the Palestinians in Gaza are [/i]not[/i] under an illegal military occupation. the UN recognized that Israel had fulfilled its obligations to withdraw Gaza last year.
Please jog my memory and remind me of just how long exactly Israel managed to stay out of Gaza before it re-entered again? My memory is a bit hazy. I make it about 2 months.
I agree with both of you. Although just take a look at where all attempts at a two state solution have ended up. The U.S has unilaterally vetoed every single call for a two state solution. You're right dangerboy to say that this has been going on for so long that it just seems like a part of the culture. However, international awareness of the situation in the middle east has grown enormously over the past few years, despite the contninued efforts of the Western media to white-wash what's happening there.
i'm almost 40 years old. i'm from the US. in grade school in the 70's, i was taught about the situation there. it was already an ages-old conflict. the begin/sadat treaty happened when i was like 11 or 12. i remember it well. the world thought it was a step in the right direction. the beginning of an ending. sadat was killed because he tried to settle with the israelis. all through the 80's, the pissing contest continued. one side or the other always did something then claimed it was "retalitation". later, even arafat seemed to tire of the whole thing, coming to the table to discuss a palestinian state and a cessation of violence. my point with this little bit of background is that for at least the last 30 years, i can attest personally to having been inundated with the situation in the middle east. those who pay attention and care for world humanity have been well aware. the western media may be seen as slanting towards israel, but imho, it's only because we instinctively pull for the "underdog". the holocaust left jews in a position of having been one of the single-most shit upon groups of people in history. for me, it seemed like a small gesture to attempt to give them a homeland. i would have to agree, however, that it should not have been at the expense of others. it's a difficult undertaking, but it certainly should not have resulted in 50 years of killings...
in my lifetime, at least two more generations of palestinians and israelis have been born. each generation has renewed the hatred. it's just time to fucking stop it. all parties involved simply have two choices: coexistance, or mutual extinction...
i'm almost 40 years old. i'm from the US. in grade school in the 70's, i was taught about the situation there. it was already an ages-old conflict. the begin/sadat treaty happened when i was like 11 or 12. i remember it well. the world thought it was a step in the right direction. the beginning of an ending. sadat was killed because he tried to settle with the israelis. all through the 80's, the pissing contest continued. one side or the other always did something then claimed it was "retalitation". later, even arafat seemed to tire of the whole thing, coming to the table to discuss a palestinian state and a cessation of violence. my point with this little bit of background is that for at least the last 30 years, i can attest personally to having been inundated with the situation in the middle east. those who pay attention and care for world humanity have been well aware. the western media may be seen as slanting towards israel, but imho, it's only because we instinctively pull for the "underdog". the holocaust left jews in a position of having been one of the single-most shit upon groups of people in history. for me, it seemed like a small gesture to attempt to give them a homeland. i would have to agree, however, that it should not have been at the expense of others. it's a difficult undertaking, but it certainly should not have resulted in 50 years of killings...
in my lifetime, at least two more generations of palestinians and israelis have been born. each generation has renewed the hatred. it's just time to fucking stop it. all parties involved simply have two choices: coexistance, or mutual extinction...
I agree with all of that, execpt just one point. (And I'm not simply looking for things to argue with for the sheer sake of it. I hope it doesn't look that way?). You say that Israel is the underdog. Now in my opinion, if you have the unconditional support of the U.S, and all of it's funding - both domestic and military - $4 billion annually I believe is the figure - then you are not the underdog.
Please stop firing rockets into israel. They are (A). Far better equipped militarily than you are, (B) an unbelievably disciplined military, (c) will not lose to you. When you fire rockets into israel and then they decide to come and kick your ass, you need to stop complaining.
I agree with all of that, execpt just one point. (And I'm not simply looking for things to argue with for the sheer sake of it. I hope it doesn't look that way?). You say that Israel is the underdog. Now in my opinion, if you have the unconditional support of the U.S, and all of it's funding - both domestic and military - $4 billion annually I believe is the figure - then you are not the underdog.
the underdog tag is left over from world war 2. i am not saying that in the conflict today that they are the underdog in the sense that they are being beaten by a larger entity. i am saying that they are, and have been, viewed by many people over 30 as underdogs in general due to them being shit on by the most heinous piece of garbage known to exist in the 20th century. hitler was a bad, bad man. post-ww2 america felt that we had come to the aid of the downtrodden and helped to defeat the bad guys. jews were shit on by the third reich. 6 million gassed. knowing people whose parents or grandparents had been directly affected or killed by the nazis gave one the feeling of sympathy towards them. the money and support we give them today is an extension of that feeling. those in charge today still remember the feelings they had when they learned of the horrors that had occurred. the experiences are still first-hand, not history....
the underdog tag is left over from world war 2. i am not saying that in the conflict today that they are the underdog in the sense that they are being beaten by a larger entity. i am saying that they are, and have been, viewed by many people over 30 as underdogs in general due to them being shit on by the most heinous piece of garbage known to exist in the 20th century. hitler was a bad, bad man. post-ww2 america felt that we had come to the aid of the downtrodden and helped to defeat the bad guys. jews were shit on by the third reich. 6 million gassed. knowing people whose parents or grandparents had been directly affected or killed by the nazis gave one the feeling of sympathy towards them. the money and support we give them today is an extension of that feeling. those in charge today still remember the feelings they had when they learned of the horrors that had occurred. the experiences are still first-hand, not history....
So you believe that America's interest in Israel and the Middle East is a purely altruistic one, and has nothing to do with power politics, or natural resources?
So you believe that America's interest in Israel and the Middle East is a purely altruistic one, and has nothing to do with power politics, or natural resources?
no. initially, maybe, but the stability of the region is important to the entire world. politically, economically, etc.
stability there would mean prosperity for all. prosperity there benefits the larger global economy
but i do believe that altruism is still a major part of it for many of us. which, of course, makes it easier for those with ulterior motives to prey on our emotions
Some here seem like they are about to blow a load about the incredible military powerress of Israel.....its kinda of disturbing....
and some here seem like they are about to blow a load over how incredibly evil America and its govt and its people and what it stands for......................its more than kinda disturbing.
and some here seem like they are about to blow a load over how incredibly evil America and its govt and its people and what it stands for......................its more than kinda disturbing.
I think you'll find that there are plenty of people in the world like those you're describing.
and some here seem like they are about to blow a load over how incredibly evil America and its govt and its people and what it stands for......................its more than kinda disturbing.
At least I can admit to myself how many mistakes of come out of the hands of your leaders in teh past years...plus if you read my posts I tend to say that I envy Americans because of their patriotism and how I wish my country showed all that pride....but to drool over weaponary is twisted IMHO...to be adamant about social issues is, to me, normal.......
The blood is on both their hands for believing they can change history by blowing each other up.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Please jog my memory and remind me of just how long exactly Israel managed to stay out of Gaza before it re-entered again? My memory is a bit hazy. I make it about 2 months.
i'm almost 40 years old. i'm from the US. in grade school in the 70's, i was taught about the situation there. it was already an ages-old conflict. the begin/sadat treaty happened when i was like 11 or 12. i remember it well. the world thought it was a step in the right direction. the beginning of an ending. sadat was killed because he tried to settle with the israelis. all through the 80's, the pissing contest continued. one side or the other always did something then claimed it was "retalitation". later, even arafat seemed to tire of the whole thing, coming to the table to discuss a palestinian state and a cessation of violence. my point with this little bit of background is that for at least the last 30 years, i can attest personally to having been inundated with the situation in the middle east. those who pay attention and care for world humanity have been well aware. the western media may be seen as slanting towards israel, but imho, it's only because we instinctively pull for the "underdog". the holocaust left jews in a position of having been one of the single-most shit upon groups of people in history. for me, it seemed like a small gesture to attempt to give them a homeland. i would have to agree, however, that it should not have been at the expense of others. it's a difficult undertaking, but it certainly should not have resulted in 50 years of killings...
in my lifetime, at least two more generations of palestinians and israelis have been born. each generation has renewed the hatred. it's just time to fucking stop it. all parties involved simply have two choices: coexistance, or mutual extinction...
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
I agree with all of that, execpt just one point. (And I'm not simply looking for things to argue with for the sheer sake of it. I hope it doesn't look that way?). You say that Israel is the underdog. Now in my opinion, if you have the unconditional support of the U.S, and all of it's funding - both domestic and military - $4 billion annually I believe is the figure - then you are not the underdog.
lol....more IMHO typical MT garbage.....
Please stop firing rockets into israel. They are (A). Far better equipped militarily than you are, (B) an unbelievably disciplined military, (c) will not lose to you. When you fire rockets into israel and then they decide to come and kick your ass, you need to stop complaining.
the underdog tag is left over from world war 2. i am not saying that in the conflict today that they are the underdog in the sense that they are being beaten by a larger entity. i am saying that they are, and have been, viewed by many people over 30 as underdogs in general due to them being shit on by the most heinous piece of garbage known to exist in the 20th century. hitler was a bad, bad man. post-ww2 america felt that we had come to the aid of the downtrodden and helped to defeat the bad guys. jews were shit on by the third reich. 6 million gassed. knowing people whose parents or grandparents had been directly affected or killed by the nazis gave one the feeling of sympathy towards them. the money and support we give them today is an extension of that feeling. those in charge today still remember the feelings they had when they learned of the horrors that had occurred. the experiences are still first-hand, not history....
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
So you believe that America's interest in Israel and the Middle East is a purely altruistic one, and has nothing to do with power politics, or natural resources?
no. initially, maybe, but the stability of the region is important to the entire world. politically, economically, etc.
stability there would mean prosperity for all. prosperity there benefits the larger global economy
but i do believe that altruism is still a major part of it for many of us. which, of course, makes it easier for those with ulterior motives to prey on our emotions
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
and some here seem like they are about to blow a load over how incredibly evil America and its govt and its people and what it stands for......................its more than kinda disturbing.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
I think you'll find that there are plenty of people in the world like those you're describing.
At least I can admit to myself how many mistakes of come out of the hands of your leaders in teh past years...plus if you read my posts I tend to say that I envy Americans because of their patriotism and how I wish my country showed all that pride....but to drool over weaponary is twisted IMHO...to be adamant about social issues is, to me, normal.......
Yeah a vast majority of people.....
I agree....no "team" is more innocent than the other....regardless if they are a nation state or not.....