You're not sickened by the fact that a bunch of men with guns called out a bunch of unarmed women to defend them?
Please provide some evidence that these men who were surrounded inside a mosque managed, in between dodging bullets, to garner the support of two hundred women.
Please provide some evidence that these men who were surrounded inside a mosque managed, in between dodging bullets, to garner the support of two hundred women.
Sure ... As soon as you provide some evidence that the Israelis were going to murder everyone in the mosque, and that this somehow led a bunch of women to take it upon themselves to stand up to tanks and machine guns. In fact, if indeed they assumed that everyone was going to be killed, why on Earth did they use the shield tactic in the first place? Obviously there was some intent to protect someone ... Why bother if everyone is going to die anyway?
Israel is annexing valuable land and the major resources of the West Bank and taking over the Jordan Valley so what’s left is imprisoned. Of course it controls air space and so on. The rest is being broken up by infrastructure projects and settlement into pretty much separated cantons, which will be unviable, that’s the idea. They have little contact with one another and none with the outside world except through Israeli passages. They’re virtually separated from whatever small sector of Jerusalem would be left to Palestinians. Jerusalem is the center, has always been the center, of Palestinian commercial, educational, cultural life. So that essentially ends any hope for Palestinian national rights. All of this is totally illegal, in violation of Security Council orders, in violation of a unanimous World Court ruling, despite what is said even the US justice, who didn’t go along, but did agree with this part that it’s all illegal.
That’s happening right now. And that’s the core of the problem.
Gaza was devastated under Israeli rule. It’s now described accurately by Israeli human rights activists as the biggest prison in the world; totally encircled, no way in or out. And Israel freely carries out regular atrocities there. And of course after Palestinians voted the wrong way in a free election last January the US and Israel instantly determined that they would punish the population—punish the population because you didn’t vote the way we told you to. That’s a good indication of what Bush’s democracy promotion project that everyone talks about. It exists totally in rhetoric. In fact, there isn’t a particle of truth to it. And this is a good illustration of ‘you vote the wrong way, we punish you… with embargo, with cutting of funding, with any way we can’.
And the atrocities continued. Just to give you some examples: In June, forty people were killed by Israeli forces, 36 in Gaza, four in the West Bank where the killings aren’t as high, it’s just mostly takeover. That was June. On June 24, an incident took place which is nonexistent for Western opinion but is existent for people who pay attention to the world.
On June 24, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza city, the Muammar brothers. They claimed they’re militants, whatever that means, but they can claim anything they like. They kidnapped them, abducted them, and took them to Israel. They’re now off somewhere hidden in the Israeli prison system. It was barely mentioned in the west. Editors knew about it. No doubt they knew about it. Like there were 87 words in the Washington Post. So it was certainly known. It was in the Israeli press, IDF handouts, no question about the fact. But the West just doesn’t care about kidnapping; it’s fine, as long as our side does it. So no reaction, no comment, nothing.
June 25th, the next day, Hamas captured an Israeli soldier. You can’t kidnap soldiers, you can capture them. But by definition you can’t kidnap them as was pointed out a couple of days ago by a US military historian in the LA Times. So they captured an Israeli soldier. That led to a huge reaction in the West, a major atrocity. Israel quickly launched attacks, serious attacks. In June in Gaza, thirty-six people were killed. In July it was probably about 170 according to UN sources. And that was all approved in the West, in the United States particularly, because we can’t stand outrageous kidnapping.
The kidnapping of civilians is a much worse crime than capturing a solider, especially a soldier in an army that’s attacking your country, which is what is happening. But that doesn’t register in the West, particularly the United States, but the West in general. On July 12th, Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, killed three, and five others were killed in Lebanon. That again led to huge outrage. A major US-Israeli invasion—of course it’s the US—destroyed half of Lebanon, killed over a thousand people, a large part of the country’s wiped out, all over the place.
That was fine. ‘Disproportionate’ is the most that anyone could say. Israel’s been kidnapping and abducting Lebanese for decades. We don’t know how many because no one looks. There was a secret prison discovered in Israel three years ago, worse than Guantanamo, totally secret. The secret prison was never even reported in the United States. It was in Israel and in Europe. And it was full of Lebanese.
Given your demonstrably delusional logic and obsession with the actions of the Jewish state while other states commit real war crimes and you don't utter a peep of sanctimonious outrage.
Please give an example of a 'real war crime', as opposed to an 'unreal war crime'.
calling terrorists "civilians" simply because they are not part of a state army is a massive mischaracterization. is osama bin laden a "civilian"? maybe, techinically speaking. but when you attack, your targets are not going to bother to check to see if you're part of an official state military before they respond...
Please provide some evidence that these men who were surrounded inside a mosque managed, in between dodging bullets, to garner the support of two hundred women.
this was taken from an AP article in jpost-
"A separate 19-hour standoff in northern Gaza between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen who had barricaded themselves inside a mosque ended in the deaths of eight Palestinians.
On Friday morning, Al Aqsa Radio, the local Hamas station, broadcast appeals to women to come to the rescue of the trapped gunmen. Hundreds responded, many of them Hamas supporters dressed in long robes and headscarves. The women marched toward the mosque, coming under Israeli fire at times, and approached armored personnel carriers and bulldozers stationed near the mosque.
Two women, both age 40, were shot dead, and at least 10 others were wounded, hospital officials said.
The IDF said that it suspected that some Palestinian gunmen had dressed up as women in order to foil the army's attempts to enter the mosque.
The army said the gunmen inside the mosque were able to take advantage of the demonstration to escape because there weren't enough infantrymen to block the protesters from approaching the building, and troops didn't want to shoot into the crowd.
The army said troops spotted two militants hiding in the crowd of women and opened fire, hitting the two.
As the women rushed away from the scene, at least two men disguised in women's clothes were seen in the crowd. Jubilant bystanders embraced them, celebrating their escape."
Now unless you want to start in on how inherently false the Israeli media is, the story of the mosque and the human shields is settled, and that background info you pulled out of your ass is just that- excrement.
calling terrorists "civilians" simply because they are not part of a state army is a massive mischaracterization. is osama bin laden a "civilian"? maybe, techinically speaking. but when you attack, your targets are not going to bother to check to see if you're part of an official state military before they respond...
That's interesting. I take it that what you're trying to say is that all Palestinians are terrorists? Correct me if I'm wrong.
That's interesting. I take it that what you're trying to say is that all Palestinians are terrorists? Correct me if I'm wrong.
you're wrong. i said what i was trying to say.
i don't believe every single palenstinian is actively participating in attacking israel. in fact, i'd bet there are a fair number of them who wish the whole conflict would just stop
When was this, 1946? I thought we talking about the present?
ok now you're just embarrassing yourself. i'm talking about the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, signed in '77 and fully implemented in '82.
Please give an example of a 'real war crime', as opposed to an 'unreal war crime'.
an example of a real war crime is... chechnya 160,000 dead in just over a decade.
that's more than the total number of israelis and arabs combined killed in the past 6 decades.
and let's not forget about Sudan in Darfur, China systematically erasing Tibet, and the decades-long civil war in the Congo. I guess all that's missing to draw your outrage is the Jews.
'On Friday morning, Al Aqsa Radio, the local Hamas station, broadcast appeals to women to come to the rescue of the trapped gunmen. Hundreds responded, many of them Hamas supporters dressed in long robes and headscarves. The women marched toward the mosque, coming under Israeli fire at times, and approached armored personnel carriers and bulldozers stationed near the mosque.'
Now unless you want to start in on how inherently false the Israeli media is, the story of the mosque and the human shields is settled, and that background info you pulled out of your ass is just that- excrement.
The story of the mosque and the human shields is settled is it? Because the Jewish 'jerusalem post' says so?
And the 'background info' I quoted is 'excrement' is it? Is that because you say so?
i don't believe every single palenstinian is participating in actively attacking israel. in fact, i'd bet there are a fair number of them who wish the whole conflict would just stop
You said that to call 'terrorists' civilians is wrong. Therefore you are saying that all civilians - of a certain type - are terrorists.
If I'm wrong. Then explain why I'm wrong.
The story of the mosque and the human shields is settled is it? Because the Jewish 'jerusalem post' says so?
And the 'background info' I quoted is 'excrement' is it? Is that because you say so?
I'm not refering to anything you quoted. Your BS about Israel arbitrarily surrounding a mosque, planning to massacre everyone inside, and hundreds of heroic palestinian women spontaneously rescuing them was 100% conjecture that you pulled out of your ass. I'm sorry the source I cited was "Jewish" and thus lacks any credibility with you. I guess you missed the point where I said that the article was from the Associated Press.
an example of a real war crime is... chechnya 160,000 dead in just over a decade.
that's more than the total number of israelis and arabs combined killed in the past 6 decades.
and let's not forget about Sudan in Darfur, China systematically erasing Tibet, and the decades-long civil war in the Congo. I guess all that's missing to draw your outrage is the Jews.
Amnesty slams Israel 'war crimes'
Most Palestinian casualties are unjustifiable, Amnesty says
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances.
The report lists "reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian areas... and excessive use of force".
It also condemns the killing of Israeli civilians by Palestinian militants and violence by Jewish settlers.
"Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes," Amnesty's report says.
"The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity," it adds.
An Israeli opposition MP has requested an urgent parliamentary debate on the report.
But an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman denied the charge of war crimes and said Amnesty's analysis appeared "one-sided".
The report says Palestinian armed groups killed 109 Israelis, including 59 civilians and eight children, in suicide bombings, shootings and mortar attacks.
Amnesty's accusations against the Israeli army include unlawful killings, torture, extensive and wanton destruction of property, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel.
Amnesty also says Israel has continued to use Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations, "forcing them to carry out tasks that endangered their lives", despite an injunction by Israel's high court banning the practice.
The report accuses Israel of offering impunity to soldiers and settlers who commit crimes against Palestinians.
"In the overwhelming majority of the thousands of cases of unlawful killings and other grave human rights violations in the previous four years, no investigations were known to have been carried out," the report says.
"The Israeli army and police ... routinely increased restrictions on the local Palestinian population in response to attacks by Israeli settlers," it adds.
In addition to the report's focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Amnesty criticises a number of regimes in neighbouring Arab countries.
Egypt and Syria are blamed for systematic torture and ill-treatment of political prisoners.
In Saudi Arabia, Amnesty highlights killings by security forces and armed groups, exacerbating the "already dire human rights situation in the country".
Jordan is said to have made scores of political arrests, amid reports of torture and ill-treatment in custody.
In Iraq, the report says US-led forces committed gross human rights violations, including unlawful killings, arbitrary detention and torture.
Armed groups in Iraq are similarly blamed for targeting civilians, hostage-taking and killing hostages.
You said that to call 'terrorists' civilians is wrong. Therefore you are saying that all civilians - of a certain type - are terrorists.
If I'm wrong. Then explain why I'm wrong.
that logic doesn't make any sense. terrorists are terrorists, even if they are "regular people" or "civilians" and not officially members of a state military. people who aren't terrorists aren't terrorists. stop trying to spin an obvious statement into some racist anti-arab ideaology.
Your BS about Israel arbitrarily surrounding a mosque, planning to massacre everyone inside, and hundreds of heroic palestinian women spontaneously rescuing them was 100% conjecture that you pulled out of your ass. I'm sorry the source I cited was "Jewish" and thus lacks any credibility with you. I guess you missed the point where I said that the article was from the Associated Press.
I didn't say that Israel arbitrarily surrounded a mosque, and I din't say that palestinian women spontaneously rescued them. I simply said that the women weren't coereced into coming to the aid of those inside the mosque. Your claiming that the Palestinians ordered these women to come their aid under the threat of death, and that therefore they have no respect for the lives of their own people - or some such shit - is just a tactic to deflect attention away from the crimes of your people. An age old tactic.
that logic doesn't make any sense. terrorists are terrorists, even if they are "regular people" or "civilians" and not officially members of a state military. people who aren't terrorists aren't terrorists. stop trying to spin an obvious statement into some racist anti-arab ideaology.
Fine. In that case your original post was completely meaningless. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I didn't say that Israel arbitrarily surrounded a mosque, and I din't say that palestinian women spontaneously rescued them. I simply said that the women weren't coereced into coming to the aid of those inside the mosque. Your claiming that the Palestinians ordered these women to come their aid under the threat of death, and that therefore they have no respect for the lives of their own people - or some such shit - is just a tactic to deflect attention away from the crimes of your people. An age old tactic.
You can choose to believe the reports or not, of course, but all sources I've seen mention the "calls" from the men in the mosque. It was on Canadian national news sources last night (not FOX). You're appealing for evidence but then refusing to accept its validity. Come on, Byrnzie. You make a lot of valid points about the Palestinians' situation, but men using these women as shields is not such a stretch. One can still hold Israeli troops culpable for firing on civilians, but that doesn't absolve the gunmen of their role either.
Fine. In that case your original post was completely meaningless. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
meaningless only because you can't seem to understand what i'm saying.
my post was in response to noam chomsky's interview referring to the muammar brothers as "civilians" as opposed to the israeli "soldiers" who were not kidnapped, but "taken". just because the muammar brothers were not part of a state military, for example the british navy, does not mean that they are simply "civilians". as i said, technically, maybe, but once they start to act as militants they are no longer just plain civilians. calling someone a "civilian" implies that they are just regular joes going about their daily business of selling food or clothing or something inert like that....
an example of a real war crime is... chechnya 160,000 dead in just over a decade.
Continuing the subject of war crimes:
Wednesday, 23 August 2006
Israel accused of war crimes
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.
The human rights group says attacks on homes, bridges, roads and water and fuel plants were an "integral part" of Israel's strategy in the recent war.
The group also calls for a UN investigation into whether both Israel and Hezbollah broke humanitarian law.
Israel said it did not deliberately target Lebanon's civilian population.
In a report released on Wednesday, Amnesty International bases its accusations on an examination of Israeli attacks and comments made by Israeli officials during the 34-day conflict with the militant group Hezbollah.
"The pattern, scope and scale of the attacks makes Israel's claim that this was 'collateral damage', simply not credible," said Kate Gilmore, Executive Deputy Secretary General of Amnesty International.
The document details what it describes as "massive destruction by Israeli forces of whole civilian neighbourhoods and villages", together with attacks on bridges "in areas of no apparent strategic importance", on its list of supporting evidence.
It also says Israel targeted supermarkets, water pumping stations and water treatment plants, which may have broken a prohibition in humanitarian law against targeting objects crucial to civilian survival.
The report lists Israeli statements - such as comments made by Israeli Chief of Staff Lt Gen Dan Halutz that "nothing is safe [in Lebanon], as simple as that" - to support its claims.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel's actions during the war were "in accordance with recognised norms of behaviour during conflicts and with relevant international law".
Women grieve over coffins at mass funeral in Tyre, Lebanon
About 1,000 Lebanese, mainly civilians, died in the fighting
"Unlike Hezbollah, we did not deliberately target the Lebanese civilian population," he said.
Lebanese infrastructure was "targeted only when that infrastructure was being exploited by the Hezbollah machine, and this is in accordance with the rules of war", Mr Regev said.
Ms Gilmore said Israel's claims that attacks on infrastructure were lawful was "manifestly wrong".
"Many of the violations identified in our report are war crimes, including indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks," said Ms Gilmore.
The human rights organisation said it would look into Hezbollah's attacks on Israel separately.
Israel launched its offensive after Hezbollah militants seized two of its soldiers and killed several others during a cross-border raid on 12 July.
During the conflict Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into northern Israel, while the Israeli military launched a vast air offensive across Lebanon and a ground invasion into the south.
About 1,000 Lebanese - most civilians - died in the conflict, while 161 Israelis, mainly soldiers, were killed.
You can choose to believe the reports or not, of course, but all sources I've seen mention the "calls" from the men in the mosque. It was on Canadian national news sources last night (not FOX). You're appealing for evidence but then refusing to accept its validity. Come on, Byrnzie. You make a lot of valid points about the Palestinians' situation, but men using these women as shields is not such a stretch. One can still hold Israeli troops culpable for firing on civilians, but that doesn't absolve the gunmen of their role either.
This isn't a million miles away from the way people were defending the Israeli actions in Lebanon this year. Apparently the massive Lebanese civilian death count was the fault of Hizbollah using them as human sheilds. Somehow, It just doesn't wash with me.
Edit: My feeling on first reading about the incident was how courageous and loyal these women are. It didn't occur to me to denigrate either them or the gunmen inside the mosque.
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.
The human rights group says attacks on homes, bridges, roads and water and fuel plants were an "integral part" of Israel's strategy in the recent war.
The group also calls for a UN investigation into whether both Israel and Hezbollah broke humanitarian law.
Israel said it did not deliberately target Lebanon's civilian population.
In a report released on Wednesday, Amnesty International bases its accusations on an examination of Israeli attacks and comments made by Israeli officials during the 34-day conflict with the militant group Hezbollah.
"The pattern, scope and scale of the attacks makes Israel's claim that this was 'collateral damage', simply not credible," said Kate Gilmore, Executive Deputy Secretary General of Amnesty International.
The document details what it describes as "massive destruction by Israeli forces of whole civilian neighbourhoods and villages", together with attacks on bridges "in areas of no apparent strategic importance", on its list of supporting evidence.
It also says Israel targeted supermarkets, water pumping stations and water treatment plants, which may have broken a prohibition in humanitarian law against targeting objects crucial to civilian survival.
The report lists Israeli statements - such as comments made by Israeli Chief of Staff Lt Gen Dan Halutz that "nothing is safe [in Lebanon], as simple as that" - to support its claims.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel's actions during the war were "in accordance with recognised norms of behaviour during conflicts and with relevant international law".
Women grieve over coffins at mass funeral in Tyre, Lebanon
About 1,000 Lebanese, mainly civilians, died in the fighting
"Unlike Hezbollah, we did not deliberately target the Lebanese civilian population," he said.
Lebanese infrastructure was "targeted only when that infrastructure was being exploited by the Hezbollah machine, and this is in accordance with the rules of war", Mr Regev said.
Ms Gilmore said Israel's claims that attacks on infrastructure were lawful was "manifestly wrong".
"Many of the violations identified in our report are war crimes, including indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks," said Ms Gilmore.
The human rights organisation said it would look into Hezbollah's attacks on Israel separately.
Israel launched its offensive after Hezbollah militants seized two of its soldiers and killed several others during a cross-border raid on 12 July.
During the conflict Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into northern Israel, while the Israeli military launched a vast air offensive across Lebanon and a ground invasion into the south.
About 1,000 Lebanese - most civilians - died in the conflict, while 161 Israelis, mainly soldiers, were killed.
LOL!Amnesty internatnal.Like their a source of fact's.
I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
This isn't a million miles away from the way people were defending the Israeli actions in Lebanon this year. Apparently the massive Lebanese civilian death count was the fault of Hizbollah using them as human sheilds. Somehow, It just doesn't wash with me.
I actually agree, and I still believe that the aerial bombing campaign was a grave human rights violation and yes, a war crime. I said from the very beginning that Israel should have conducted that war much differently than it did. The reason that this kind of argument does wash with me is simple ... Without the actions of groups like Hezbollah, Israel's warmongering (if you want to call it that) has no real legitimacy. I don't view Israel as a "victim" per se, but I do think that Israel is within its rights to launch military campaigns on terrorist groups that kill its civilians. If said terrorist groups choose to fight in such a way that they put there own people in danger, well ... They deserve at least some of the responsibility for the deaths, if not the bulk. I agree, there's often NOT a clear boundary between terrorist and civilian in many of these cases, which is one of the things that make these wars so damn ugly. Should Israel stop fighting? Yes. But will they, before terrorist groups disarm? I kind of doubt it. This thing cannot be unilateral.
look, i really don't have a dog in this fight. the whole thing just seems to never end. misrepresentations on BOTH sides cause all sorts of outrage amongst all sorts of people. sadly, it just seems to have been happening for so long that it's part of the culture. like the mutual hatred is a way of life. it's as if nothing can stop it now.
personally, i'm for side-by-side states. eveyone needs a place to call home. i understand that mulitple sets of people lay claim to the same plots of land. at some point, either they're going to have to say "ok, you take that and we'll take this", or they're not going to stop until everyone is just dead.
Edit: My feeling on first reading about the incident was how courageous and loyal these women are. It didn't occur to me to denigrate either them or the gumen inside the mosque.
Denigrate the women themselves? No, absolutely not. But I have serious problems with some of the cultural values and socio-political forces that lead to this kind of incident, and that goes for Israel AND the Arab cultures. Women are treated like dogs in the Middle East; Israel is about the only place where there is at least a pretense of gender equality. I cannot help but consider the gender issues at work in this kind of incident. Call me old-fashioned or redneck or whatever, but in my view, real men stand up and fight if they have to, or choose to. You don't expect women to die first, unless they are also armed and fighting along with the men. If these women indeed did this of thier own accord, then I take it back. But that's not what it looks like to me.
personally, i'm for side-by-side states. eveyone needs a place to call home. i understand that mulitple sets of people lay claim to the same plots of land. at some point, either they're going to have to say "ok, you take that and we'll take this", or they're not going to stop until everyone is just dead.
I agree with both of you. Although just take a look at where all attempts at a two state solution have ended up. The U.S has unilaterally vetoed every single call for a two state solution. You're right dangerboy to say that this has been going on for so long that it just seems like a part of the culture. However, international awareness of the situation in the middle east has grown enormously over the past few years, despite the contninued efforts of the Western media to white-wash what's happening there.
Saturday, 4 November 2006, 16:18 GMT
Israel mounts air strikes in Gaza
Israeli forces have mounted a series of air strikes as part of an ongoing offensive in Gaza, killing at least seven people.
The strikes bring the number of those killed since Wednesday to at least 42. A top Hamas militant is among the dead.
At least 17 people were killed on Friday, including two women shot during the siege of a mosque in Beit Hanoun.
Israel says it is targeting militants but Palestinian officials accuse Israel of a "massacre".
Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.
An Israeli military spokesman said five air strikes had taken place after nightfall on Friday, targeting the towns of Beit Hanoun, Beit Lahiya, Jabaliya and Rafah.
Three Hamas militants were among the seven killed in the latest strikes, along with one civilian buried in the rubble of his home.
One of the Hamas militants killed was senior member, Louay al-Borno, who died when an air strike set ablaze a minivan in Gaza City. Two other Hamas members were wounded in the incident.
The Israeli army also said it had blown up three buildings near the mosque that witnessed Friday's siege in Beit Hanoun. Israel said weapons were being stored in the buildings.
Israeli officials say the offensive is aimed at destroying militant infrastructure and stopping Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas called the operation a "massacre" and urged the UN Security Council to convene to discuss the issue.
Friday's action around the Beit Hanoun mosque followed a tense stand-off between Israeli forces and up to 15 militants who had taken refuge inside.
Hamas radio then appealed to local women in the town to intervene.
One of the women, Nahed Abou Harbiya, told the BBC Arabic Service the gunmen inside the mosque were given women's clothes to help them escape.
"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.
"We entered the mosque and we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation forces wouldn't arrest them," she said.
In addition to the two women killed, at least 10 women and a Palestinian cameraman were injured in firing.
Hamas leader Ismail Haniya praised the women but Israel said they had served as "human shields" for the militants.
The Israeli military says it only fired on armed Palestinians.
Saturday, 4 November 2006, 16:18 GMT
Israel mounts air strikes in Gaza
Israeli forces have mounted a series of air strikes as part of an ongoing offensive in Gaza, killing at least seven people.
The strikes bring the number of those killed since Wednesday to at least 42. A top Hamas militant is among the dead.
At least 17 people were killed on Friday, including two women shot during the siege of a mosque in Beit Hanoun.
Israel says it is targeting militants but Palestinian officials accuse Israel of a "massacre".
Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.
An Israeli military spokesman said five air strikes had taken place after nightfall on Friday, targeting the towns of Beit Hanoun, Beit Lahiya, Jabaliya and Rafah.
Three Hamas militants were among the seven killed in the latest strikes, along with one civilian buried in the rubble of his home.
One of the Hamas militants killed was senior member, Louay al-Borno, who died when an air strike set ablaze a minivan in Gaza City. Two other Hamas members were wounded in the incident.
The Israeli army also said it had blown up three buildings near the mosque that witnessed Friday's siege in Beit Hanoun. Israel said weapons were being stored in the buildings.
Israeli officials say the offensive is aimed at destroying militant infrastructure and stopping Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas called the operation a "massacre" and urged the UN Security Council to convene to discuss the issue.
Friday's action around the Beit Hanoun mosque followed a tense stand-off between Israeli forces and up to 15 militants who had taken refuge inside.
Hamas radio then appealed to local women in the town to intervene.
One of the women, Nahed Abou Harbiya, told the BBC Arabic Service the gunmen inside the mosque were given women's clothes to help them escape.
"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.
"We entered the mosque and we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation forces wouldn't arrest them," she said.
In addition to the two women killed, at least 10 women and a Palestinian cameraman were injured in firing.
Hamas leader Ismail Haniya praised the women but Israel said they had served as "human shields" for the militants.
The Israeli military says it only fired on armed Palestinians.
I find it interesting that I've often heard pro-Israelis on the MT saying that they find the BBC biased against Israel. I find this incredible. This article is a typical example of the BBC's pro Israel bias. Just look at how many times an Israeli spokesman is quoted in this article as opposed to a Palestinian. I make it 5 -1.
LOL!Amnesty internatnal.Like their a source of fact's.
I recommend you:
->open your mind... you might learn something
->read what Byrnzie actually posted, cuz the timing of your post indicates you did not
->learn to spell/punctuate
Comments
Please provide some evidence that these men who were surrounded inside a mosque managed, in between dodging bullets, to garner the support of two hundred women.
Sure ... As soon as you provide some evidence that the Israelis were going to murder everyone in the mosque, and that this somehow led a bunch of women to take it upon themselves to stand up to tanks and machine guns. In fact, if indeed they assumed that everyone was going to be killed, why on Earth did they use the shield tactic in the first place? Obviously there was some intent to protect someone ... Why bother if everyone is going to die anyway?
That’s happening right now. And that’s the core of the problem.
Gaza was devastated under Israeli rule. It’s now described accurately by Israeli human rights activists as the biggest prison in the world; totally encircled, no way in or out. And Israel freely carries out regular atrocities there. And of course after Palestinians voted the wrong way in a free election last January the US and Israel instantly determined that they would punish the population—punish the population because you didn’t vote the way we told you to. That’s a good indication of what Bush’s democracy promotion project that everyone talks about. It exists totally in rhetoric. In fact, there isn’t a particle of truth to it. And this is a good illustration of ‘you vote the wrong way, we punish you… with embargo, with cutting of funding, with any way we can’.
And the atrocities continued. Just to give you some examples: In June, forty people were killed by Israeli forces, 36 in Gaza, four in the West Bank where the killings aren’t as high, it’s just mostly takeover. That was June. On June 24, an incident took place which is nonexistent for Western opinion but is existent for people who pay attention to the world.
On June 24, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza city, the Muammar brothers. They claimed they’re militants, whatever that means, but they can claim anything they like. They kidnapped them, abducted them, and took them to Israel. They’re now off somewhere hidden in the Israeli prison system. It was barely mentioned in the west. Editors knew about it. No doubt they knew about it. Like there were 87 words in the Washington Post. So it was certainly known. It was in the Israeli press, IDF handouts, no question about the fact. But the West just doesn’t care about kidnapping; it’s fine, as long as our side does it. So no reaction, no comment, nothing.
June 25th, the next day, Hamas captured an Israeli soldier. You can’t kidnap soldiers, you can capture them. But by definition you can’t kidnap them as was pointed out a couple of days ago by a US military historian in the LA Times. So they captured an Israeli soldier. That led to a huge reaction in the West, a major atrocity. Israel quickly launched attacks, serious attacks. In June in Gaza, thirty-six people were killed. In July it was probably about 170 according to UN sources. And that was all approved in the West, in the United States particularly, because we can’t stand outrageous kidnapping.
The kidnapping of civilians is a much worse crime than capturing a solider, especially a soldier in an army that’s attacking your country, which is what is happening. But that doesn’t register in the West, particularly the United States, but the West in general. On July 12th, Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, killed three, and five others were killed in Lebanon. That again led to huge outrage. A major US-Israeli invasion—of course it’s the US—destroyed half of Lebanon, killed over a thousand people, a large part of the country’s wiped out, all over the place.
That was fine. ‘Disproportionate’ is the most that anyone could say. Israel’s been kidnapping and abducting Lebanese for decades. We don’t know how many because no one looks. There was a secret prison discovered in Israel three years ago, worse than Guantanamo, totally secret. The secret prison was never even reported in the United States. It was in Israel and in Europe. And it was full of Lebanese.
Noam Chomsky interviewed by Michael Shank and Courtney Erwin
The Citizen Diplomat, August 15, 2006
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20060815.htm
When was this, 1946? I thought we talking about the present?
Please give an example of a 'real war crime', as opposed to an 'unreal war crime'.
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
this was taken from an AP article in jpost-
"A separate 19-hour standoff in northern Gaza between IDF troops and Palestinian gunmen who had barricaded themselves inside a mosque ended in the deaths of eight Palestinians.
On Friday morning, Al Aqsa Radio, the local Hamas station, broadcast appeals to women to come to the rescue of the trapped gunmen. Hundreds responded, many of them Hamas supporters dressed in long robes and headscarves. The women marched toward the mosque, coming under Israeli fire at times, and approached armored personnel carriers and bulldozers stationed near the mosque.
Two women, both age 40, were shot dead, and at least 10 others were wounded, hospital officials said.
The IDF said that it suspected that some Palestinian gunmen had dressed up as women in order to foil the army's attempts to enter the mosque.
The army said the gunmen inside the mosque were able to take advantage of the demonstration to escape because there weren't enough infantrymen to block the protesters from approaching the building, and troops didn't want to shoot into the crowd.
The army said troops spotted two militants hiding in the crowd of women and opened fire, hitting the two.
As the women rushed away from the scene, at least two men disguised in women's clothes were seen in the crowd. Jubilant bystanders embraced them, celebrating their escape."
Now unless you want to start in on how inherently false the Israeli media is, the story of the mosque and the human shields is settled, and that background info you pulled out of your ass is just that- excrement.
Most antizionists are antisemites
That's interesting. I take it that what you're trying to say is that all Palestinians are terrorists? Correct me if I'm wrong.
you're wrong. i said what i was trying to say.
i don't believe every single palenstinian is actively participating in attacking israel. in fact, i'd bet there are a fair number of them who wish the whole conflict would just stop
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
ok now you're just embarrassing yourself. i'm talking about the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, signed in '77 and fully implemented in '82.
an example of a real war crime is...
chechnya 160,000 dead in just over a decade.
that's more than the total number of israelis and arabs combined killed in the past 6 decades.
and let's not forget about Sudan in Darfur, China systematically erasing Tibet, and the decades-long civil war in the Congo. I guess all that's missing to draw your outrage is the Jews.
Most antizionists are antisemites
The story of the mosque and the human shields is settled is it? Because the Jewish 'jerusalem post' says so?
And the 'background info' I quoted is 'excrement' is it? Is that because you say so?
You said that to call 'terrorists' civilians is wrong. Therefore you are saying that all civilians - of a certain type - are terrorists.
If I'm wrong. Then explain why I'm wrong.
I'm not refering to anything you quoted. Your BS about Israel arbitrarily surrounding a mosque, planning to massacre everyone inside, and hundreds of heroic palestinian women spontaneously rescuing them was 100% conjecture that you pulled out of your ass. I'm sorry the source I cited was "Jewish" and thus lacks any credibility with you. I guess you missed the point where I said that the article was from the Associated Press.
Most antizionists are antisemites
Amnesty slams Israel 'war crimes'
Most Palestinian casualties are unjustifiable, Amnesty says
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The rights group's report for 2004 says Israeli forces have killed some 700 Palestinians - including 150 children - mostly in unlawful circumstances.
The report lists "reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian areas... and excessive use of force".
It also condemns the killing of Israeli civilians by Palestinian militants and violence by Jewish settlers.
"Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes," Amnesty's report says.
"The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity," it adds.
An Israeli opposition MP has requested an urgent parliamentary debate on the report.
But an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman denied the charge of war crimes and said Amnesty's analysis appeared "one-sided".
The report says Palestinian armed groups killed 109 Israelis, including 59 civilians and eight children, in suicide bombings, shootings and mortar attacks.
Amnesty's accusations against the Israeli army include unlawful killings, torture, extensive and wanton destruction of property, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel.
Amnesty also says Israel has continued to use Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations, "forcing them to carry out tasks that endangered their lives", despite an injunction by Israel's high court banning the practice.
The report accuses Israel of offering impunity to soldiers and settlers who commit crimes against Palestinians.
"In the overwhelming majority of the thousands of cases of unlawful killings and other grave human rights violations in the previous four years, no investigations were known to have been carried out," the report says.
"The Israeli army and police ... routinely increased restrictions on the local Palestinian population in response to attacks by Israeli settlers," it adds.
In addition to the report's focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Amnesty criticises a number of regimes in neighbouring Arab countries.
Egypt and Syria are blamed for systematic torture and ill-treatment of political prisoners.
In Saudi Arabia, Amnesty highlights killings by security forces and armed groups, exacerbating the "already dire human rights situation in the country".
Jordan is said to have made scores of political arrests, amid reports of torture and ill-treatment in custody.
In Iraq, the report says US-led forces committed gross human rights violations, including unlawful killings, arbitrary detention and torture.
Armed groups in Iraq are similarly blamed for targeting civilians, hostage-taking and killing hostages.
that logic doesn't make any sense. terrorists are terrorists, even if they are "regular people" or "civilians" and not officially members of a state military. people who aren't terrorists aren't terrorists. stop trying to spin an obvious statement into some racist anti-arab ideaology.
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
I didn't say that Israel arbitrarily surrounded a mosque, and I din't say that palestinian women spontaneously rescued them. I simply said that the women weren't coereced into coming to the aid of those inside the mosque. Your claiming that the Palestinians ordered these women to come their aid under the threat of death, and that therefore they have no respect for the lives of their own people - or some such shit - is just a tactic to deflect attention away from the crimes of your people. An age old tactic.
Fine. In that case your original post was completely meaningless. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
You can choose to believe the reports or not, of course, but all sources I've seen mention the "calls" from the men in the mosque. It was on Canadian national news sources last night (not FOX). You're appealing for evidence but then refusing to accept its validity. Come on, Byrnzie. You make a lot of valid points about the Palestinians' situation, but men using these women as shields is not such a stretch. One can still hold Israeli troops culpable for firing on civilians, but that doesn't absolve the gunmen of their role either.
meaningless only because you can't seem to understand what i'm saying.
my post was in response to noam chomsky's interview referring to the muammar brothers as "civilians" as opposed to the israeli "soldiers" who were not kidnapped, but "taken". just because the muammar brothers were not part of a state military, for example the british navy, does not mean that they are simply "civilians". as i said, technically, maybe, but once they start to act as militants they are no longer just plain civilians. calling someone a "civilian" implies that they are just regular joes going about their daily business of selling food or clothing or something inert like that....
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
Continuing the subject of war crimes:
Wednesday, 23 August 2006
Israel accused of war crimes
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.
The human rights group says attacks on homes, bridges, roads and water and fuel plants were an "integral part" of Israel's strategy in the recent war.
The group also calls for a UN investigation into whether both Israel and Hezbollah broke humanitarian law.
Israel said it did not deliberately target Lebanon's civilian population.
In a report released on Wednesday, Amnesty International bases its accusations on an examination of Israeli attacks and comments made by Israeli officials during the 34-day conflict with the militant group Hezbollah.
"The pattern, scope and scale of the attacks makes Israel's claim that this was 'collateral damage', simply not credible," said Kate Gilmore, Executive Deputy Secretary General of Amnesty International.
The document details what it describes as "massive destruction by Israeli forces of whole civilian neighbourhoods and villages", together with attacks on bridges "in areas of no apparent strategic importance", on its list of supporting evidence.
It also says Israel targeted supermarkets, water pumping stations and water treatment plants, which may have broken a prohibition in humanitarian law against targeting objects crucial to civilian survival.
The report lists Israeli statements - such as comments made by Israeli Chief of Staff Lt Gen Dan Halutz that "nothing is safe [in Lebanon], as simple as that" - to support its claims.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel's actions during the war were "in accordance with recognised norms of behaviour during conflicts and with relevant international law".
Women grieve over coffins at mass funeral in Tyre, Lebanon
About 1,000 Lebanese, mainly civilians, died in the fighting
"Unlike Hezbollah, we did not deliberately target the Lebanese civilian population," he said.
Lebanese infrastructure was "targeted only when that infrastructure was being exploited by the Hezbollah machine, and this is in accordance with the rules of war", Mr Regev said.
Ms Gilmore said Israel's claims that attacks on infrastructure were lawful was "manifestly wrong".
"Many of the violations identified in our report are war crimes, including indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks," said Ms Gilmore.
The human rights organisation said it would look into Hezbollah's attacks on Israel separately.
Israel launched its offensive after Hezbollah militants seized two of its soldiers and killed several others during a cross-border raid on 12 July.
During the conflict Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets into northern Israel, while the Israeli military launched a vast air offensive across Lebanon and a ground invasion into the south.
About 1,000 Lebanese - most civilians - died in the conflict, while 161 Israelis, mainly soldiers, were killed.
This isn't a million miles away from the way people were defending the Israeli actions in Lebanon this year. Apparently the massive Lebanese civilian death count was the fault of Hizbollah using them as human sheilds. Somehow, It just doesn't wash with me.
Edit: My feeling on first reading about the incident was how courageous and loyal these women are. It didn't occur to me to denigrate either them or the gunmen inside the mosque.
O.k. I have no problem with that.
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
I actually agree, and I still believe that the aerial bombing campaign was a grave human rights violation and yes, a war crime. I said from the very beginning that Israel should have conducted that war much differently than it did. The reason that this kind of argument does wash with me is simple ... Without the actions of groups like Hezbollah, Israel's warmongering (if you want to call it that) has no real legitimacy. I don't view Israel as a "victim" per se, but I do think that Israel is within its rights to launch military campaigns on terrorist groups that kill its civilians. If said terrorist groups choose to fight in such a way that they put there own people in danger, well ... They deserve at least some of the responsibility for the deaths, if not the bulk. I agree, there's often NOT a clear boundary between terrorist and civilian in many of these cases, which is one of the things that make these wars so damn ugly. Should Israel stop fighting? Yes. But will they, before terrorist groups disarm? I kind of doubt it. This thing cannot be unilateral.
look, i really don't have a dog in this fight. the whole thing just seems to never end. misrepresentations on BOTH sides cause all sorts of outrage amongst all sorts of people. sadly, it just seems to have been happening for so long that it's part of the culture. like the mutual hatred is a way of life. it's as if nothing can stop it now.
personally, i'm for side-by-side states. eveyone needs a place to call home. i understand that mulitple sets of people lay claim to the same plots of land. at some point, either they're going to have to say "ok, you take that and we'll take this", or they're not going to stop until everyone is just dead.
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
You're a credit to all Republicans Dino! Keep up the good work!
Denigrate the women themselves? No, absolutely not. But I have serious problems with some of the cultural values and socio-political forces that lead to this kind of incident, and that goes for Israel AND the Arab cultures. Women are treated like dogs in the Middle East; Israel is about the only place where there is at least a pretense of gender equality. I cannot help but consider the gender issues at work in this kind of incident. Call me old-fashioned or redneck or whatever, but in my view, real men stand up and fight if they have to, or choose to. You don't expect women to die first, unless they are also armed and fighting along with the men. If these women indeed did this of thier own accord, then I take it back. But that's not what it looks like to me.
I agree with both of you. Although just take a look at where all attempts at a two state solution have ended up. The U.S has unilaterally vetoed every single call for a two state solution. You're right dangerboy to say that this has been going on for so long that it just seems like a part of the culture. However, international awareness of the situation in the middle east has grown enormously over the past few years, despite the contninued efforts of the Western media to white-wash what's happening there.
Saturday, 4 November 2006, 16:18 GMT
Israel mounts air strikes in Gaza
Israeli forces have mounted a series of air strikes as part of an ongoing offensive in Gaza, killing at least seven people.
The strikes bring the number of those killed since Wednesday to at least 42. A top Hamas militant is among the dead.
At least 17 people were killed on Friday, including two women shot during the siege of a mosque in Beit Hanoun.
Israel says it is targeting militants but Palestinian officials accuse Israel of a "massacre".
Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.
An Israeli military spokesman said five air strikes had taken place after nightfall on Friday, targeting the towns of Beit Hanoun, Beit Lahiya, Jabaliya and Rafah.
Three Hamas militants were among the seven killed in the latest strikes, along with one civilian buried in the rubble of his home.
One of the Hamas militants killed was senior member, Louay al-Borno, who died when an air strike set ablaze a minivan in Gaza City. Two other Hamas members were wounded in the incident.
The Israeli army also said it had blown up three buildings near the mosque that witnessed Friday's siege in Beit Hanoun. Israel said weapons were being stored in the buildings.
Israeli officials say the offensive is aimed at destroying militant infrastructure and stopping Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas called the operation a "massacre" and urged the UN Security Council to convene to discuss the issue.
Friday's action around the Beit Hanoun mosque followed a tense stand-off between Israeli forces and up to 15 militants who had taken refuge inside.
Hamas radio then appealed to local women in the town to intervene.
One of the women, Nahed Abou Harbiya, told the BBC Arabic Service the gunmen inside the mosque were given women's clothes to help them escape.
"All the women headed to the mosque to get the Palestinian resistance men... But the Israeli occupation forces were firing heavily at us with their machine guns and also threw stun grenades at us.
"We entered the mosque and we got all the resistance men out and put female attire on them so that the Israeli occupation forces wouldn't arrest them," she said.
In addition to the two women killed, at least 10 women and a Palestinian cameraman were injured in firing.
Hamas leader Ismail Haniya praised the women but Israel said they had served as "human shields" for the militants.
The Israeli military says it only fired on armed Palestinians.
I find it interesting that I've often heard pro-Israelis on the MT saying that they find the BBC biased against Israel. I find this incredible. This article is a typical example of the BBC's pro Israel bias. Just look at how many times an Israeli spokesman is quoted in this article as opposed to a Palestinian. I make it 5 -1.
->open your mind... you might learn something
->read what Byrnzie actually posted, cuz the timing of your post indicates you did not
->learn to spell/punctuate