Why should a physician working for the federal gov't make less than those in the private sector. That physician is taking care of our veterans. How is that wasteful?
It is certainly not wasteful for a physician to treat a veteran. What is wasteful is if that physician is being paid more than market salary. But that physician isn't really what people are talking about when they are talking about a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy. It is the 251 support staff that file paperwork and try to decipher regulations and forms that that physician has to fill out that is the problem. And if they are being paid higher than market wages simply because they "put in their time" on the grade scale and have now been bumped up, that is a problem.
How do their jobs require less risk? You need to shadow me in one of our level 3 laboratories.
I think you have a different understanding of my use of "risk". I'm not talking about physical risk. I believe there are many physical risks associated with working in level 3 labs. My use of the word relates to taking personal risks and being rewarded. Many, many bureaucratic government jobs are considered "safe" - meaning that if you show up, do your job, go home, show up again tomorrow, etc... you'll always have a job within the government and you'll continue to be bumped in pay grade.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I guess I'm a little surprised that isn't a 'given' there, like it is where I am. Government employees here notoriously have better security, great benefits and a better than average wage.
My point - why should that be a given? What is that so easily and readily accepted? That is the problem.
As for how soulsinging sees their roles, are you referring to the fact that he thinks that it is correct that such employees don't dictate policy to the government?
I think everyone should agree that employees don't dictate policy. To think otherwise would be silly. But he was simply using extreme mischaracterisation to attempt to make a point. He can't see how individual employees can make individual contributions to their daily work - within the scope of their positions - to make their jobs, and the companies/organizations better or more efficient. That is the disconnect.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
My point - why should that be a given? What is that so easily and readily accepted? That is the problem.
Isn't it like a business who wants to attract the best in representation of themselves? They need to be willing to back that up with money? I would guess that the government would be aware of base psychological theories on the go, moreso than the average business owner, and thusly understand the ways to optimize their human resources. Which is not to say there is not a lot of human error along the way.
I think everyone should agree that employees don't dictate policy. To think otherwise would be silly. But he was simply using extreme mischaracterisation to attempt to make a point. He can't see how individual employees can make individual contributions to their daily work - within the scope of their positions - to make their jobs, and the companies/organizations better or more efficient. That is the disconnect.
Hey, you're exposing one of soulsinging's most trusty strategies! I agreed with what soulsinging was saying in general, but it can't hurt that you've rounded it out to make it a bit more realistic.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It is certainly not wasteful for a physician to treat a veteran. What is wasteful is if that physician is being paid more than market salary. But that physician isn't really what people are talking about when they are talking about a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy. It is the 251 support staff that file paperwork and try to decipher regulations and forms that that physician has to fill out that is the problem. And if they are being paid higher than market wages simply because they "put in their time" on the grade scale and have now been bumped up, that is a problem.
I absolutely agree with you here. I deal with clerks that fit your description. I had one the other day try to dictate to me when she was going to fill out a form that was required before proceeding with a life-saving procedure. She had other things to do like surf the net and talk on the phone. She is like what you described above. Her supervisor never held her accountable, so she was eventually demoted after this incident. But, you can not paint all federal employees with the same brush. That's all I was pointing out.
BTW, a professional federal employee's salary is either at or just below market place. The Feds can NOT purposely pay us more than market. However, it does happen in the medical field when the surrounding private institutions cut out cost of living increases and merit increases, which is what has happened in my neck of the woods.
I think you have a different understanding of my use of "risk". I'm not talking about physical risk. I believe there are many physical risks associated with working in level 3 labs. My use of the word relates to taking personal risks and being rewarded. Many, many bureaucratic government jobs are considered "safe" - meaning that if you show up, do your job, go home, show up again tomorrow, etc... you'll always have a job within the government and you'll continue to be bumped in pay grade.
I know what you are saying here and, yes, I pretty much would have to shoot someone in the face to be 'let go'. I might add that the bump in 'pay grade' isn't all that great and once you reach the top of the scale you're stuck. It will be another 3 years before I advance on that scale, and when I do, I will be capped out. I also make too much to 'qualify' for overtime (I get about $.50 more an hour). I will, however, receive cost of living increases which usually match the market place 'merit' increase. So really there are perks and irritations to a federal position.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Isn't it like a business who wants to attract the best in representation of themselves?
And with this we come full circle back to ffg's original post. Gov't isn't a business. It isn't run like a business. They don't have "customers' in the sense that there is choice. They don't have to provide any level of "customer" service, since there is no fear that the "customer" will take their "business" elsewhere. It is not a business.
Hey, you're exposing one of soulsinging's most trusty strategies! I agreed with what soulsinging was saying in general, but it can't hurt that you've rounded it out to make it a bit more realistic.
I guess my point was that I don't want to see a pencil pushing government bureaucrat (I know they aren't all that way!) paid at a better (non-market) rate than someone taking a risk in an innovating company. Someone who is trying everyday to make a difference for themselves, for their company, and perhaps for the people who benefit from their product/service.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I absolutely agree with you here. I deal with clerks that fit your description. I had one the other day try to dictate to me when she was going to fill out a form that was required before proceeding with a life-saving procedure. She had other things to do like surf the net and talk on the phone. She is like what you described above. Her supervisor never held her accountable, so she was eventually demoted after this incident. But, you can not paint all federal employees with the same brush. That's all I was pointing out.
BTW, a professional federal employee's salary is either at or just below market place. The Feds can NOT purposely pay us more than market. However, it does happen in the medical field when the surrounding private institutions cut out cost of living increases and merit increases, which is what has happened in my neck of the woods.
The clerk that you mentioned in the first paragraph here reminds me of a story I heard here. Except the clerk was promoted after many of these incidents just so that they could get her out of that office without getting sued for some sort of discrimination. This woman didn't do anything horrible. She just refused to do anything at all except surf the internet, talk to her friends on the phone and walk around spreading gossip when she wasn't on her 95 minute lunch break or half hour afternoon break.
And with this we come full circle back to ffg's original post. Gov't isn't a business. It isn't run like a business. They don't have "customers' in the sense that there is choice. They don't have to provide any level of "customer" service, since there is no fear that the "customer" will take their "business" elsewhere. It is not a business.
This isn't completely true. A veteran with means can absolutely take his business to another hospital. We have to remain competitive and provide healthcare on par with the market place. The jobs healthcare professionals do for the VAs in our country are no different than what is being done in the private sector. I know what you are saying, but this doesn't apply across the board for all gov't employees.
I guess my point was that I don't want to see a pencil pushing government bureaucrat (I know they aren't all that way!) paid at a better (non-market) rate than someone taking a risk in an innovating company. Someone who is trying everyday to make a difference for themselves, for their company, and perhaps for the people who benefit from their product/service.
When one takes a risk with an 'innovated' company, they usually do not receive much in the beginning, it's the potential payoff in the end. Federal employees will never become billionaires, but someone with a start up business who makes sacrifices might. It all shakes out in the end.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
And with this we come full circle back to ffg's original post. Gov't isn't a business. It isn't run like a business. They don't have "customers' in the sense that there is choice. They don't have to provide any level of "customer" service, since there is no fear that the "customer" will take their "business" elsewhere. It is not a business.
I'm a hyper literal person. I did say 'like' a business. Do you think the government does not wish to attract the best that they can to represent them? You do not understand that mindset for a government? And we may be talking about very different things here, in that I refer to the Canadian goverment which is different. And I for sure don't understand all those differences.
I guess my point was that I don't want to see a pencil pushing government bureaucrat (I know they aren't all that way!) paid at a better (non-market) rate than someone taking a risk in an innovating company. Someone who is trying everyday to make a difference for themselves, for their company, and perhaps for the people who benefit from their product/service.
That's understandable. I personally fully understand why a government is wishing to attract at a higher than average level, and that they would understand how important it is to keep their employees happy so as to ensure reasonbly good representation.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The clerk that you mentioned in the first paragraph here reminds me of a story I heard here. Except the clerk was promoted after many of these incidents just so that they could get her out of that office without getting sued for some sort of discrimination. This woman didn't do anything horrible. She just refused to do anything at all except surf the internet, talk to her friends on the phone and walk around spreading gossip when she wasn't on her 95 minute lunch break or half hour afternoon break.
Yeah, it a common joke among federal employees...promote them to get them out of the way. The federal gov't can't get rid of someone very easily, but they can make their lives miserable. Probably why some folks go postal.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
The only real legitimate tax problem is the fact that we are forced to pay so damn much for so damn much waste.
if i paid taxes (and i don't cause my income is tiny, not that i'm complaining, it would just be stupid for them to ask me to pay taxes with the money that tthey're giving me in a student loan), i would want to atach a sheet detailing how i wanted my money to be spent, especially now that i'm writting a paper on conservation policies and can't find a fucking policy that lets farmers get money back or even help for converting their farms to organic farms, while the department of agriculture spends billions (they've got the breakdown listed on their site) on developing and testing new pesticides. boils my blood. sorry if this is off topic
No problem can be solved from the same consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein
if i paid taxes (and i don't cause my income is tiny, not that i'm complaining, it would just be stupid for them to ask me to pay taxes with the money that tthey're giving me in a student loan), i would want to atach a sheet detailing how i wanted my money to be spent, especially now that i'm writting a paper on conservation policies and can't find a fucking policy that lets farmers get money back or even help for converting their farms to organic farms, while the department of agriculture spends billions (they've got the breakdown listed on their site) on developing and testing new pesticides. boils my blood. sorry if this is off topic
I would like the same thing except after funding a few items, I would list the rest as a refund to myself to spend on goods and services that I see fit.
Exactly. It would be like moving to a different neighborhood where the only difference would be the family name of the person you are paying for "protection."
I guess my point was that I don't want to see a pencil pushing government bureaucrat (I know they aren't all that way!) paid at a better (non-market) rate than someone taking a risk in an innovating company. Someone who is trying everyday to make a difference for themselves, for their company, and perhaps for the people who benefit from their product/service.
and my point was why would a low level, phone-answering admin person at the irs give a shit about your ideas for sweeping overhaul of the federal tax code... there's nothing they can do about it.
Depends on who and where I was buying things from. It's like now with cars. I never buy cars here in North Carolina. I simply cross over to Virginia and purchase the car in order to avoid the sales tax. Sure, some taxes are still arguably incurred in the price of the vehicle itself.
Depends on who and where I was buying things from. It's like now with cars. I never buy cars here in North Carolina. I simply cross over to Virginia and purchase the car in order to avoid the sales tax. Sure, some taxes are still arguably incurred in the price of the vehicle itself.
what are the large scale transactional costs of doing that kind of thing across a soceity? not everyon has the resources to have soemthing shipped from overseas.
what are the large scale transactional costs of doing that kind of thing across a soceity? not everyon has the resources to have soemthing shipped from overseas.
Hehe...tell that to the trade deficit. You're already paying those costs, for the most part.
ffg already covered that part buddy. be original. i was just pointing out how futile and pointless it was and how no amount of whining by the likes of you is going to change a goddamn thing about the irs.
Your period a little heavy today? Should we send you some more Kotex?
_____________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
_____________________
Comments
It is certainly not wasteful for a physician to treat a veteran. What is wasteful is if that physician is being paid more than market salary. But that physician isn't really what people are talking about when they are talking about a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy. It is the 251 support staff that file paperwork and try to decipher regulations and forms that that physician has to fill out that is the problem. And if they are being paid higher than market wages simply because they "put in their time" on the grade scale and have now been bumped up, that is a problem.
I think you have a different understanding of my use of "risk". I'm not talking about physical risk. I believe there are many physical risks associated with working in level 3 labs. My use of the word relates to taking personal risks and being rewarded. Many, many bureaucratic government jobs are considered "safe" - meaning that if you show up, do your job, go home, show up again tomorrow, etc... you'll always have a job within the government and you'll continue to be bumped in pay grade.
My point - why should that be a given? What is that so easily and readily accepted? That is the problem.
I think everyone should agree that employees don't dictate policy. To think otherwise would be silly. But he was simply using extreme mischaracterisation to attempt to make a point. He can't see how individual employees can make individual contributions to their daily work - within the scope of their positions - to make their jobs, and the companies/organizations better or more efficient. That is the disconnect.
Hey, you're exposing one of soulsinging's most trusty strategies!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I absolutely agree with you here. I deal with clerks that fit your description. I had one the other day try to dictate to me when she was going to fill out a form that was required before proceeding with a life-saving procedure. She had other things to do like surf the net and talk on the phone. She is like what you described above. Her supervisor never held her accountable, so she was eventually demoted after this incident. But, you can not paint all federal employees with the same brush. That's all I was pointing out.
BTW, a professional federal employee's salary is either at or just below market place. The Feds can NOT purposely pay us more than market. However, it does happen in the medical field when the surrounding private institutions cut out cost of living increases and merit increases, which is what has happened in my neck of the woods.
I know what you are saying here and, yes, I pretty much would have to shoot someone in the face to be 'let go'. I might add that the bump in 'pay grade' isn't all that great and once you reach the top of the scale you're stuck. It will be another 3 years before I advance on that scale, and when I do, I will be capped out. I also make too much to 'qualify' for overtime (I get about $.50 more an hour). I will, however, receive cost of living increases which usually match the market place 'merit' increase. So really there are perks and irritations to a federal position.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
And with this we come full circle back to ffg's original post. Gov't isn't a business. It isn't run like a business. They don't have "customers' in the sense that there is choice. They don't have to provide any level of "customer" service, since there is no fear that the "customer" will take their "business" elsewhere. It is not a business.
I guess my point was that I don't want to see a pencil pushing government bureaucrat (I know they aren't all that way!) paid at a better (non-market) rate than someone taking a risk in an innovating company. Someone who is trying everyday to make a difference for themselves, for their company, and perhaps for the people who benefit from their product/service.
The clerk that you mentioned in the first paragraph here reminds me of a story I heard here. Except the clerk was promoted after many of these incidents just so that they could get her out of that office without getting sued for some sort of discrimination. This woman didn't do anything horrible. She just refused to do anything at all except surf the internet, talk to her friends on the phone and walk around spreading gossip when she wasn't on her 95 minute lunch break or half hour afternoon break.
This isn't completely true. A veteran with means can absolutely take his business to another hospital. We have to remain competitive and provide healthcare on par with the market place. The jobs healthcare professionals do for the VAs in our country are no different than what is being done in the private sector. I know what you are saying, but this doesn't apply across the board for all gov't employees.
When one takes a risk with an 'innovated' company, they usually do not receive much in the beginning, it's the potential payoff in the end. Federal employees will never become billionaires, but someone with a start up business who makes sacrifices might. It all shakes out in the end.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
That's understandable. I personally fully understand why a government is wishing to attract at a higher than average level, and that they would understand how important it is to keep their employees happy so as to ensure reasonbly good representation.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Yeah, it a common joke among federal employees...promote them to get them out of the way. The federal gov't can't get rid of someone very easily, but they can make their lives miserable. Probably why some folks go postal.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
if i paid taxes (and i don't cause my income is tiny, not that i'm complaining, it would just be stupid for them to ask me to pay taxes with the money that tthey're giving me in a student loan), i would want to atach a sheet detailing how i wanted my money to be spent, especially now that i'm writting a paper on conservation policies and can't find a fucking policy that lets farmers get money back or even help for converting their farms to organic farms, while the department of agriculture spends billions (they've got the breakdown listed on their site) on developing and testing new pesticides. boils my blood. sorry if this is off topic
Albert Einstein
I would like the same thing except after funding a few items, I would list the rest as a refund to myself to spend on goods and services that I see fit.
yeah, but I didn't pick the name.
and pay taxes to their government instead.
Exactly. It would be like moving to a different neighborhood where the only difference would be the family name of the person you are paying for "protection."
and my point was why would a low level, phone-answering admin person at the irs give a shit about your ideas for sweeping overhaul of the federal tax code... there's nothing they can do about it.
Depends on who and where I was buying things from. It's like now with cars. I never buy cars here in North Carolina. I simply cross over to Virginia and purchase the car in order to avoid the sales tax. Sure, some taxes are still arguably incurred in the price of the vehicle itself.
what are the large scale transactional costs of doing that kind of thing across a soceity? not everyon has the resources to have soemthing shipped from overseas.
Hehe...tell that to the trade deficit. You're already paying those costs, for the most part.
ive got a better idea... ill write an email to the phone secretary at the department of commerce. im sure he can take care of this for me
Make sure it's as snarky as possible.
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our representatives are busy assisting other citizens.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Your period a little heavy today? Should we send you some more Kotex?
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!
- Benjamin Franklin
If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die, I want to go where they went.
-Will Rogers
_____________________
I'll take that over "customer".
dont you claim you're not a citizen either?
No. I simply don't believe in the ephemeral contract you've attached to it.