The Obama Presidency Could This Signal the Beginning of the End...
saveuplife
Posts: 1,173
...for Affirmative Action?
This man, impressively worked his way through the system. A system, typically, dominated by the wealthy. Yet, he made it to the top of it all.
IMHO, at the very least, we should start really looking at this issue once again. Why? Well, because many white males are descriminated against.
I'll provide an example. I went to grad school. As a white male, I was in the heavy minority of the entrants into my program. The program I was in is typically dominated by foreigners. At any rate, the school also wants a higher percentage of minorities and females in the program. I luckily got in. But, I know for certain, a number of white males who were "more qualified scholastically in relative terms" did not... because the business school favored taking females and minorities to increase their percentages. So, I make it out of grad school and I realize that once again (as a white male), I'm going to have to compete heavily against "not as qualified" minorities and women in the workforce. Once again, I'm going to be unfairly overlooked in order for certain firms to boost their relative numbers of women and minorities. That's not once,... it's twice.
STOP.... Don't for one second say I'm being predjudice because I'm saying people should be treated equally. I understand that this program (affirmative action) may have been needed for a while in order for minorities to have a fair chance. I also understand my field may be somewhat different from the norm. But, are we finally breaking through...
Now, for the question... given the fact that we now have an African American President.... could this signal the beginning of the end? If not, what will?
This man, impressively worked his way through the system. A system, typically, dominated by the wealthy. Yet, he made it to the top of it all.
IMHO, at the very least, we should start really looking at this issue once again. Why? Well, because many white males are descriminated against.
I'll provide an example. I went to grad school. As a white male, I was in the heavy minority of the entrants into my program. The program I was in is typically dominated by foreigners. At any rate, the school also wants a higher percentage of minorities and females in the program. I luckily got in. But, I know for certain, a number of white males who were "more qualified scholastically in relative terms" did not... because the business school favored taking females and minorities to increase their percentages. So, I make it out of grad school and I realize that once again (as a white male), I'm going to have to compete heavily against "not as qualified" minorities and women in the workforce. Once again, I'm going to be unfairly overlooked in order for certain firms to boost their relative numbers of women and minorities. That's not once,... it's twice.
STOP.... Don't for one second say I'm being predjudice because I'm saying people should be treated equally. I understand that this program (affirmative action) may have been needed for a while in order for minorities to have a fair chance. I also understand my field may be somewhat different from the norm. But, are we finally breaking through...
Now, for the question... given the fact that we now have an African American President.... could this signal the beginning of the end? If not, what will?
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I know that you are asking a broader question, but I just don't think this would signal some sort of "all clear."
Obama hasn't even won yet ... it's not a lock ... let's see what happens if he wins and how things go for a few years before we can call an end to anything.
"I don't believe in damn curses. Wake up the damn Bambino and have me face him. Maybe I'll drill him in the ass." --- Pedro Martinez
I'm sure this won't go over well, but I subscribe to the Obama and Bill Cosby philosophy about minorities that are lazy and unwilling to work hard to succeed, that they need to quit making excuses and get off their asses.. Of course, from my perspective, anyone that this fits to, needs to get off their asses, and take responsibility for their own success and/or failure.
I think we are close to a time where affirmative action can go away, but I don't think it should be pushed aside without taking a serious look at the reasons it's in place. I'd like to see a push by leaders for parents to be parents. Take responsbility for participating in the education of their children. This will have more effect than affirmative action can in the long run at this point.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
Think of how many qualified applicants were unfairly overlooked 50 years ago simply because they were a minority. Think of how many white males were given the unfair advantage.
Any white male who is placed at a disadvantage these days is paying the price for wrongs committed by other white males several generations ago.
If there are 100 applicants for a 50 positions at work, school whatever is that you are going for it should go to the most qualified ones it should be decided based on that not on a percentage the school or workplace needs to fill up.
And if this 100% white or black or hispanic that deserved it then it is what it is, if its 50-50 the same.
It's totally unfair to be more prepared and be passed on for a person that's less prepared than you just because of the color of their skin.
Is that OK? Should that be enforced by law?
I agree with your first paragraph. But I don't think you fix discrimination with more discrimination.
How would you propose to fix it?
If no discrimination occurs, the problem fixes itself. The best candidate will always be the one who gets hired.
Affirmative action goes further than skin color.
Why don't you just say what you actually feel?
You presume too much. The problem is that you can't ignore skin color apparently. My company has 7 employees. Here's how the demographics break down - 3 white, 3 african american, 1 asian. Guess what quota system we had in place while hiring? None.
Actually, I will say what I actually feel - I feel that it is wrong to punish someone for the sins of their fathers. That's why I think christianity, with the whole notion of original sin is stupid. People should be judged on their own merits. Sorry if that is hard for you to hear.
So your solution then is to perpetuate inequality, but as a means to acheive your end (however noble it may seem). Doesn't sound any better than what our "fathers" were doing to acheive their end.
Life is HARD :rolleyes:
Affirmative action can be harmful but god almighty, posts of this kind seem so ridiculous in context.
Thank you. I so agree.
Saveuplife just likes to play devil's advocate. He loves to stir up the kettle!
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Yeah well I once worked for a man that said he'd never hire a black and he didn't and guess what quota system we had in place? None.
He also wouldn't hire women either.
What do you think of that? And before you suggest this is an exception rather than the rule.... think again.
Afirmative action may have it's flaws but the ACLU still documents thousands of violations daily.
Only the oppresed have the right to call it even, so the former oppressor should do what he can to make the oppressed feel as even as possible.
I agree.....same as when Julia Roberts married Lyle Lovett.....it didn't mean that all hot actresses rushed-out to marry frizzy-haired quirky dudes!
Good question. I don't remember the context off hand because I typed the question quickly. But, what I meant was actual non-U.S. citizens.... for my grad program. That said, there were many foreigners "who became U.S. citizens while in the program" and those who were simply U.S. citizens (minorities).
What I think about that is that guy makes stupid fucking business decisions, and I hope his business fails. As a business owner, I always want to bring in someone I think would be able to best contribute to the success of my company. As soon as I start limiting my options, I limit my ability to succeed. But the problem with AA is that it can have the effect of limiting options.
The problem is that AA doesn't do that, really (even by your own admission). I don't claim "we're all even now", but the problems that need to be addressed are issues you've covered which occur before AA should even be a factor. Spend more time working on inner-city education and training. Don't excuse the lack of education and/or training, and simply accept someone to an institution where you've just set them up for failure.
I know that and I'm not attempting to imply that the problem of racism is solved by any means or stretch of the imagination. The truth is, and I think you'd agree, racism... will always remain a problem. ALWAYS..... ON BOTH SIDES.
My point is in regards to Affirmative Action. I think, it's fair to label this as reverse racism. Don't take offense to the terminology I used... not meant to be offensive. My point in calling it reverse racism is simply that racism is existing still.... but on the opposite side of the coin from the minority. But, with Affirmative Action we are still judging others by skin color.
The question I posed had to do with whether an achievement like this would settle some fears within the African American community. Basically, they have seen an African American, who was not wealthy, move up the ladder.... all the way to the top.
A number of people in this thread claimed Obama did not receive assistance from Affirmative Action. I honestly don't know whether he did or did not. But, for arguments sake, let's say he did not receive assistance. Then his accomplishment shows that an African American can do all of what he did without any assistance from the goverment. So, if that "is true", could you see the issue of Affrimative Action... at the very least.... being slightly LESS necessary? And if it's less necessary than it was in the past.... when will it be NOT be necessary at all?