why mess with Israel?
miller8966
Posts: 1,450
Thats just Loco my friends...dont you know you cant win!
A member of the Palestinian Legislative Council has criticised the Israeli Army for the way it handled a siege at Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip.
Israeli tanks had surrounded the mosque where Palestinian gunmen were seeking refuge, when several hundred heavily-veiled women swarmed through their lines.
Soldiers fired into the crowd and two women were shot and killed as the gunmen escaped in the confusion.
Mustafa Barghouti says Israel must stop its attacks on civilians in Gaza.
"They killed two women but not only that, they killed 25 people most of whom are civilians," he said.
"By which justification the Israeli Army has to seize a whole city, a whole town with its tanks, with its F-16 jet fighters, attacking a civilian area that has no army, that has nothing to defend itself with?"
Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has accused Israel of carrying out massacres in full view of the world.
A spokeswoman for the Israeli Defence Force, Major Avital Leibovitch, has condemned the use of women as human shields.
She says some of the gunmen donned women's clothes to escape.
"Some of them were even dressed up as women," she said.
"As we have footage we saw it on other networks already, and actually these women served as human shields for these militants."
An Israeli Government spokesman says the shooting will be investigated and the Israeli Army is still in the town.
A member of the Palestinian Legislative Council has criticised the Israeli Army for the way it handled a siege at Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip.
Israeli tanks had surrounded the mosque where Palestinian gunmen were seeking refuge, when several hundred heavily-veiled women swarmed through their lines.
Soldiers fired into the crowd and two women were shot and killed as the gunmen escaped in the confusion.
Mustafa Barghouti says Israel must stop its attacks on civilians in Gaza.
"They killed two women but not only that, they killed 25 people most of whom are civilians," he said.
"By which justification the Israeli Army has to seize a whole city, a whole town with its tanks, with its F-16 jet fighters, attacking a civilian area that has no army, that has nothing to defend itself with?"
Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has accused Israel of carrying out massacres in full view of the world.
A spokeswoman for the Israeli Defence Force, Major Avital Leibovitch, has condemned the use of women as human shields.
She says some of the gunmen donned women's clothes to escape.
"Some of them were even dressed up as women," she said.
"As we have footage we saw it on other networks already, and actually these women served as human shields for these militants."
An Israeli Government spokesman says the shooting will be investigated and the Israeli Army is still in the town.
America...the greatest Country in the world.
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Let's see it
I'm somewhat certain this is a fairly accurate statement.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
I don't think I would.
Most antizionists are antisemites
continued oppression of the palestinian people? security threats? cause they can?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
"security threats" is correct.
"continued oppression of the palestinian people" is typical MT reflexive garbage.
Most antizionists are antisemites
you did see the question marks right? i was asking questions not stating facts.
anyone care to take a stab at why gaza exists in the first place?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Short answer or long answer?
I don't think anyone is to blame. Ideas kill, people are just the army. You can't kill and idea, only people. Both factions have an idea, they appear to conflict and quite obviously violence isn't resolving the problem.
i'll give it a go.
in May 1948, hours after declaring independence, Israel was invaded by all of its Arab neighbors including Egypt. the January 1949 armistice lines left Egypt in control of the patch of land that is now called the Gaza Strip. The Egyptians ran it like a prison, not letting anyone in or out and using the residents as political pawns. They didn't allow anyone from the overcrowded strip move to the underpopulated Sinai because their misery was and is a public relations bonanza for Arab leaders.
Most antizionists are antisemites
empirical evidence proves that the opposite of what you're saying is true. more israelis were killed in 2001 and 2002 by acts of terrorism than in the 4 years since then. what changed? israel built a security barrier and began to aggressively target all leaders of the terrorist organizations. so terrorism didn't get worse by fighting the terrorists.
when israel withdrew from gaza last year they originally planned to remain in control of the gaza-egypt border, but thanks to condi rice the israelis withdrew completely. now if you look in the news all you hear about is the flood of missiles pouring in the the strip and Hamas building an army modeled on Hezbollah. -all while they fire qassam rockets at israeli towns. -all while there weren't any soldiers or settlements in gaza at all.
ignoring everything i just wrote, let's assume the israelis are simply being 'arrogant'. what would you suggest they do?
Most antizionists are antisemites
Ooooh! Scary!! Best shoot and kill them!
I'd love for you to spend a month in the occupied territories and then come back and state that the Palestinian people aren't being oppressed. That's if you could make it out alive of course.
How simplistic. In 1948 the zionists announced the establishment of the state of israel (following conflict). This was a self-declaration not accepted by neighbouring states and therefore the conflict continued. Eventually 'agreement' was reached. The Gaza Strip was 'allocated' to Egypt. They did not run it as a prison. 3/4 of a million of palestinians who had lived in israel were expelled. Ethnic cleansing. Refugees flooded into in Gaza (where there was nothing). Bordering countries took in as many refugees as they could but (from Gaza) but there was a limit to what their country could sustain.
With this, Israel insisted that the Palestinian leadership must abandon the right of return for refugees of the conflict. This despite the fact that the legal right of all Palestinians made refugees during the 1947/48 conflict and their descendants to return to that portion of their homeland now known as Israel. So... who is stopping anyone from 'coming in'?
It is also worthwhile remembering that native Palestinian Arabs owned 94% of the land in 1947 and made up at least 69% of the population, the General Assembly's Partition Plan recommended that a Jewish state be granted 56% of Palestine (including its most fertile areas) and an Arab state 42%. Hmmm... why would the palestinians/arabs feel ripped off, I wonder?
Another point - Apart from being illegal under international law and the UN Charter, the declaration of Israel's statehood also violated the Partition Plan which stipulated that its recommended establishment of Jewish and Arab states in Palestine should not occur until two months after the end of the British Mandate.
as you implicitly acknowledge, the conflict had already been going on before israel was declared independent. the acceptance of neighboring states was not necessary, as the necessary 2/3 of the UN general assembly did approve of the partition plan in November '47. the arabs rejected this, as they had rejected every single other previous partition plan and began to attack jewish settlements. save two exceptions, the jews were on the defensive until april '48.
here you are simply and completely wrong. the egyptians would not let palestinians into sinai, fully aware that it would have alleviated the conditions in the strip. Gaza was not 'allocated' to Egypt, unless recognition of defacto military control counts as 'allocation'. Similarly, Jordan's occupation and annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by the UK and Pakistan.
intellectually dishonest. it is true that 3/4 of a million palestinians who had lived in israel became refugees. not all (or even most) of this number were actually expelled or 'ethnically cleansed'. the leaders of neighboring states, such as egypt, appealed to the arabs to flee the areas adjacent jewish communities under the understanding that they would soon return to a country cleansed of its jews. the majority of refugees fled because of inflated rumors of massacres.
more intellectual dishonesty. first, there was not nothing in gaza. for one thing, there was gaza city and other towns. but that's neither here nor there. Jordan to this date is the only country that has actually absorbed palestinian refugees into its society. in lebanon, syria, and when egypt controlled gaza, the palestinians have been kept to refugee camps in horrible conditions. i defy you to prove that egypt could not have allowed at least some palestinians to live in sinai, which is nearly empty, as opposed to gaza, which is one of the most overcrowded places on earth.
you also fail to mention that 650,000 jews were ethnically cleansed of arab lands starting in 1948. they came mainly from north african countries, yemen, syria, and iraq. they were absorbed into israel and today their descendants make up more than half of the jewish population. to this day they have not been paid reparations for their property seized or relatives murdered before they could flee. this (among other things) severely undermines the palestinian moral "right of return".
the "right of return" has been cynically invoked by arab heads of state such as nasser and assad simply as a euphemysm for the destruction of israel. in 1949 the UN set up a separate body for dealing with every single other refugee population except the palestinians, which has its own body in UNRWA. every other refugee population since then has had to live with tougher circumstances. for every other refugee population, descendants don't count.
wrong again. take a look at the British Mandate government's Survey of Palestine volume 2, page 566. Jews ownded 6-7% of Palestine's land surface, mostly along the coast. Arabs owned 20%, mostly what is today the West Bank. The rest was public or state-owned land. Given that no Arab state was established, Israel the Mandate's successor state and heir to the state lands. the partition plan set aside the parts of the land in which jews were the majority for the jews, and the parts in which arabs were the majority for the arabs. your bit about "its most fertile areas" is espeically dishonest. the arabs were given all of what is now the West Bank, which has the vast majority of the land's wells. that the jezreel valley and plain of sharon were the most fertile areas is because jewish pioneers had been cultivating that land out of swamps since the 1880's.
a stipulation and a recommendation are mutually exclusive things. if the partition plan only recommended that two months pass before delcaration of statehood, then this was certainly not binding. your accusation that israel's declaration of statehood is illegal under international law and the UN charter is a much more serious accusation, and yet you don't offer a single shred of evidence to support this polemic. why would 2/3 of the UN general assembly vote in favor of something that goes against its own charter?
the jewish state was declared in the timing and manner that it was because it was in danger of being overwhelmed by its arab neighbors before it could exist long enough to begin to absorb jewish refugees from europe (and later, as i mentioned, from the rest of the middle east).
Most antizionists are antisemites
recent history has shown that veiled women can be just as dangerous as overtly armed men. when you're concerned with your own safety, and your opponent has proven that they will use women and children as homicide bombers, you can't afford to just give everyone a free pass based on appearance or gender. and whoever might be protecting snipers, by whatever means, put themselves in a position to become a target...
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
They're operating in the Gaza strip committing war crimes against civilians under the pretext that they are trying to prevent missile attacks into Israel. There's nothing new here. Israel has never accepted any form of peace and never will, because it's only interested in grabbing more and more land. Anyone who can honestly portray Israel as the victim in any of this is either an idiot, or is a blatant racist.
i wish your memory could span the gap between when you read a post and when you respond to it. my post that you responded to was in response specifically to the proposition made by catefrances that israeli troops are now in gaza simply to "oprress the palestinian people".
if you had spent any of the months between august '05 and june '06 in the palestinian territory of Gaza, where during that time there were no israelis but rather self-rule (or a palestinian version of self-rule) you would see that not every palestinian misery is israel's fault, and not every palestinian act of war is one of "resistance to occupation."
Most antizionists are antisemites
Your comment is meaningless. The Israeli army had surrounded a mosque and were intent on massacring those inside. These women came along in order to present a cover under which to let those inside the mosque escape. Under your logic, Israel should kill anyone who wears a veil, just in case they happen to be armed. Better still, just kill all Palestinians outright, including women and children, just in case they may happen to be armed. (Oh, wait a minute, you already are!)This thinking was derived from the Nazis who decided that all Jewish children should be killed in order to prevent them growing up and becoming a threat to the Reich.
yeah, cuz there's no basis in fact for worrying about missiles being fired into israel from gaza, right? and if by "grabbing more land" you mean having israeli troops force their own people out of settlements in gaza, i guess you're right. anyone who can honestly portray the plo and hamas and hezbollah as victims in any of this is either an idiot, or a blatant anti-semite.
the palestinians have never offered any kind of peace for israel to accept. even in times of cease-fire or truce, some faction takes it upon itself to start up again. as long as israel exists, that's the way it seems things will be. if israel were left completely alone, do you really believe they would seek out conflict with the arabs? why? wouldn't everyone benefit from peace?
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
you misinterpret and misrepresent what i was saying. i didn't say kill everyone. i said they have a right to be suspicious. anyone who assists an enemy can be considered an enemy as well. even if they are women in veils.
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
To test this delusional theory, the palestinians would have to stop firing missiles into israel to see if israel, deprived of its "pretext" would still go into gaza. I'm not holding my breath. -Oh wait, there is another way to test this delusional theory. How's about last year, when Israel sat on its hands for months and didnt respond at all while Palestinians firied missiles at towns, and only reentered the strip when Hamas first entered sovereign Israeli territory, killing two soldiers and kidnapping a third?
Then what about the peace treaty with Egypt, in which Israel relinquished a mass of land twice the size of Israel itself? This seems to go against your logic, no? Moreover, Sinai had billions of dollars worth of oil. Gaza is a shithole that nobody wants.
I think you're both. -Given your demonstrably delusional logic and obsession with the actions of the Jewish state while other states commit real war crimes and you don't utter a peep of sanctimonious outrage.
Most antizionists are antisemites
catefrances didn't say that israeli troops are now in gaza simply to "oprress the palestinian people". He gave that as just one of the reasons.
As far as not Palestinian's misery not being all israel's fault, your comment is irrelevant. The Palestinians are under an illegal military occupation.
'Gaza is a prison where 79 percent of households live in poverty, and children scavenge through dumpsters. It is also an Israeli target range, where schools, bridges and electric plants have been destroyed.
In the West Bank, Israel continues to expand its settlements and build its wall deep inside Palestinian territory, destroying dozens of Christian and Muslim Palestinian communities. Meanwhile, Palestinians are the first occupied population to be placed under international sanctions.'
Your comment is the equivalent an Israeli standing on the neck of a Palestinian and saying that he must renounce violence, and that he must stop struggling and just accept his condition.
welcome to the arab world.
Most antizionists are antisemites
Were's your eveidence that any armed fighters called for the protection of unarmed women? From all accounts, it wasn't a mystery to anyone in the area that the Israeli's had a mosque surrouded and were more than likely going to murder everyone inside. Those women went there of their own accord in an act of bravery.
Still, nice assumption.
I see your point, to some extent, but you must admit that violence resistence (if you want to use that term) does absolutely nothing but get more Palestinians killed. At what point does a different tactic get tried? You're not sickened by the fact that a bunch of men with guns called out a bunch of unarmed women to defend them? How well is the armed resistence working, really?! What a bunch of cowards. There's fighting a guerilla battle against a larger army, and then there's hiding in mosques behind a bunch of women.
Please enlighten us as to what months these were exactly. It's just we don't want anyone here on this board getting the wrong impression and thinking that you may be talking utter shit.
Well, you're making a nice assumption yourself, so nice work calling out mine. WTF? You're assuming that the Israelis did not surround combatants, right? And you're assuming that the goal was to "murder everyone inside", which is probably not accurate. If that WAS the goal, they'd have just blown the thing up and not worried too much about going in. Maybe its time for these guys to hide somewhere else.
right. and i felt obliged to point out how wrong that is.
broken record. that last sentence is irrelevant. the Palestinians in Gaza are [/i]not[/i] under an illegal military occupation. the UN recognized that Israel had fulfilled its obligations to withdraw Gaza last year. so once again, Palestinian acts of war in Gaza completely lack any legitimacy that you could argue for the Pals in the West Bank. Disengagement was their chance to start to take some responsibility for themselves and build a life in the Strip. Instead, they have turned Gaza into another Souhern Lebanon.
the rest of that post was typical polemic not worth taking apart bit by bit, since i know it already has been time and again.
Most antizionists are antisemites