When you base morality on faith and reason, you admit that you do not have all of the answers, but you know where they come from.
Science may fail to explain the existence of God, but science cannot explain everything.
Science cannot explain some things that exist.
Science may not explain God.
Therefore, God may exist.
That's my own personal simplified argument for the existence of God. Science cannot explain the existence of life. It can explain evolution, but it cannot explain what caused evolution to begin. Experiments cannot replicate the beginnings of evolution.
Science cannot explain the milliseconds immediately preceding the big bang. Time can only be accounted for up to a certain point after the big bang.
Science cannot explain why many things exist. But, is that science's job? Is science not merely a creation of man, which is meant for us to better understand the physical world? How can it help us understand the spiritual world, if we do indeed believe that it exists? There are many people who believe in the spiritual - why can't science help them?
God consistently reveals himself to humanity in any number of ways. He reveals morality through scripture and teaching, but he also created mankind with a purpose. Christians believe that this purpose and morality can never contradict one another. This is the reason part of it. When God says something is wrong, it is not only wrong because he said so but also because, if that something was right, it would be contrary to reason.
Muslims believe that God can say something is right even if it is contrary to reason. They believe that it was moral when Muhammad encouraged the murder of innocent women and children. If Allah says this is moral, then Islam must be irrational since Allah also created mankind. Surely Allah would not encourage innocent people to be killed or else mankind would cease to be. Surely Allah created mankind so that mankind would live and not immediately die out.
There are Muslims who attempt to align faith and reason in their religion. But, this is impossible. God cannot say that murdering innocents is moral if he also created those innocents.
So, I realize that science cannot explain faith, but science cannot explain many things. Therefore, we shouldn't discount faith entirely, unless it is faith without reason. In Christianity, faith and reason run together seamlessly.
I'll just point you here again. This guy can explain why there is no reasoning in any religion a hell of a lot better than I ever could. At least he has me convinced. I would dispute him if I could.
I honestly believe that religion spawned from centuries of reason. But over more centuries still it has become distorted into religion. I mean, I think the "original" events that happened, or stories if they were, were used as examples of moral rights and wrongs. But somewhere a long the way it skewed off into this God tangent and all this metaphysics and mysticism was fitted in. Now it's basically a bunch of lies and illogical morals. :cool:
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
"…I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are reconciled by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
The problem here I see is that you guys assume that reason and faith are reconciled by a truth beyond our understanding. There is no evidence for this, only human hope.
"…I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are reconciled by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
God can not explain how God began. That's the major flaw in all that ID theory.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'll just point you here again. This guy can explain why there is no reasoning in any religion a hell of a lot better than I ever could. At least he has me convinced. I would dispute him if I could.
Harris is simply making too many assumptions about scripture encouraging violent extremism.
It really isn't a very intellectual exchange at all. Just a lot of assumptions about what religious fanatics believe and how moderately religious people cannot be so.
Every religious person should be 100% religious. They should be extreme. Does that mean they should kill non-believers or discriminate against others? Of course not, and it is highly ignorant of him to suggest so. The Bible teaches no such thing. He should try reading the Bible again.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Science can not explain that god does or does not exist.
Neither can God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I can actually prove that God does not exist. God is impossible. But you will take the other side.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
God can not explain how God began. That's the major flaw in all that ID theory.
You are thinking like an Aquinian, not as a supporter of ID.
God exists outside of time and space; therefore, he cannot be put into chronological order. Such as: first this happened, then God happened.
This is the problem that all atheists encounter: they attempt to use science to explain God. God designed our physical world. We merely attempt to explain it with science.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
When you base morality on faith and reason, you admit that you do not have all of the answers, but you know where they come from.
Here's the 4.5 again....
When you say that "you do not have all the answers, but you know where they come from", you've abandoned reason because you can't even know that from. Understand? You've made a huge assumption that God (or whatever) exists and is an arbiter of morality or "answers". You cannot prove that, or even begin to prove that.
If I told you that underground-dwelling Martians had those "answers", would you accept my marriage between faith and reason?
Science may fail to explain the existence of God, but science cannot explain everything.
Science cannot explain some things that exist.
Science may not explain God.
Therefore, God may exist.
God certainly may exist!!! I wouldn't tell you otherwise.
That's my own personal simplified argument for the existence of God. Science cannot explain the existence of life. It can explain evolution, but it cannot explain what caused evolution to begin. Experiments cannot replicate the beginnings of evolution.
Science can explain what caused evolution to begin. Read Richard Dawkins' books.
Science cannot explain the milliseconds immediately preceding the big bang. Time can only be accounted for up to a certain point after the big bang.
Science has not yet found those answers. However, I'd encourage you to explore the works of Brian Greene and other string theorists that do make attempts at explaining those concepts.
Science cannot explain why many things exist. But, is that science's job?
No. Science's job is the serve man in his pursuit of understanding. It is not the "job" of science to explain everything. It is only to answer the questions asked.
Is science not merely a creation of man, which is meant for us to better understand the physical world?
Of course.
How can it help us understand the spiritual world, if we do indeed believe that it exists?
The same way it helps you understand the non-spiritual world -- namely by describing the laws underlying and attributes comprising its existence.
There are many people who believe in the spiritual - why can't science help them?
It depends on what you mean. Science will not help you make 2+2 = 4.5. In that case science only helps you by showing you your error. However, science can help you describe the spiritual aspects of the world that may actually exist.
God consistently reveals himself to humanity in any number of ways. He reveals morality through scripture and teaching, but he also created mankind with a purpose. Christians believe that this purpose and morality can never contradict one another. This is the reason part of it. When God says something is wrong, it is not only wrong because he said so but also because, if that something was right, it would be contrary to reason.
That seems odd since God's scriptures and teachings are often contradictory to themselves, as well as reason.
Muslims believe that God can say something is right even if it is contrary to reason.
Is this not precisely the same as your God's proclamation that he is infallible?
They believe that it was moral when Muhammad encouraged the murder of innocent women and children.
Do you not believe it was moral when your God sanctioned murder of innocent women and children (Deuteronomy 7:1-6), or when he damned all of humanity with Original Sin, based on the acts of 2?
If Allah says this is moral, then Islam must be irrational since Allah also created mankind. Surely Allah would not encourage innocent people to be killed or else mankind to cease to be. Surely Allah created mankind so that mankind would live and not immediately die out.
Ditto for Christianity.
There are Muslims who attempt to align faith and reason in their religion. But, this is impossible. God cannot say that murdering innocents is moral if he also created those innocents.
Your God has done the same.
So, I realize that science cannot explain faith, but science cannot explain many things. Therefore, we shouldn't discount faith entirely, unless it is faith without reason. In Christianity, faith and reason run together seamlessly.
Faith and reason do not run together "seamlessly", not even close. One need only to look at the progress of Christian Dogma over the last 2000 years to realize that they do not run together at all.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You are thinking like an Aquinian, not as a supporter of ID.
God exists outside of time and space; therefore, he cannot be put into chronological order. Such as: first this happened, then God happened.
This is the problem that all atheists encounter: they attempt to use science to explain God. God designed our physical world. We merely attempt to explain it with science.
Nothing exists outside of time and space, or else I can walk through walls. Trust me, several people have tried, and the walls just don't allow you to walk through them.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
You are thinking like an Aquinian, not as a supporter of ID.
God exists outside of time and space; therefore, he cannot be put into chronological order. Such as: first this happened, then God happened.
This is the problem that all atheists encounter: they attempt to use science to explain God. God designed our physical world. We merely attempt to explain it with science.
You know, if God exists outside of the realm of time and space, then there is no such thing as Free Will. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
You know, if God exists outside of the realm of time and space, then there is no such thing as Free Will. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
There is no such thing as free-will and without free-will there is certainly no God.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
"…I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are reconciled by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
Odd that Andrew Sullivan didn't say this:
"I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are completely negated by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding"
or this:
"I do see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since reason is the only acceptable answer, judged by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
In other words, do you not find it strange that this "Truth" is admittedly "beyond our understanding", yet he still declares it's purpose ("the marriage of faith and reason")?????
Nothing exists outside of time and space, or else I can walk through walls. Trust me, several people have tried, and the walls just don't allow you to walk through them.
Yea, Brian Greene can do it with some cool special effects. But he can't actually do it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
When you say that "you do not have all the answers, but you know where they come from", you've abandoned reason because you can't even know that from. Understand? You've made a huge assumption that God (or whatever) exists and is an arbiter of morality or "answers". You cannot prove that, or even begin to prove that.
If I told you that underground-dwelling Martians had those "answers", would you accept my marriage between faith and reason?
Science can prove whether underground-dwelling Martians exist.
It cannot prove whether or not God exists.
When you attempt to put God into a box and say, "hey the Bible says THIS but then it also says THIS," you are limiting God in your own human understanding.
When you were 5 years old, you saw the world a certain way with a certain level of knowledge. Now you see it differently with a greater level of knowledge. Why? You matured. This is intellectual maturity.
The same goes for our spiritual development. You have the spiritual education of a 5 year old right now, and it is because you have no faith. Your soul has remained spiritually stagnant. Faith is developed and not handed out for free. A relationship with God reveals Him to be true over time and through His many interactions with our souls. When you deny the existence of the soul, you deny it the ability to grow to greater understandings of God's love.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Yea, Brian Greene can do it with some cool special effects. But he can't actually do it.
Anyone can do it, with enough tries. Everytime you walk into a wall, there's a non-zero chance that you'll go right through it. You'll probably need to live for about 10,000 years and do nothing but walk into walls, but eventually you'll get it.
"I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are completely negated by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding"
or this:
"I do see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since reason is the only acceptable answer, judged by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
In other words, do you not find it strange that this "Truth" is admittedly "beyond our understanding", yet he still declares it's purpose ("the marriage of faith and reason")?????
You strike me as a nihilist. You seem to doubt more often than not.
Philosophically, are you a skeptic?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Science can prove whether underground-dwelling Martians exist.
Not if they exist "outside space and time", apparently.
It cannot prove whether or not God exists.
No. It cannot prove the unproveable.
When you attempt to put God into a box and say, "hey the Bible says THIS but then it also says THIS," you are limiting God in your own human understanding.
Hehe...so in other words don't bother to read the bible. Gotcha.
When you were 5 years old, you saw the world a certain way with a certain level of knowledge. Now you see it differently with a greater level of knowledge. Why? You matured. This is intellectual maturity.
When I was 5, I believed in God.
The same goes for our spiritual development. You have the spiritual education of a 5 year old right now, and it is because you have no faith. Your soul has remained spiritually stagnant. Faith is developed and not handed out for free. A relationship with God reveals Him to be true over time and through His many interactions with our souls. When you deny the existence of the soul, you deny it the ability to grow to greater understandings of God's love.
Science can prove whether underground-dwelling Martians exist.
It cannot prove whether or not God exists.
When you attempt to put God into a box and say, "hey the Bible says THIS but then it also says THIS," you are limiting God in your own human understanding.
When you were 5 years old, you saw the world a certain way with a certain level of knowledge. Now you see it differently with a greater level of knowledge. Why? You matured. This is intellectual maturity.
The same goes for our spiritual development. You have the spiritual education of a 5 year old right now, and it is because you have no faith. Your soul has remained spiritually stagnant. Faith is developed and not handed out for free. A relationship with God reveals Him to be true over time and through His many interactions with our souls. When you deny the existence of the soul, you deny it the ability to grow to greater understandings of God's love.
That is actually the development of pyschosis you are talking about.
The brain is the command center of the human. If the brain says "You feel pain" then you feel pain, it doesn't take a prick for that. If the brain says "You feel God" you feel God, it doesn't take a God for that. All it takes is hard determination. Seriously, there have been people that tried so hard to do something supernatural that they succeeded, but only in their minds.
One person I read, said you can make a glowing Ki ball like Dragonball Z. All you have to do is sit for several hours at a time for several months and concentrate on making a Ki ball and eventually you will.
That's called becoming demented, IMO.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Anyone can do it, with enough tries. Everytime you walk into a wall, there's a non-zero chance that you'll go right through it. You'll probably need to live for about 10,000 years and do nothing but walk into walls, but eventually you'll get it.
Oh right right, I forgot about that.
That's from that video on string theory, the something universe.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
For the same reason children want their parents' love. Why do children want to be loved?
Because they are weak and scared.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
I'll just point you here again. This guy can explain why there is no reasoning in any religion a hell of a lot better than I ever could. At least he has me convinced. I would dispute him if I could.
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/209/story_20904.html
I honestly believe that religion spawned from centuries of reason. But over more centuries still it has become distorted into religion. I mean, I think the "original" events that happened, or stories if they were, were used as examples of moral rights and wrongs. But somewhere a long the way it skewed off into this God tangent and all this metaphysics and mysticism was fitted in. Now it's basically a bunch of lies and illogical morals. :cool:
The problem here I see is that you guys assume that reason and faith are reconciled by a truth beyond our understanding. There is no evidence for this, only human hope.
God can not explain how God began. That's the major flaw in all that ID theory.
Harris is simply making too many assumptions about scripture encouraging violent extremism.
It really isn't a very intellectual exchange at all. Just a lot of assumptions about what religious fanatics believe and how moderately religious people cannot be so.
Every religious person should be 100% religious. They should be extreme. Does that mean they should kill non-believers or discriminate against others? Of course not, and it is highly ignorant of him to suggest so. The Bible teaches no such thing. He should try reading the Bible again.
-Enoch Powell
Science can not explain that god does or does not exist.
Neither can God.
hes divinely inspired countless books
You are thinking like an Aquinian, not as a supporter of ID.
God exists outside of time and space; therefore, he cannot be put into chronological order. Such as: first this happened, then God happened.
This is the problem that all atheists encounter: they attempt to use science to explain God. God designed our physical world. We merely attempt to explain it with science.
-Enoch Powell
Here's the 4.5 again....
When you say that "you do not have all the answers, but you know where they come from", you've abandoned reason because you can't even know that from. Understand? You've made a huge assumption that God (or whatever) exists and is an arbiter of morality or "answers". You cannot prove that, or even begin to prove that.
If I told you that underground-dwelling Martians had those "answers", would you accept my marriage between faith and reason?
God certainly may exist!!! I wouldn't tell you otherwise.
Science can explain what caused evolution to begin. Read Richard Dawkins' books.
Science has not yet found those answers. However, I'd encourage you to explore the works of Brian Greene and other string theorists that do make attempts at explaining those concepts.
No. Science's job is the serve man in his pursuit of understanding. It is not the "job" of science to explain everything. It is only to answer the questions asked.
Of course.
The same way it helps you understand the non-spiritual world -- namely by describing the laws underlying and attributes comprising its existence.
It depends on what you mean. Science will not help you make 2+2 = 4.5. In that case science only helps you by showing you your error. However, science can help you describe the spiritual aspects of the world that may actually exist.
That seems odd since God's scriptures and teachings are often contradictory to themselves, as well as reason.
Is this not precisely the same as your God's proclamation that he is infallible?
Do you not believe it was moral when your God sanctioned murder of innocent women and children (Deuteronomy 7:1-6), or when he damned all of humanity with Original Sin, based on the acts of 2?
Ditto for Christianity.
Your God has done the same.
Faith and reason do not run together "seamlessly", not even close. One need only to look at the progress of Christian Dogma over the last 2000 years to realize that they do not run together at all.
No he hasn't. That just your illusion.
Nothing exists outside of time and space, or else I can walk through walls. Trust me, several people have tried, and the walls just don't allow you to walk through them.
There is no such thing as free-will and without free-will there is certainly no God.
and the book thing, good stuff, indeed....
and some thing muslims have the crazy market cornered....:rolleyes:
Odd that Andrew Sullivan didn't say this:
"I do not see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since both are completely negated by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding"
or this:
"I do see reason as somehow in conflict with faith - since reason is the only acceptable answer, judged by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding."
In other words, do you not find it strange that this "Truth" is admittedly "beyond our understanding", yet he still declares it's purpose ("the marriage of faith and reason")?????
You can walk through walls. Read Brian Greene.
Yea, Brian Greene can do it with some cool special effects. But he can't actually do it.
Science can prove whether underground-dwelling Martians exist.
It cannot prove whether or not God exists.
When you attempt to put God into a box and say, "hey the Bible says THIS but then it also says THIS," you are limiting God in your own human understanding.
When you were 5 years old, you saw the world a certain way with a certain level of knowledge. Now you see it differently with a greater level of knowledge. Why? You matured. This is intellectual maturity.
The same goes for our spiritual development. You have the spiritual education of a 5 year old right now, and it is because you have no faith. Your soul has remained spiritually stagnant. Faith is developed and not handed out for free. A relationship with God reveals Him to be true over time and through His many interactions with our souls. When you deny the existence of the soul, you deny it the ability to grow to greater understandings of God's love.
-Enoch Powell
Anyone can do it, with enough tries. Everytime you walk into a wall, there's a non-zero chance that you'll go right through it. You'll probably need to live for about 10,000 years and do nothing but walk into walls, but eventually you'll get it.
You strike me as a nihilist. You seem to doubt more often than not.
Philosophically, are you a skeptic?
-Enoch Powell
Not if they exist "outside space and time", apparently.
No. It cannot prove the unproveable.
Hehe...so in other words don't bother to read the bible. Gotcha.
When I was 5, I believed in God.
Why would I want God's love?
That is actually the development of pyschosis you are talking about.
The brain is the command center of the human. If the brain says "You feel pain" then you feel pain, it doesn't take a prick for that. If the brain says "You feel God" you feel God, it doesn't take a God for that. All it takes is hard determination. Seriously, there have been people that tried so hard to do something supernatural that they succeeded, but only in their minds.
One person I read, said you can make a glowing Ki ball like Dragonball Z. All you have to do is sit for several hours at a time for several months and concentrate on making a Ki ball and eventually you will.
That's called becoming demented, IMO.
Oh right right, I forgot about that.
That's from that video on string theory, the something universe.
That's correct. I will doubt in equal proportion to the number of incomplete claims I hear.
No, I'm an objectivist. Skeptics are the lowest form of philosophers.
For the same reason children want their parents' love. Why do children want to be loved?
-Enoch Powell
Because they are weak and scared.
Well that's good to hear. At least you're not a damn subjectivist.
The Ayn Rand kids at my college get beat up by both the conservatives and the liberals.
-Enoch Powell
And you're strong and confident of all that you see in the world. No doubts whatsoever?? Ha.
Allowing for the existence of everything that you see and nothing that you do not.
-Enoch Powell