your tax dollars aren't going towards it...so why does it bother you? is it a question of ethics or morals? and, why would you try to transplant your ethical and/or moral stance onto another?
Maybe you should break out of your radio and join everyone else in the real world.
Hey if the German people are happy to pay for this operation at 40,000 a crack go for it. I just don't think it is the government's responsibility to fund this.
How am I transplanting my ethical and moral stance onto others. This is my personal opinion, everyone has a right to think however they want on this issue. Seriously whatever your listening to inside your radio, you should change the station.
so, you know more than psychiatrists evaluating the individual?
Where are you I am willing to drive there and take my axe and help get you out of your radio.
I have never said I know more then a psychiatrist. I'm sure this boy/girl does have some issues, and I'm all for having them dealt with. I just don't think TAXPAYERS should foot the bill.
gender IDENTITY has nothing at all to do with having sex
no, and gender and sex are not the same either. one is a social construct and the other is biological. the bottom line is at 12 years old, in the midst of a very confused and emotionally unstable time for every person, with hormones raging, is NOT the time to be making life-altering decisions.
no, and gender and sex are not the same either. one is a social construct and the other is biological. the bottom line is at 12 years old, in the midst of a very confused and emotionally unstable time for every person, with hormones raging, is NOT the time to be making life-altering decisions.
maybe (because I'm not a peditrician or a psychiatrist) that's the best time to be giving her the hormones before any of those male hormones take ahold and really make her go nutty. maybe if she's getting female hormones all through puberty that makes the process smoother. it's not like she's having her wang wacked....errr....cut off
i dont find it repulsive, i find it fucking stupid that they let kids make a decision like that. if cigarettes and alcohol have a "health effect" that merits government regulation, how does major surgery that alters the very sex of a child not have a "health effect"?
a child didn't make the decision...intelligent individuals made the decision that the child was correct in assessing the situation.
maybe (because I'm not a peditrician or a psychiatrist) that's the best time to be giving her the hormones before any of those male hormones take ahold and really make her go nutty. maybe if she's getting female hormones all through puberty that makes the process smoother. it's not like she's having her wang wacked....errr....cut off
Actually, from what I know, puberty is the wrong age to go messing around with hormones.
If I'm correct (well, in fact I am) hormones have a lot (if not all) to do with sex drive for example (I won't bother looking it up but a patch to enhance lust - based on hormones - is on sale in some countries). Other biological studies show the brain keeps on changing throughout puberty under hormone stimulation. And by "the brain" I mean your psyche as well. I can't even believe an actual md had the right to do such a thing, and I can't understand how there are no laws on this subject.
ps : to the threadstarter, do you have the source?
Where are you I am willing to drive there and take my axe and help get you out of your radio.
I have never said I know more then a psychiatrist. I'm sure this boy/girl does have some issues, and I'm all for having them dealt with. I just don't think TAXPAYERS should foot the bill.
Give me a break. Call it whatever you want, but the German taxpayers still paid 40,000 for hormone injections to help change this boys gender.
you said that...you called this individual a boy after, in the initial post, a psychiatrist was quoted as stating that this was an extreme case where a girl was stuck in a boy's body...thus placing your judgment above that of a trained professional.
you are transplanting your mora/ethic stance on someone else by condemning the government for paying to "fix" a person.
oh, and, i'm in west virginia...come on over...we can smash beer cans on our heads after you rescue me from my radio.
i dont find it repulsive, i find it fucking stupid that they let kids make a decision like that. if cigarettes and alcohol have a "health effect" that merits government regulation, how does major surgery that alters the very sex of a child not have a "health effect"?
you are smarter than this...you know what regulation related to health of the populus means. not altering the sex of the child would be adverse...not changing the sex of the child.
i cant believ i agree with miller. how is this different? 12 year olds can consent to a sex change but not sex?
why is it different? by the time you are 12 you understand boys and girls...by that age you do not, except in the very rare occasion, understand sex.
and, NO KIDDING, about sex and gender identity being different things, which causes emotional problems when your gender identity does not match up with your sex.
Actually, from what I know, puberty is the wrong age to go messing around with hormones.
If I'm correct (well, in fact I am) hormones have a lot (if not all) to do with sex drive for example (I won't bother looking it up but a patch to enhance lust - based on hormones - is on sale in some countries). Other biological studies show the brain keeps on changing throughout puberty under hormone stimulation. And by "the brain" I mean your psyche as well. I can't even believe an actual md had the right to do such a thing, and I can't understand how there are no laws on this subject.
ps : to the threadstarter, do you have the source?
in terms of sex assignment, it's the best time to do it because you have the opportunity to chemically stop certain sex-specific things from occurring, and, thus, via the same process, affecting the changes that you wish to occur.
in terms of sex assignment, it's the best time to do it because you have the opportunity to chemically stop certain sex-specific things from occurring, and, thus, via the same process, affecting the changes that you wish to occur.
I understand why on a practical point of view it is the best time to do it. I just think that on an ethical point of view it's pure nonsense.
"Speaking to The Sunday Telegraph, he said that even though under-16s were not permitted to undergo a sex change in other countries, he and his colleagues felt that in this case it had been best to start earlier. He said: "To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex change patient in the world. [....] Should Kim change her mind before the surgery, the procedure could be reversed. Doctors admit that the treatment involves a risk, however, and that its effects on children as young as Kim are not fully understood."
Her treatment, which has cost more than $40,000, is being funded by German taxpayers.
Somewhere Nancy Pelosi has a frozen smile on her face.
Sometimes I wonder what heaven is like... And then I read articles like this. Why can't we be more like Europe? Or California's 8th Congressional District? It would be nice for my government to atleast give me the neccesities of life... Food... Water... A Vagina...
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Sometimes I wonder what heaven is like... And then I read articles like this. Why can't we be more like Europe? Or California's 8th Congressional District? It would be nice for my government to atleast give me the neccesities of life... Food... Water... A Vagina...
Wow. Someone is objectifying women.....again.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
If they would have payed for a penis I would have said A Penis. Of course it's hard for me to get too excited about a penis because I already have one of my own.
"Sarcasm: intellect on the offensive"
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
If they would have payed for a penis I would have said A Penis. Of course it's hard for me to get too excited about a penis because I already have one of my own.
But of course.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
you said that...you called this individual a boy after, in the initial post, a psychiatrist was quoted as stating that this was an extreme case where a girl was stuck in a boy's body...thus placing your judgment above that of a trained professional.
you are transplanting your mora/ethic stance on someone else by condemning the government for paying to "fix" a person.
oh, and, i'm in west virginia...come on over...we can smash beer cans on our heads after you rescue me from my radio.
Great. I'll use the beer cans to smash up the giant radio you are stuck in and rescue you. I live in Seattle so hang on little buddy it will take me a little while to drive to West Virginia.
Was the boy/girl born with a working penis and all other traits inherit to a male? Yes therefore I called him a male. It seems to me that the doctor after evaluating him should have diagnosed him a male with gender issues or a sheman (for lack of a better term), but not a woman.
Why is it the gov't's responsibility to pay for this procedure? Its not life threatening. I think you're the one, as well as the German gov't, who is transplanting your moral/ethic stance on people when you decide it appropriate to spend others money on this procedure.
...
I don't know.. but, it seems to be.
Adam used to have this bit on KROQ's Loveline... a game show called 'Florida or Germany'. He'd read a wierd story about a guy getting his dick stuck in a Pepsi bottle and trying to free himself with a Bic Lighter and a pair of bolt cutters... and the callers would have to guess... Florida? Or... Germany?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
this is apalling. no 12 year old kid should ever have a fucking sex change. get that kid some extensive therapy. now every kid that reads this with some type of issue is going to manipulate this into some other 'change' issue.
you're a real hooker. im gonna slap you in public.
~Ron Burgundy
What exactly is a girl trapped in a boys body? Isnt the body actually what defines your gender in the first place?
...
Like me... the Lesbian trapped in a man's body?
...
And... Note to self... "If, in 6 years from now and beyond... I am approached by a German girl named Kim that has gnarly hands and an adam's apple for a blow job and/or a piece of ass... kindly decline."
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
I don't know.. but, it seems to be.
Adam used to have this bit on KROQ's Loveline... a game show called 'Florida or Germany'. He'd read a weird story about a guy getting his dick stuck in a Pepsi bottle and trying to free himself with a Bic Lighter and a pair of bolt cutters... and the callers would have to guess... Florida? Or... Germany?
why is it different? by the time you are 12 you understand boys and girls...by that age you do not, except in the very rare occasion, understand sex.
and, NO KIDDING, about sex and gender identity being different things, which causes emotional problems when your gender identity does not match up with your sex.
12 year olds understand the societal roles boys and girls are supposed to play. maybe instead of expensive surgery that could have serious repercussions for this kid (injecting a pubescent boy with high levels of hormones sounds like a recipe for disaster, no matter what gender he thinks he is), we should focus on combatting the ridiculous norms of gender-based behavior that prevent this young boy from being able to comfortably express who he is.
what is the doctor's evaluation here? the kid likes to cook? doesn't care for football? how do you deem a 12 year old is a woman trapped in a man's body? what criteria would you use? he acknowledges they have no idea what the long-term effects of this will be on the kid's health, just that they THINK it MIGHT be better to do it now. the story reads to me like this doctor is using a fucked up kid as his guinea pig for some unethical hormone therapy, and managed to convince the child and his parents it was a good idea.
ive got no issue with transgender persons if that's what they want. but you wait until you're an adult and make a conscious and unguided decision to do it. you don't decide you're kid's a nancy boy and have the doc lop his dick off becos you think he's too confused to go on as a boy.
you insist on saying "he" and that is where we fundamentally disagree...and then you say a "woman trapped in a man's body." you seem to be missing the fundamental issue here. a person can be comfortable NOW in society, instead of waiting until they are 18. you treat this as a hasty decision. i don't know the situation over there, but i can assure to a 99% certainty that this decision was made after a lengthy evaluation process.
are your only issues with this, (1) the age of the individual, and (2) the taxpayer's of germany picking up the tab?
12 year olds understand the societal roles boys and girls are supposed to play. maybe instead of expensive surgery that could have serious repercussions for this kid (injecting a pubescent boy with high levels of hormones sounds like a recipe for disaster, no matter what gender he thinks he is), we should focus on combatting the ridiculous norms of gender-based behavior that prevent this young boy from being able to comfortably express who he is.
what is the doctor's evaluation here? the kid likes to cook? doesn't care for football? how do you deem a 12 year old is a woman trapped in a man's body? what criteria would you use? he acknowledges they have no idea what the long-term effects of this will be on the kid's health, just that they THINK it MIGHT be better to do it now. the story reads to me like this doctor is using a fucked up kid as his guinea pig for some unethical hormone therapy, and managed to convince the child and his parents it was a good idea.
ive got no issue with transgender persons if that's what they want. but you wait until you're an adult and make a conscious and unguided decision to do it. you don't decide you're kid's a nancy boy and have the doc lop his dick off becos you think he's too confused to go on as a boy.
you insist on saying "he" and that is where we fundamentally disagree...and then you say a "woman trapped in a man's body." you seem to be missing the fundamental issue here. a person can be comfortable NOW in society, instead of waiting until they are 18. you treat this as a hasty decision. i don't know the situation over there, but i can assure to a 99% certainty that this decision was made after a lengthy evaluation process.
are your only issues with this, (1) the age of the individual, and (2) the taxpayer's of germany picking up the tab?
my only issue is (1). i dont care what the taxpayers of germany decide to do with their money. but there is a reason we dont allow kids to make potentially life altering decisions... becos they are not mature enough to fully understand the consequences. you dont use kids as test subjects for experimental and controversial medical procedures. i fail to see any meaningful distinction between saying that a kid is fully able to consent to life-altering sex change operations, but not able to consent to sex, buying alcohol, voting, military service, or tobacco use.
you said that...you called this individual a boy after, in the initial post, a psychiatrist was quoted as stating that this was an extreme case where a girl was stuck in a boy's body...thus placing your judgment above that of a trained professional.
you are transplanting your mora/ethic stance on someone else by condemning the government for paying to "fix" a person.
oh, and, i'm in west virginia...come on over...we can smash beer cans on our heads after you rescue me from my radio.
Weird, is that a coincidence. Do you know what illinoisemakers does for a living?
Comments
i cant believ i agree with miller. how is this different? 12 year olds can consent to a sex change but not sex?
Maybe you should break out of your radio and join everyone else in the real world.
Hey if the German people are happy to pay for this operation at 40,000 a crack go for it. I just don't think it is the government's responsibility to fund this.
How am I transplanting my ethical and moral stance onto others. This is my personal opinion, everyone has a right to think however they want on this issue. Seriously whatever your listening to inside your radio, you should change the station.
Where are you I am willing to drive there and take my axe and help get you out of your radio.
I have never said I know more then a psychiatrist. I'm sure this boy/girl does have some issues, and I'm all for having them dealt with. I just don't think TAXPAYERS should foot the bill.
gender IDENTITY has nothing at all to do with having sex
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
no, and gender and sex are not the same either. one is a social construct and the other is biological. the bottom line is at 12 years old, in the midst of a very confused and emotionally unstable time for every person, with hormones raging, is NOT the time to be making life-altering decisions.
maybe (because I'm not a peditrician or a psychiatrist) that's the best time to be giving her the hormones before any of those male hormones take ahold and really make her go nutty. maybe if she's getting female hormones all through puberty that makes the process smoother. it's not like she's having her wang wacked....errr....cut off
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
a child didn't make the decision...intelligent individuals made the decision that the child was correct in assessing the situation.
from my window to yours
Actually, from what I know, puberty is the wrong age to go messing around with hormones.
If I'm correct (well, in fact I am) hormones have a lot (if not all) to do with sex drive for example (I won't bother looking it up but a patch to enhance lust - based on hormones - is on sale in some countries). Other biological studies show the brain keeps on changing throughout puberty under hormone stimulation. And by "the brain" I mean your psyche as well. I can't even believe an actual md had the right to do such a thing, and I can't understand how there are no laws on this subject.
ps : to the threadstarter, do you have the source?
you said that...you called this individual a boy after, in the initial post, a psychiatrist was quoted as stating that this was an extreme case where a girl was stuck in a boy's body...thus placing your judgment above that of a trained professional.
you are transplanting your mora/ethic stance on someone else by condemning the government for paying to "fix" a person.
oh, and, i'm in west virginia...come on over...we can smash beer cans on our heads after you rescue me from my radio.
from my window to yours
you are smarter than this...you know what regulation related to health of the populus means. not altering the sex of the child would be adverse...not changing the sex of the child.
from my window to yours
why is it different? by the time you are 12 you understand boys and girls...by that age you do not, except in the very rare occasion, understand sex.
and, NO KIDDING, about sex and gender identity being different things, which causes emotional problems when your gender identity does not match up with your sex.
from my window to yours
in terms of sex assignment, it's the best time to do it because you have the opportunity to chemically stop certain sex-specific things from occurring, and, thus, via the same process, affecting the changes that you wish to occur.
from my window to yours
I understand why on a practical point of view it is the best time to do it. I just think that on an ethical point of view it's pure nonsense.
nevermind.
"Speaking to The Sunday Telegraph, he said that even though under-16s were not permitted to undergo a sex change in other countries, he and his colleagues felt that in this case it had been best to start earlier. He said: "To the best of my knowledge, Kim is the youngest sex change patient in the world. [....] Should Kim change her mind before the surgery, the procedure could be reversed. Doctors admit that the treatment involves a risk, however, and that its effects on children as young as Kim are not fully understood."
I still find this highly unethical.
Somewhere Nancy Pelosi has a frozen smile on her face.
Sometimes I wonder what heaven is like... And then I read articles like this. Why can't we be more like Europe? Or California's 8th Congressional District? It would be nice for my government to atleast give me the neccesities of life... Food... Water... A Vagina...
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
If they would have payed for a penis I would have said A Penis. Of course it's hard for me to get too excited about a penis because I already have one of my own.
"What I lack in decorum, I make up for with an absence of tact."
Camden 5-28-06
Washington, D.C. 6-22-08
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
- Adam Carolla
Hail, Hail!!!
Great. I'll use the beer cans to smash up the giant radio you are stuck in and rescue you. I live in Seattle so hang on little buddy it will take me a little while to drive to West Virginia.
Was the boy/girl born with a working penis and all other traits inherit to a male? Yes therefore I called him a male. It seems to me that the doctor after evaluating him should have diagnosed him a male with gender issues or a sheman (for lack of a better term), but not a woman.
Why is it the gov't's responsibility to pay for this procedure? Its not life threatening. I think you're the one, as well as the German gov't, who is transplanting your moral/ethic stance on people when you decide it appropriate to spend others money on this procedure.
Why is that true?:)
I don't know.. but, it seems to be.
Adam used to have this bit on KROQ's Loveline... a game show called 'Florida or Germany'. He'd read a wierd story about a guy getting his dick stuck in a Pepsi bottle and trying to free himself with a Bic Lighter and a pair of bolt cutters... and the callers would have to guess... Florida? Or... Germany?
Hail, Hail!!!
~Ron Burgundy
Like me... the Lesbian trapped in a man's body?
...
And... Note to self... "If, in 6 years from now and beyond... I am approached by a German girl named Kim that has gnarly hands and an adam's apple for a blow job and/or a piece of ass... kindly decline."
Hail, Hail!!!
Was it a German on vacation in Florida?;);)
12 year olds understand the societal roles boys and girls are supposed to play. maybe instead of expensive surgery that could have serious repercussions for this kid (injecting a pubescent boy with high levels of hormones sounds like a recipe for disaster, no matter what gender he thinks he is), we should focus on combatting the ridiculous norms of gender-based behavior that prevent this young boy from being able to comfortably express who he is.
what is the doctor's evaluation here? the kid likes to cook? doesn't care for football? how do you deem a 12 year old is a woman trapped in a man's body? what criteria would you use? he acknowledges they have no idea what the long-term effects of this will be on the kid's health, just that they THINK it MIGHT be better to do it now. the story reads to me like this doctor is using a fucked up kid as his guinea pig for some unethical hormone therapy, and managed to convince the child and his parents it was a good idea.
ive got no issue with transgender persons if that's what they want. but you wait until you're an adult and make a conscious and unguided decision to do it. you don't decide you're kid's a nancy boy and have the doc lop his dick off becos you think he's too confused to go on as a boy.
are your only issues with this, (1) the age of the individual, and (2) the taxpayer's of germany picking up the tab?
from my window to yours
my only issue is (1). i dont care what the taxpayers of germany decide to do with their money. but there is a reason we dont allow kids to make potentially life altering decisions... becos they are not mature enough to fully understand the consequences. you dont use kids as test subjects for experimental and controversial medical procedures. i fail to see any meaningful distinction between saying that a kid is fully able to consent to life-altering sex change operations, but not able to consent to sex, buying alcohol, voting, military service, or tobacco use.
but i dont beleive its true because you didnt leave a link
http://groups.msn.com/PearlJamNirvana/messages.msnw
Weird, is that a coincidence. Do you know what illinoisemakers does for a living?