The Obama Presidency Could This Signal the Beginning of the End...

saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
edited November 2008 in A Moving Train
...for Affirmative Action?

This man, impressively worked his way through the system. A system, typically, dominated by the wealthy. Yet, he made it to the top of it all.

IMHO, at the very least, we should start really looking at this issue once again. Why? Well, because many white males are descriminated against.

I'll provide an example. I went to grad school. As a white male, I was in the heavy minority of the entrants into my program. The program I was in is typically dominated by foreigners. At any rate, the school also wants a higher percentage of minorities and females in the program. I luckily got in. But, I know for certain, a number of white males who were "more qualified scholastically in relative terms" did not... because the business school favored taking females and minorities to increase their percentages. So, I make it out of grad school and I realize that once again (as a white male), I'm going to have to compete heavily against "not as qualified" minorities and women in the workforce. Once again, I'm going to be unfairly overlooked in order for certain firms to boost their relative numbers of women and minorities. That's not once,... it's twice.

STOP.... Don't for one second say I'm being predjudice because I'm saying people should be treated equally. I understand that this program (affirmative action) may have been needed for a while in order for minorities to have a fair chance. I also understand my field may be somewhat different from the norm. But, are we finally breaking through...

Now, for the question... given the fact that we now have an African American President.... could this signal the beginning of the end? If not, what will?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    I'm against affirmative action. That's all I have to say. I don't think Obama's succes will change the policies on affirmative action significantly.
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  • meisteredermeistereder Posts: 1,577
    Well, if the goal of affirmative action was to get a non-white president into office, then I see your point. But I don't think that was the end-all point. Also, I don't think Obama would agree with the implication that he is the product of affirmative action. That would suggest he was the recipient of benefits due to his race. From what I understand, he was an academic stud throughout his higher education, unlike, for example, McCain.

    I know that you are asking a broader question, but I just don't think this would signal some sort of "all clear."
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  • jimed14jimed14 Posts: 9,488
    not for nothing, but if this election did one thing, it uncovered that racism is indeed still alive and kicking in the good ol' U.S.A.

    Obama hasn't even won yet ... it's not a lock ... let's see what happens if he wins and how things go for a few years before we can call an end to anything.
    "You're one of the few Red Sox fans I don't mind." - Newch91

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  • saveuplife wrote:
    ...for Affirmative Action?

    This man, impressively worked his way through the system. A system, typically, dominated by the wealthy. Yet, he made it to the top of it all.

    IMHO, at the very least, we should start really looking at this issue once again. Why? Well, because many white males are descriminated against.

    I'll provide an example. I went to grad school. As a white male, I was in the heavy minority of the entrants into my program. The program I was in is typically dominated by foreigners. At any rate, the school also wants a higher percentage of minorities and females in the program. I luckily got in. But, I know for certain, a number of white males who were "more qualified scholastically in relative terms" did not... because the business school favored taking females and minorities to increase their percentages. So, I make it out of grad school and I realize that once again (as a white male), I'm going to have to compete heavily against "not as qualified" minorities and women in the workforce. Once again, I'm going to be unfairly overlooked in order for certain firms to boost their relative numbers of women and minorities. That's not once,... it's twice.

    STOP.... Don't for one second say I'm being predjudice because I'm saying people should be treated equally. I understand that this program (affirmative action) may have been needed for a while in order for minorities to have a fair chance. I also understand my field may be somewhat different from the norm. But, are we finally breaking through...

    Now, for the question... given the fact that we now have an African American President.... could this signal the beginning of the end? If not, what will?

    I'm sure this won't go over well, but I subscribe to the Obama and Bill Cosby philosophy about minorities that are lazy and unwilling to work hard to succeed, that they need to quit making excuses and get off their asses.. Of course, from my perspective, anyone that this fits to, needs to get off their asses, and take responsibility for their own success and/or failure.

    I think we are close to a time where affirmative action can go away, but I don't think it should be pushed aside without taking a serious look at the reasons it's in place. I'd like to see a push by leaders for parents to be parents. Take responsbility for participating in the education of their children. This will have more effect than affirmative action can in the long run at this point.
    "Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)

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  • Surf RiderSurf Rider Posts: 813
    edited March 2009
    ................
    Post edited by Surf Rider on
  • jasonwjasonw Posts: 424
    As a white male, i think we are the absolute LEAST discriminated against population in the country.....stop your whining
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,647
    saveuplife wrote:
    ...for Affirmative Action?

    This man, impressively worked his way through the system. A system, typically, dominated by the wealthy. Yet, he made it to the top of it all.

    IMHO, at the very least, we should start really looking at this issue once again. Why? Well, because many white males are descriminated against.

    I'll provide an example. I went to grad school. As a white male, I was in the heavy minority of the entrants into my program. The program I was in is typically dominated by foreigners. At any rate, the school also wants a higher percentage of minorities and females in the program. I luckily got in. But, I know for certain, a number of white males who were "more qualified scholastically in relative terms" did not... because the business school favored taking females and minorities to increase their percentages. So, I make it out of grad school and I realize that once again (as a white male), I'm going to have to compete heavily against "not as qualified" minorities and women in the workforce. Once again, I'm going to be unfairly overlooked in order for certain firms to boost their relative numbers of women and minorities. That's not once,... it's twice.

    STOP.... Don't for one second say I'm being predjudice because I'm saying people should be treated equally. I understand that this program (affirmative action) may have been needed for a while in order for minorities to have a fair chance. I also understand my field may be somewhat different from the norm. But, are we finally breaking through...

    Now, for the question... given the fact that we now have an African American President.... could this signal the beginning of the end? If not, what will?

    Think of how many qualified applicants were unfairly overlooked 50 years ago simply because they were a minority. Think of how many white males were given the unfair advantage.

    Any white male who is placed at a disadvantage these days is paying the price for wrongs committed by other white males several generations ago.
  • I'm sure many will not like what I have to say BUT I think affirmative action is the path minorites take to not work to the full extent to their abilities.

    If there are 100 applicants for a 50 positions at work, school whatever is that you are going for it should go to the most qualified ones it should be decided based on that not on a percentage the school or workplace needs to fill up.

    And if this 100% white or black or hispanic that deserved it then it is what it is, if its 50-50 the same.

    It's totally unfair to be more prepared and be passed on for a person that's less prepared than you just because of the color of their skin.
    "Without the album covers, where do you clean your pot?" - EV
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    Think of how many qualified applicants were unfairly overlooked 50 years ago simply because they were a minority. Think of how many white males were given the unfair advantage.

    Any white male who is placed at a disadvantage these days is paying the price for wrongs committed by other white males several generations ago.

    Is that OK? Should that be enforced by law?

    I agree with your first paragraph. But I don't think you fix discrimination with more discrimination.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,647
    jeffbr wrote:
    Is that OK? Should that be enforced by law?

    I agree with your first paragraph. But I don't think you fix discrimination with more discrimination.

    How would you propose to fix it?
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    This is one of the most ridiculous posts of all time. As a white man I had to overcome blah, blah, blah. Talk about wanting to be the victim. Anyway evidence shows that middle class white women get the most out of Afirmative Action. Why don't you do some actual research on this before you put up such a moronic post. Boy for such a smart guy...
  • aNiMaLaNiMaL Posts: 7,117
    The end of affirmative action? I agree the law is flawed. But what does a President Obama have to do with that? He isn't being elected because of affirmative action and he isn't being elected because he is black.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:
    How would you propose to fix it?

    If no discrimination occurs, the problem fixes itself. The best candidate will always be the one who gets hired.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • thou dost protest too much methinks

    Affirmative action goes further than skin color.
    Why don't you just say what you actually feel?
    the Minions
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    thou dost protest too much methinks

    Affirmative action goes further than skin color.
    Why don't you just say what you actually feel?

    You presume too much. The problem is that you can't ignore skin color apparently. My company has 7 employees. Here's how the demographics break down - 3 white, 3 african american, 1 asian. Guess what quota system we had in place while hiring? None.

    Actually, I will say what I actually feel - I feel that it is wrong to punish someone for the sins of their fathers. That's why I think christianity, with the whole notion of original sin is stupid. People should be judged on their own merits. Sorry if that is hard for you to hear.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jeffbr wrote:
    If no discrimination occurs, the problem fixes itself. The best candidate will always be the one who gets hired.
    how does one determine who the best candidate is? i mean should more weight be placed on say an individual's schooling and test scores or the fact that maybe they overcame long odds of even getting out of the inner city to a state school? the problem is that discrimination has manifest itself in a variety of ways, and that NO discrimination, while a lofty goal, is very difficult to achieve.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jeffbr wrote:
    You presume too much. The problem is that you can't ignore skin color apparently. My company has 7 employees. Here's how the demographics break down - 3 white, 3 african american, 1 asian. Guess what quota system we had in place while hiring? None.

    Actually, I will say what I actually feel - I feel that it is wrong to punish someone for the sins of their fathers. That's why I think christianity, with the whole notion of original sin is stupid. People should be judged on their own merits. Sorry if that is hard for you to hear.
    yeah but the sins of our fathers have punished and continue to punish people today. just because you don't want it to be true doesn't make it so. (edit) wasn't it marx who wrote something like the effect of the dead will weigh like an alp on the minds of the people today?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    ryan198 wrote:
    yeah but the sins of our fathers have punished and continue to punish people today. just because you don't want it to be true doesn't make it so. (edit) wasn't it marx who wrote something like the effect of the dead will weigh like an alp on the minds of the people today?

    So your solution then is to perpetuate inequality, but as a means to acheive your end (however noble it may seem). Doesn't sound any better than what our "fathers" were doing to acheive their end.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Jeremy1012Jeremy1012 Posts: 7,170
    jasonw wrote:
    As a white male, i think we are the absolute LEAST discriminated against population in the country.....stop your whining
    I know, it's hilarious, a white male, priviledged enough to be sitting in front of his computer talking about all the racial oppression he has suffered because he's white.

    Life is HARD :rolleyes:

    Affirmative action can be harmful but god almighty, posts of this kind seem so ridiculous in context.
    "I remember one night at Muzdalifa with nothing but the sky overhead, I lay awake amid sleeping Muslim brothers and I learned that pilgrims from every land — every colour, and class, and rank; high officials and the beggar alike — all snored in the same language"
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    jeffbr wrote:
    So your solution then is to perpetuate inequality, but as a means to acheive your end (however noble it may seem). Doesn't sound any better than what our "fathers" were doing to acheive their end.
    so are you proposing that we just throw up our hands, say "sorry guys/gals" to the undereducated urban working class that are largely there as a result of the oppressive regimes of our (fore)fathers, and say "we're all even now". Doesn't seem like we've solved much to me...the racism is now systemic, which is why the system needs to be altered...which is what AA tries (and isn't great at) to do.
  • jasonw wrote:
    As a white male, i think we are the absolute LEAST discriminated against population in the country.....stop your whining

    Thank you. I so agree.

    Saveuplife just likes to play devil's advocate. He loves to stir up the kettle!
    "i'm a dedicated insomniac" ~ ev nyc beacon 6/22
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    One example of a success story doesn't mean the problem is solved or it is the benchmark for the issue. It's equivelent to saying racism against minorities doesn't exist because (if) Obama can be the President.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • jeffbr wrote:
    You presume too much. The problem is that you can't ignore skin color apparently. My company has 7 employees. Here's how the demographics break down - 3 white, 3 african american, 1 asian. Guess what quota system we had in place while hiring? None.

    Actually, I will say what I actually feel - I feel that it is wrong to punish someone for the sins of their fathers. That's why I think christianity, with the whole notion of original sin is stupid. People should be judged on their own merits. Sorry if that is hard for you to hear.

    Yeah well I once worked for a man that said he'd never hire a black and he didn't and guess what quota system we had in place? None.
    He also wouldn't hire women either.

    What do you think of that? And before you suggest this is an exception rather than the rule.... think again.

    Afirmative action may have it's flaws but the ACLU still documents thousands of violations daily.
    the Minions
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,647
    ryan198 wrote:
    so are you proposing that we just throw up our hands, say "sorry guys/gals" to the undereducated urban working class that are largely there as a result of the oppressive regimes of our (fore)fathers, and say "we're all even now". Doesn't seem like we've solved much to me...the racism is now systemic, which is why the system needs to be altered...which is what AA tries (and isn't great at) to do.

    Only the oppresed have the right to call it even, so the former oppressor should do what he can to make the oppressed feel as even as possible.
  • JOEJOEJOEJOEJOEJOE Posts: 10,647
    FiveB247x wrote:
    One example of a success story doesn't mean the problem is solved or it is the benchmark for the issue. It's equivelent to saying racism against minorities doesn't exist because (if) Obama can be the President.

    I agree.....same as when Julia Roberts married Lyle Lovett.....it didn't mean that all hot actresses rushed-out to marry frizzy-haired quirky dudes!
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    when you say "foreigners", do you mean minorities or actual non-us citizens?


    Good question. I don't remember the context off hand because I typed the question quickly. But, what I meant was actual non-U.S. citizens.... for my grad program. That said, there were many foreigners "who became U.S. citizens while in the program" and those who were simply U.S. citizens (minorities).
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Yeah well I once worked for a man that said he'd never hire a black and he didn't and guess what quota system we had in place? None.
    He also wouldn't hire women either.

    What do you think of that? And before you suggest this is an exception rather than the rule.... think again.

    Afirmative action may have it's flaws but the ACLU still documents thousands of violations daily.

    What I think about that is that guy makes stupid fucking business decisions, and I hope his business fails. As a business owner, I always want to bring in someone I think would be able to best contribute to the success of my company. As soon as I start limiting my options, I limit my ability to succeed. But the problem with AA is that it can have the effect of limiting options.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 30,370
    thanks for sharing your wealth :) ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    ryan198 wrote:
    so are you proposing that we just throw up our hands, say "sorry guys/gals" to the undereducated urban working class that are largely there as a result of the oppressive regimes of our (fore)fathers, and say "we're all even now". Doesn't seem like we've solved much to me...the racism is now systemic, which is why the system needs to be altered...which is what AA tries (and isn't great at) to do.

    The problem is that AA doesn't do that, really (even by your own admission). I don't claim "we're all even now", but the problems that need to be addressed are issues you've covered which occur before AA should even be a factor. Spend more time working on inner-city education and training. Don't excuse the lack of education and/or training, and simply accept someone to an institution where you've just set them up for failure.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • saveuplifesaveuplife Posts: 1,173
    FiveB247x wrote:
    One example of a success story doesn't mean the problem is solved or it is the benchmark for the issue. It's equivelent to saying racism against minorities doesn't exist because (if) Obama can be the President.


    I know that and I'm not attempting to imply that the problem of racism is solved by any means or stretch of the imagination. The truth is, and I think you'd agree, racism... will always remain a problem. ALWAYS..... ON BOTH SIDES.

    My point is in regards to Affirmative Action. I think, it's fair to label this as reverse racism. Don't take offense to the terminology I used... not meant to be offensive. My point in calling it reverse racism is simply that racism is existing still.... but on the opposite side of the coin from the minority. But, with Affirmative Action we are still judging others by skin color.

    The question I posed had to do with whether an achievement like this would settle some fears within the African American community. Basically, they have seen an African American, who was not wealthy, move up the ladder.... all the way to the top.

    A number of people in this thread claimed Obama did not receive assistance from Affirmative Action. I honestly don't know whether he did or did not. But, for arguments sake, let's say he did not receive assistance. Then his accomplishment shows that an African American can do all of what he did without any assistance from the goverment. So, if that "is true", could you see the issue of Affrimative Action... at the very least.... being slightly LESS necessary? And if it's less necessary than it was in the past.... when will it be NOT be necessary at all?
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