The reason why the Lebonese infrastructure gets attacked…

rebornFixer

thankyougrandma wrote:

cutting the sympathy without blowing up Israel then, i don't think the majority of the population in Lebanon and even those who currently support Hezbollah in THIS conflict, are supporting the destruction of Israel. Just my opinion...

That could be true, at least with regards to the average person in Lebanon who isn't a card-carrying member of Hezbollah. It does disturb me that the general populace in some of these countries dances in the streets whenever Israel and/or the U.S. suffers a setback.

floyd1975

thankyougrandma wrote:

cutting the sympathy without blowing up Israel then, i don't think the majority of the population in Lebanon and even those who currently support Hezbollah in THIS conflict, are supporting the destruction of Israel. Just my opinion...

I would like to think that most people who are criticizing Israel in this conflict are supportive of the Lebanese government as opposed to supporting a terrorist group whose stated goal is to exterminate all people of a specific religion while hiding behind citizens and actively preventing them from fleeing bombs.

RockinInCanada

reborncareerist wrote:

That could be true, at least with regards to the average person in Lebanon who isn't a card-carrying member of Hezbollah. It does disturb me that the general populace in some of these countries dances in the streets whenever Israel and/or the U.S. suffers a setback.

to be fair though...is what we see the majority??.....hard to tell about that...cause it easily could be the minority of nut-jobs having a party while the intellgient majority says to thereselves..."no wonder everyone hates us"

RockinInCanada

zstillings wrote:

I would like to think that most people who are criticizing Israel in this conflict are supportive of the Lebanese government as opposed to supporting a terrorist group whose stated goal is to exterminate all people of a specific religion while hiding behind citizens and actively preventing them from fleeing bombs.

Yeah I support the Lebonese government...I do not support nut-jobs who are plan and simple murderers...the majority of the people here who seem "anti-Israel" feel this way....too bad most are labelled wrongly.....

floyd1975

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Yeah I support the Lebonese government...I do not support nut-jobs who are plan and simple murderers...the majority of the people here who seem "anti-Israel" feel this way....too bad most are labelled wrongly.....

I would not label those supporting the Lebanese government as anti-Israel. I would label those who consistently criticize the existence of Israel as anti-Israel.

thankyougrandma

reborncareerist wrote:

That could be true, at least with regards to the average person in Lebanon who isn't a card-carrying member of Hezbollah. It does disturb me that the general populace in some of these countries dances in the streets whenever Israel and/or the U.S. suffers a setback.

but they have the impression that Israel and the USA are doing the same to them, so i guess it's a matter of communication and both side are to blame...

edit: both side LEADERS are mostly to blame...

polaris

zstillings wrote:

I would like to think that most people who are criticizing Israel in this conflict are supportive of the Lebanese government as opposed to supporting a terrorist group whose stated goal is to exterminate all people of a specific religion while hiding behind citizens and actively preventing them from fleeing bombs.

i question everything ... i seriuosly question who was really behind this escalation ... based on the reaction of the israelis - the consequences although callous are predictable ... and now we have the US pointing at syria and iran ... and we all know they need the slightest motivations to invade a country ...

thankyougrandma

zstillings wrote:

I would like to think that most people who are criticizing Israel in this conflict are supportive of the Lebanese government as opposed to supporting a terrorist group whose stated goal is to exterminate all people of a specific religion while hiding behind citizens and actively preventing them from fleeing bombs.

fair enough, me i'd like to think that everyone can see that Israel current actions are disproportionate (tough word)... but this thread prove me wrong...

rebornFixer

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

to be fair though...is what we see the majority??.....hard to tell about that...cause it easily could be the minority of nut-jobs having a party while the intellgient majority says to thereselves..."no wonder everyone hates us"

Good point, good point ... I'd really like to think that there are a lot of sensible people in the Middle East who just want to live their lives without fear of violence. Our sensationalist media does probably give us a fairly biased picture.

RockinInCanada

reborncareerist wrote:

Good point, good point ... I'd really like to think that there are a lot of sensible people in the Middle East who just want to live their lives without fear of violence. Our sensationalist media does probably give us a fairly biased picture.

Cause honestly I believe in the goodness of humankind for one minute I do not believe the vast majority of people in these countries want these nut jobs blowing people up...which is what I am trying to say in so many posts....that these people had to deal with radical Muslim fundamentalsim way before the West had heard of Al Queda...I seriously believe the majority of these people want to raise a family, goto school, have fun....they want what every person wants; some happiness...its just sad that the actual size of radicals is blown out of proportion to support alternative agendas....

I watched an excellant non biased documentary on The Fifth Estate on Monday night...it looked at neo-conservatism and radical Muslim fundamentalsom and slammed BOTH hard and equally...and its funny after the show you kind of gained a sense that both have the same motives...to further promote their idealogy through fighting and fear mongering....and to breed an invisible fear...for neo-cons it was the fear of terror and for the radical Muslims it was the fear of western culture.....very funny how both paralled each other...very nice to see a documentary that picked no favorite, instead dismanteled both sides to show what they truely are..I will try to find the name of the program for you I think you would have enjoyed it.....plus it looked how neo-conservatism totally hi-jacked the real Republican party...it showed high-lights of Republicans at their own conference getting heckled and booed for their support of pro-choice...in all fairness Bush style neo-conservtatism has destroyed what the actual Republican party was really about...plus given the term "conservatism" a bad name world wide...anywho I will try to track down that name....

rebornFixer

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Cause honestly I believe in the goodness of humankind for one minute I do not believe the vast majority of people in these countries want these nut jobs blowing people up...which is what I am trying to say in so many posts....that these people had to deal with radical Muslim fundamentalsim way before the West had heard of Al Queda...I seriously believe the majority of these people want to raise a family, goto school, have fun....they want what every person wants; some happiness...its just sad that the actual size of radicals is blown out of proportion to support alternative agendas....

I watched an excellant non biased documentary on The Fifth Estate on Monday night...it looked at neo-conservatism and radical Muslim fundamentalsom and slammed BOTH hard and equally...and its funny after the show you kind of gained a sense that both have the same motives...to further promote their idealogy through fighting and fear mongering....and to breed an invisible fear...for neo-cons it was the fear of terror and for the radical Muslims it was the fear of western culture.....very funny how both paralled each other...very nice to see a documentary that picked no favorite, instead dismanteled both sides to show what they truely are..I will try to find the name of the program for you I think you would have enjoyed it.....plus it looked how neo-conservatism totally hi-jacked the real Republican party...it showed high-lights of Republicans at their own conference getting heckled and booed for their support of pro-choice...in all fairness Bush style neo-conservtatism has destroyed what the actual Republican party was really about...plus given the term "conservatism" a bad name world wide...anywho I will try to track down that name....

Please do track down that name, if you can ... This is interesting, because I have been entertaining similar thoughts these days, that we touched upon in other threads about how polarized everyone is becoming. The rational middle ground in politics is disappearing (along with the middle class, perhaps!), and you have fundamentalists of every stripe starting to resemble one another in tactics ... More specifically, the way they have embraced fear.

Nakedeye66

reborncareerist wrote:

Good point, good point ... I'd really like to think that there are a lot of sensible people in the Middle East who just want to live their lives without fear of violence. Our sensationalist media does probably give us a fairly biased picture.

Good points indeed.

The newsmedia is a joke - left, right, center. It is insulting, remedial, sensationalist, ratings hungry, and generally assinine. I bet you'll find incredible unity on that point no matter where folks stand on the substantive issues.

Nakedeye66

"Neoconservatism" has become void of all meaning.

When the term arose in the 1960s, and I don't recall the pundit, it was explained as "a liberal having been mugged by reality". It might have been Norman Podhoretz, but I'm not certain. Basically, it meant little more than former radicals and liberals who became conservative as their peers lurched further left. A concept which is often embedded in the aging process and hardly a political movement. As Churchill once said:

"Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.”

I'm often amused by that quote, as I turn 40 next month and have drifted right a bit, while as a 20 year old I was extremely liberal and damn fired up about it. But when people speak of "neoconservative" today, it usually means 1 of 2 things.

First, those who espouse those views tend to have a conservative foreign policy view combined with an utterly non-conservative, Wilsonian idealism that seeks to intervene everywhere and mold the world in our image. While I sort of respect the idealism and strategic goals, I think this view (as best expemplified by our Iraqi adventure) is anti-conservative by being overly naive and ambitious, and not always in American self-interest. It really reflects liberal activism by conservative thinkers.

The second way the term is used, is an unflattering slur against pundits, think-tankers, politicians, Bush supporters, and Iraqi war supporters with Jewish surnames. It's used as an extremely derogatory slur often with no knowledge or care for the person's actual views. In current parlance, the term is usually followed by someone foaming at the mouth about "Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, or Kristol", and really just regurgitates the old "dual loyalty" slur that anyone favoring miltary action in the Middle East is doing it purely to put the US in "Israel's service". (And as I said back in 2002 and 2003, if the US was truly acting "for Israeli interests", Iran would have been WAY ahead of Iraq on the list).

Bottom line, this term "neoconservative" is really void of any real meaning. In its original incarnation, it means nothing more than "former liberal, now conservative". In it's current meaning, it is almost never used by "neoconservatives" themselves but only as a slur against those perceived to be same.

Then again, most political labels are similarly vapid.

69charger

OutOfBreath wrote:

If i got the sequence of things correct here, the current hostilities went something like this:

some palestinian faction kidnaps 1 soldier
Israel invades Gaza and bombs their power plant
Hezbollah kidnaps 2 more soldiers
Israel bombs Lebanon
Hezbollah fires missiles at northern Israeli cities
Israel bombs evrything in Lebanon
Hezbollah fires more missiles
etc etc

Am I alone in thinking that someone overreacts here?

"You wanna get Capone? Here's how you get him. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the fucking morgue! That's the Chicago way. And that's how you get Capone!"

Sean Connery - The Untouchables

"No matter how big a guy might be, Nicky would take him on. You beat Nicky with fists, he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And you beat him with a gun, you better kill him, because he'll keep comin' back and back until one of you is dead."

Robert DeNiro - Casino

rebornFixer

Nakedeye66 wrote:

"Neoconservatism" has become void of all meaning.

When the term arose in the 1960s, and I don't recall the pundit, it was explained as "a liberal having been mugged by reality". It might have been Norman Podhoretz, but I'm not certain. Basically, it meant little more than former radicals and liberals who became conservative as their peers lurched further left. A concept which is often embedded in the aging process and hardly a political movement. As Churchill once said:

"Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain.”

I'm often amused by that quote, as I turn 40 next month and have drifted right a bit, while as a 20 year old I was extremely liberal and damn fired up about it. But when people speak of "neoconservative" today, it usually means 1 of 2 things.

First, those who espouse those views tend to have a conservative foreign policy view combined with an utterly non-conservative, Wilsonian idealism that seeks to intervene everywhere and mold the world in our image. While I sort of respect the idealism and strategic goals, I think this view (as best expemplified by our Iraqi adventure) is anti-conservative by being overly naive and ambitious, and not always in American self-interest. It really reflects liberal activism by conservative thinkers.

The second way the term is used, is an unflattering slur against pundits, think-tankers, politicians, Bush supporters, and Iraqi war supporters with Jewish surnames. It's used as an extremely derogatory slur often with no knowledge or care for the person's actual views. In current parlance, the term is usually followed by someone foaming at the mouth about "Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, or Kristol", and really just regurgitates the old "dual loyalty" slur that anyone favoring miltary action in the Middle East is doing it purely to put the US in "Israel's service". (And as I said back in 2002 and 2003, if the US was truly acting "for Israeli interests", Iran would have been WAY ahead of Iraq on the list).

Bottom line, this term "neoconservative" is really void of any real meaning. In its original incarnation, it means nothing more than "former liberal, now conservative". In it's current meaning, it is almost never used by "neoconservatives" themselves but only as a slur against those perceived to be same.

Then again, most political labels are similarly vapid.

Holy shit, that was an interesting read. Hmmm ... Neo-cons as a blend of conservative views with liberal activism? That fits so well that's its scary.

I also have to confess something ... If you stretch that definition far enough, it probably encompasses a lot of my political views. I often feel like a liberal who got bitchslapped by reality, with said bitchslap changing my views on some issues. Of course, if you stretch it far enough, it becomes devoid of any real meaning, much like nakedeye said. Politics should be more about issues and less about labels.

floyd1975

reborncareerist wrote:

Politics should be more about issues and less about labels.

I would settle for governing being more about issues than labels. I don't think the political side of things can eliminate labels.

rebornFixer

zstillings wrote:

I would settle for governing being more about issues than labels. I don't think the political side of things can eliminate labels.

I guess labels have a utilitarian value in a democratic society, where people need a shorthand to guide voting decisions. Or course, the issues themselves could provide that basis as well.
I guess what you really do need labels for is organization. While I find political parties to be a somewhat undesirable concept in many ways, they are probably a necessary evil, and you need to call a coallition of like minded people something.

ruud

hello all im here im a pj fan from lebanon, fully lebanese and im at my computer in the north of lebanon. what i can tell you right now is very few things you dont know already other than the bad news that cnn puts out there for everyone. its been a heck of a weekend for all people still in beirut and those out trying to elave through syria or by evacuation. well then there are those who cant go...what do they do? we'er all here sitting and waiting for our government to do something, but guess what they cant. thats why people have been crying out for someone outside to interfere, israel has been harsh on the civilians in lebanon elaving as usual more of us dead than the actualy enemy and us who have to suffer in the long run. lebanon has een the battleground for the wars of the arab nations and israel for years now and everytime our country builds up again it gets crushed.
just last week, even though music prefernce isnt the issue at the moment but the progress of our economy, sean paul and paul van dyke and snoop dog were all planning on visiting lebanon and tickets had been bought and shows set up. everything was great but once again the miltia and terrorist groups in the south who have been threatening for so long finally released there anger..but towards who..israel... they believe that because of their support from Iran and Syria that they have the power to bring down israel..well they are wrong..because as i can tell you from isnide lebanon all they have done is ironically kill more more of their people than actual israeli's and for that matter more civilians than actual followers of Hizballah. the south has been bomb relentlessly 10 days as the consequence of firing rockets and kidnapping 2 israeli soldiers and hizballah have yet to threaten israel at all only the future of lebanon, if any exists. I cannot say i am exactly israel because i do blame compleltly these actions on Hizballah, but the inhumane and disgraceful ways that israel choose to retaliate have left me speechless.
help is needed help is wanted and it has to stop. i want a country and i do not want another iraq, and i can say the entire world doesnt want another iraq with the americans and israelis on one side and the arab world on the other suffereing silently.
thank you for reading.

thankyougrandma

ruud wrote:

hello all im here im a pj fan from lebanon, fully lebanese and im at my computer in the north of lebanon. what i can tell you right now is very few things you dont know already other than the bad news that cnn puts out there for everyone. its been a heck of a weekend for all people still in beirut and those out trying to elave through syria or by evacuation. well then there are those who cant go...what do they do? we'er all here sitting and waiting for our government to do something, but guess what they cant. thats why people have been crying out for someone outside to interfere, israel has been harsh on the civilians in lebanon elaving as usual more of us dead than the actualy enemy and us who have to suffer in the long run. lebanon has een the battleground for the wars of the arab nations and israel for years now and everytime our country builds up again it gets crushed.
just last week, even though music prefernce isnt the issue at the moment but the progress of our economy, sean paul and paul van dyke and snoop dog were all planning on visiting lebanon and tickets had been bought and shows set up. everything was great but once again the miltia and terrorist groups in the south who have been threatening for so long finally released there anger..but towards who..israel... they believe that because of their support from Iran and Syria that they have the power to bring down israel..well they are wrong..because as i can tell you from isnide lebanon all they have done is ironically kill more more of their people than actual israeli's and for that matter more civilians than actual followers of Hizballah. the south has been bomb relentlessly 10 days as the consequence of firing rockets and kidnapping 2 israeli soldiers and hizballah have yet to threaten israel at all only the future of lebanon, if any exists. I cannot say i am exactly israel because i do blame compleltly these actions on Hizballah, but the inhumane and disgraceful ways that israel choose to retaliate have left me speechless.
help is needed help is wanted and it has to stop. i want a country and i do not want another iraq, and i can say the entire world doesnt want another iraq with the americans and israelis on one side and the arab world on the other suffereing silently.
thank you for reading.

no, thank you for posting, be safe, really really feel bad for your situation... bad is not even the accurate word...

rebornFixer

ruud wrote:

hello all im here im a pj fan from lebanon, fully lebanese and im at my computer in the north of lebanon. what i can tell you right now is very few things you dont know already other than the bad news that cnn puts out there for everyone. its been a heck of a weekend for all people still in beirut and those out trying to elave through syria or by evacuation. well then there are those who cant go...what do they do? we'er all here sitting and waiting for our government to do something, but guess what they cant. thats why people have been crying out for someone outside to interfere, israel has been harsh on the civilians in lebanon elaving as usual more of us dead than the actualy enemy and us who have to suffer in the long run. lebanon has een the battleground for the wars of the arab nations and israel for years now and everytime our country builds up again it gets crushed.
just last week, even though music prefernce isnt the issue at the moment but the progress of our economy, sean paul and paul van dyke and snoop dog were all planning on visiting lebanon and tickets had been bought and shows set up. everything was great but once again the miltia and terrorist groups in the south who have been threatening for so long finally released there anger..but towards who..israel... they believe that because of their support from Iran and Syria that they have the power to bring down israel..well they are wrong..because as i can tell you from isnide lebanon all they have done is ironically kill more more of their people than actual israeli's and for that matter more civilians than actual followers of Hizballah. the south has been bomb relentlessly 10 days as the consequence of firing rockets and kidnapping 2 israeli soldiers and hizballah have yet to threaten israel at all only the future of lebanon, if any exists. I cannot say i am exactly israel because i do blame compleltly these actions on Hizballah, but the inhumane and disgraceful ways that israel choose to retaliate have left me speechless.
help is needed help is wanted and it has to stop. i want a country and i do not want another iraq, and i can say the entire world doesnt want another iraq with the americans and israelis on one side and the arab world on the other suffereing silently.
thank you for reading.

No, thank you for posting ... Man, I don't know what to say. I feel for ya, I really do. Check in again, if you can, and let us know that you are OK.