way as men. Same jobs, same pay, same treatment in society.. the whole 9. And yes, that would include same eligibility for the draft.
Should women be in combat? Hmm.. well, lets ask our partners in the Israeli Army, see what they say.

Feminists get a bad rap because people see them as threatening & also crazy because of a few throughout history. They associate them with the 'burn the bra' women of the 70s- which I have to say I don't understand- if I ever burned my bra I would look ridiculous.

Danimal

I think women should be able to vote. Until that happens, this world is just an unfair place.

_

Collin wrote:

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

What I don't understand is, how can one not agree with feminists' definition of feminism? You can say your observations of their actions don't seem to align with their stated beliefs. But you can't tell someone else the purpose of their own movement.

I see what you're saying about disagreement among feminists, but that is resolved by having different schools of feminist thought. Plus, I think there is more room to bicker about purpose or strategy or whatever from within a movement. But how can someone who's not on a certain team claim to know more about that team and their strategy than the actual members?

_

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

angelica

scb wrote:

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

I'm not much big on using patriarchal ways to affect change, since I see it as throwing fuel on the fire of patriarchy.

As long as one in four of our female children are being sexually assaulted, we've definitely got some big problems!

I do hear you about the frustration trying to show people something they are unwilling to see!

stonedponey

angelica wrote:

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

I'm not much big on using patriarchal ways to affect change, since I see it as throwing fuel on the fire of patriarchy.

As long as one in four of our female children are being sexually assaulted, we've definitely got some big problems!

I do hear you about the frustration trying to show people something they are unwilling to see!

well how democratic of you to include men in the objectification. it truly concerns me deeply how men are held up as mere sex objects and that that is how their worth is measured. poor poor men. how ever will thye cope with this unjust attitude towards them.

Collin

scb wrote:

What I don't understand is, how can one not agree with feminists' definition of feminism?

You read the definition or definitions and compare that with the actions. If their actions don't align with said definition I have no other choice but to conclude that definition is wrong.

You can say your observations of their actions don't seem to align with their stated beliefs.

Yes, that would be disagreeing.

But you can't tell someone else the purpose of their own movement.

Of course, I can. I have a right to express my opinion. And like I already said, this doesn't mean I'm right.

I see what you're saying about disagreement among feminists, but that is resolved by having different schools of feminist thought. Plus, I think there is more room to bicker about purpose or strategy or whatever from within a movement. But how can someone who's not on a certain team claim to know more about that team and their strategy than the actual members?

Did I claim to know more about feminism or their strategy? I don't think so. I offered my opinion.

The only thing I have done here is give my opinion. And that's not even allowed because I'm not a feminist? So only feminists can have an opinion about feminism?

How can we have a discussion about feminism if I'm not allowed to express my views about it?

Collin

angelica wrote:

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

It sounds like you're saying that men and women are being objectified because we've been taught to think like men, or we've been stimulated to use our "male" intelligence. Or that we're oblvious to it because of the same reason.

And if a person sees the objectification it is because he uses his 'feminine' intelligence.

That is a valid view, Angelica. But I disagree.

Collin

scb wrote:

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

Now you are doing the exact same thing I did, but was not allowed to do: expressing an opinion about a group you are not a member of.

Note that I said in the very beginning of this thread that what I said did not count for every feminist.

But I will address the things you said instead of saying you can't express your opinion.

Sometimes I indeed don't see what the fuss is about and sometimes I do.
Sometimes I indeed think feminists see injustice where it doesn't exist. Sometimes there is justice, but that's not enough they support affirmative action, for example. And sometimes there is injustice towards women.
I know women are being objectified. But you'll have to elaborate on that one before I can comment.
I think some issues are individual matters.

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just because you don't see the injustice feminists support, the hypocrisy of feminists... doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've seen it and I can't pretend it's not there. And as a man, I sometimes find it difficult to show feminists things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see.

I am not talking about all feminists, I acknowledge that there are feminists who are not hypocritical or don't support injustice, imo, and who are willing to have a debate about it and are open to view other people's opinions.

surfanddestroy

I am a female and to be honest feminists tent to bug me (not always, just sometimes) In my experience I have always been treated equal to men, i can have the same jobs get paid the same wage etc.
I find it kind of degrading for women to constantly be rude and obnoxious to men for doing nice things for them, I have seen men offer to help carry things and the woman will bite his head of because they dont need help or they dont need someone to open the door for them. Maybe he is just trying to be nice.
I am not saying that all feminists are like this, and I do agree with some of the things feminists are fighting for but we musn't forget that as women we do get some rights that men dont.