Many European countries now have as much as 5% of their population being Muslim. That's pretty substantial. Due to France's liberal immigration laws, they are close to 10% which really has helped them in regards to the auto burning industry that is flourishing there. You think WE have problems with muslims? I dont think we in the States know the half of it...
There are many conservative Christians who would like to see us do to the Middle East exactly what I posted from Deuteronomy 20 above. Of course, now both sides use explosive devices, so it's harder to keep the women and children to yourself.
You have a point with that one specific passage, and I am sure a few others. But overall, no one is advocating to live under deuteronomy law. Basically my point, is that you cant compare this to sharia law in the least. There are actually countries that live under sharia law, and there is at least a somewhat significant portion of muslims who want to see it put in place in non muslim countries. There is no significant movement to advance deuteronomy law.
You have a point with that one specific passage, and I am sure a few others. But overall, no one is advocating to live under deuteronomy law. Basically my point, is that you cant compare this to sharia law in the least. There are actually countries that live under sharia law, and there is at least a somewhat significant portion of muslims who want to see it put in place in non muslim countries. There is no significant movement to advance deuteronomy law.
Liberalized interpretation of scripture is relatively recent - and there is a huge backlash against it in this country right now. Maybe not significant enough; but that doesn't mean there isn't a movement.
And, to be fair, Christianity is older than Islam. Go back a couple hundred years, and you'll find Christians as scary as these Sharia Muslims. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I believe that Muslims will eventually work this shit out.
I realize that "implication" has a lot to do with how these passages should be read. My issue is that there's no real difference between a literalistic approach to either Sharia law or the Deuteronomic Code.
thanks for the clarification. You have a point with that.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Regardless, this is not a good thing, nor are Christian fundamentalists in this or any other nation. Anyone who suggests ruling the lives of others based on the fantasies in their heads should be considered dangerous.
Liberalized interpretation of scripture is relatively recent - and there is a huge backlash against it in this country right now. Maybe not significant enough; but that doesn't mean there isn't a movement.
And, to be fair, Christianity is older than Islam. Go back a couple hundred years, and you'll find Christians as scary as these Sharia Muslims. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I believe that Muslims will eventually work this shit out.
Muslims may work it out, I hope so. And yes, from a historical standpoint you can certainly point out ridiculous behavior based on Christianity. But in a modern context, I dont think there is a comparison in the least. Our religious leaders stupidity ranges from throwing a fit over Janet Jackson at the superbowl, or pointing out the gay teletubby. Many of there leaders have from encouraging riots over cartoons of Muhammed. It isnt on the same level.
Muslims may work it out, I hope so. And yes, from a historical standpoint you can certainly point out ridiculous behavior based on Christianity. But in a modern context, I dont think there is a comparison in the least. Our religious leaders stupidity ranges from throwing a fit over Janet Jackson at the superbowl, or pointing out the gay teletubby. Many of there leaders have from encouraging riots over cartoons of Muhammed. It isnt on the same level.
You're right, the response of followers for each religion aren't on the same level right now. I was merely pointing out to an early poster that there is a code of law in the Bible that's comparible to Sharia law. When angelica appeared shocked by my mention of it, I pointed out the passages.
If I have a point beyond that, it's that we should be leary of anyone who wants us to live by their religious code - because likely it'll be their interpretation of that code that hurts us, whatever code that may be.
You're right, the response of followers for each religion aren't on the same level right now. I was merely pointing out to an early poster that there is a code of law in the Bible that's comparible to Sharia law. When angelica appeared shocked by my mention of it, I pointed out the passages.
If I have a point beyond that, it's that we should be leary of anyone who wants us to live by their religious code - because likely it'll be their interpretation of that code that hurts us, whatever code that may be.
As a Brit myself I really don't think its as alarming as it sounds. The knee jerk conclusion is that more and more young muslims are becoming radicalised when in reality the youth of any partilcuar persuasion - be that a religious or political one are always far more radical.
Universities for example have always been crammed full of pro-Marxists who walk around with the image of Che Gueverra on their chests (which I've always thought was pretty ignorant and hypocrtical - reducing someone who lived and died to fight capitalism to a 'logo' that is bought and sold just like the Nike tick). Anyway the point is the majority of them wise up to the futility of revoltuonary zeal by the time they are in their mid twenties.
The trend is probably no different in Muslims - and I really doubt the desire for Shariah Law is that much more prevelant here than it is in most other Western European countries. And its ceratainly a less dangerous situation than persists in the states - where you have Christian fundamentalists with a hot line to and a huge influence over the President and his administration.
Makes a good headline though.
I basically agree with everything you say, but I draw a different conclusion in the end with respect to the level of danger these Muslims pose.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems radical Muslims are increasingly carrying out terrorist attacks to promote their views. They are doing this in a way that no other fringe group does, and they are doing it all over the world. This has become a world-wide movement in a way that makes Pat Robertson jealous.
You have the Che wanna be's in universities and you have the hard-core Christian fanatics in redneck militias. But neither of these types of groups are known for the brutality of their messages like fundamental Muslims are. If you can think of another group that is similar to radical Muslims, please give examples.
Sure you have violent protests sometimes and the occasional abortion clinic bombing or murder. But these groups pale in comarison to the number and scope of violence from Islamic fundamentalism.
Judging from past attacks including the Madrid train bombing and the London subway attack on 7/7 - I think these young Muslims do pose a very dangerous threat.
Hopefully most of them outgrow their mindset by their mid 20's like you said. But it only takes a few who don't to wreak havoc on our society.
Also, and I'm not harping on you specifically, I just wanted to bring up another point, but there is a bit of context lost here with this poll. Like someone mentioned earlier, you would likely find a lot of Christians - maybe even 40% - in this country who would answer the question "would you like the U.S. run by Biblical standards" with a "yes." That doesn't mean they really want to follow the Deuteronomic Code to the letter - or even understand what the Deuteronomic Code is.
I suspect you would find a parallel among Muslims - particularly in the West - in regards to Sharia law.
Also, and I'm not harping on you specifically, I just wanted to bring up another point, but there is a bit of context lost here with this poll. Like someone mentioned earlier, you would likely find a lot of Christians - maybe even 40% - in this country who would answer the question "would you like the U.S. run by Biblical standards" with a "yes." That doesn't mean they really want to follow the Deuteronomic Code to the letter - or even understand what the Deuteronomic Code is.
I suspect you would find a parallel among Muslims - particularly in the West - in regards to Sharia law.
I dont think the # would be that high. I live in Nashville, which has more churches per square mile than any other city in the country (or at least used it, not sure if it still does). And I dont see that type of attitude a bit. Im sure it is out there, but I dont think it is anywhere near 40%. In saying that, Muslims that I have known here wouldnt push for Sharia law either. That might be different in Europe, but most Muslims I do believe in this country are pretty rational people.
Also, and I'm not harping on you specifically, I just wanted to bring up another point, but there is a bit of context lost here with this poll. Like someone mentioned earlier, you would likely find a lot of Christians - maybe even 40% - in this country who would answer the question "would you like the U.S. run by Biblical standards" with a "yes." That doesn't mean they really want to follow the Deuteronomic Code to the letter - or even understand what the Deuteronomic Code is.
I suspect you would find a parallel among Muslims - particularly in the West - in regards to Sharia law.
This is the exact thing that struck me as well. It's one thing to answer on a poll--it's a very different thing to even consider translating that to reality.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I basically agree with everything you say, but I draw a different conclusion in the end with respect to the level of danger these Muslims pose.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems radical Muslims are increasingly carrying out terrorist attacks to promote their views. They are doing this in a way that no other fringe group does, and they are doing it all over the world. This has become a world-wide movement in a way that makes Pat Robertson jealous.
You have the Che wanna be's in universities and you have the hard-core Christian fanatics in redneck militias. But neither of these types of groups are known for the brutality of their messages like fundamental Muslims are. If you can think of another group that is similar to radical Muslims, please give examples.
Sure you have violent protests sometimes and the occasional abortion clinic bombing or murder. But these groups pale in comarison to the number and scope of violence from Islamic fundamentalism.
Judging from past attacks including the Madrid train bombing and the London subway attack on 7/7 - I think these young Muslims do pose a very dangerous threat.
Hopefully most of them outgrow their mindset by their mid 20's like you said. But it only takes a few who don't to wreak havoc on our society.
And yeah I agree they pose more of a threat (mainly because their interpretation of a religous text and the promise of martyrdom makes them far more likely to commit atrocities than any of the other groups you mentioned - it is the most frighteningly violent interpretation of religious dogma the Western world has seen in recent times).
Again I think the fears are overaped and exaggerated though. Please don't think I am belittling the victims of the 7/7 bombings but we should remember that is the ONLY successful attack carried out on British soil. Compare that to the frequency and havoc wrought by the IRA bombings you mentioned.
And even given the point about the warped ideology - out of that 40% of Muslims who say they want Shariah Law it is still only a minority who would endorse let alone carry out murderous terrorist attacks - just like only a minority of those Marxist undergrads would actually participate in any groundswell of violent political revolution.
But yeah I agree they are a threat - but they will never bring about the downfall of Western democratic society and more people will always be killed on our motorways every year - I just always think its important to keep that threat in context. Its when we buy into the misproportinate level of fear that we happily surrender our civil liberties and allow the government to spend what should be welfare and education funds on waging war on any country that is enough of a 'Muslim' target.
Also, and I'm not harping on you specifically, I just wanted to bring up another point, but there is a bit of context lost here with this poll. Like someone mentioned earlier, you would likely find a lot of Christians - maybe even 40% - in this country who would answer the question "would you like the U.S. run by Biblical standards" with a "yes." That doesn't mean they really want to follow the Deuteronomic Code to the letter - or even understand what the Deuteronomic Code is.
I suspect you would find a parallel among Muslims - particularly in the West - in regards to Sharia law.
I don't think the parallel aplies to Muslims from what I know of the religion. True so many people in the U.S. call themselves "Christians" but have no idea what they believe or the origins of their faith.
Many, many people who say they are Christian would probably agree that they would like to see "Christian values" etc. incorprated and upheld in our laws and government. For instance, abortion should be outlawed, people have to swear on Bibles, keep "Under God" in the pledge, etc.....
On the other hand, I think Muslims are far more serious about their faith. They pray five times a day and are reven equired take a trip to Mecca if their means allow them to.
I think they have a much deeper understanding of their faith than Christains, be it the fundamentalist Muslims or moderate Muslims. So I don't think there is any doubt or misunderstanding by Muslims who advocate Sharia law - whereas most Christains would have that degree of missunderstanding.
I basically agree with everything you say, but I draw a different conclusion in the end with respect to the level of danger these Muslims pose.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems radical Muslims are increasingly carrying out terrorist attacks to promote their views. They are doing this in a way that no other fringe group does, and they are doing it all over the world. This has become a world-wide movement in a way that makes Pat Robertson jealous.
You have the Che wanna be's in universities and you have the hard-core Christian fanatics in redneck militias. But neither of these types of groups are known for the brutality of their messages like fundamental Muslims are. If you can think of another group that is similar to radical Muslims, please give examples.
Sure you have violent protests sometimes and the occasional abortion clinic bombing or murder. But these groups pale in comarison to the number and scope of violence from Islamic fundamentalism.
Judging from past attacks including the Madrid train bombing and the London subway attack on 7/7 - I think these young Muslims do pose a very dangerous threat.
Hopefully most of them outgrow their mindset by their mid 20's like you said. But it only takes a few who don't to wreak havoc on our society.
as raindog pointed out though, christians were the same way a few hundred years ago and they have a head start. islam is radicalized right now, but it will pass. the question is, do we want to antagonize and entrench the radical elements or speed up their growth? what this means is reaching out a peaceful hand, dropping sanctions that dont work, and letting the dollar do our work for us. the fact is, once they get a taste of capitalist culture and starting getting their slice of the pie, their desire to kill people wil drop. but as long as we marginalize them, they will hate us for our condescension and cling stubbornly to the radical ideas that lead to violence.
I'll have to go with the Sharia folks on that one. But it's a pretty tight race.
im with you on that one. the key difference for me, though, is there aren't many-if any-sharia folks trying to mess with me. one terrorist attack by muslims every decade is not as alarming to me as the consistent daily efforts of the christians in the states.
as raindog pointed out though, christians were the same way a few hundred years ago and they have a head start. islam is radicalized right now, but it will pass. the question is, do we want to antagonize and entrench the radical elements or speed up their growth? what this means is reaching out a peaceful hand, dropping sanctions that dont work, and letting the dollar do our work for us. the fact is, once they get a taste of capitalist culture and starting getting their slice of the pie, their desire to kill people wil drop. but as long as we marginalize them, they will hate us for our condescension and cling stubbornly to the radical ideas that lead to violence.
I think it is more sex than capitalism, even though the 2 can certainly go hand in hand. But when you live in a culture of covered women and virtually non existant sexually, then I think that can drive someone to want to be a martyr, where they can supposedly fulfill their sexual desires.
And yeah I agree they pose more of a threat (mainly because their interpretation of a religous text and the promise of martyrdom makes them far more likely to commit atrocities than any of the other groups you mentioned - it is the most frighteningly violent interpretation of religious dogma the Western world has seen in recent times).
Again I think the fears are overaped and exaggerated though. Please don't think I am belittling the victims of the 7/7 bombings but we should remember that is the ONLY successful attack carried out on British soil. Compare that to the frequency and havoc wrought by the IRA bombings you mentioned.
And even given the point about the warped ideology - out of that 40% of Muslims who say they want Shariah Law it is still only a minority who would endorse let alone carry out murderous terrorist attacks - just like only a minority of those Marxist undergrads would actually participate in any groundswell of violent political revolution.
But yeah I agree they are a threat - but they will never bring about the downfall of Western democratic society and more people will always be killed on our motorways every year - I just always think its important to keep that threat in context. Its when we buy into the misproportinate level of fear that we happily surrender our civil liberties and allow the government to spend what should be welfare and education funds on waging war on any country that is enough of a 'Muslim' target.
Yep, I think everything you say if right. It's people like Bush who frame this problem as "the greatest threat to our society" that stir the pot more than it needs to be.
And the anti-Bush folks are equally to blame with their knee-jerk "These Muslims aren't a problem/they are just a product of Republican-led U.S. foreign policy).
Both sides are wrong and fail to seriously address the problem with responsible context.
im with you on that one. the key difference for me, though, is there aren't many-if any-sharia folks trying to mess with me. one terrorist attack by muslims every decade is not as alarming to me as the consistent daily efforts of the christians in the states.
This is where I dont agree at all. What do christians do in the states? LIke I mentioned earlier, I live in the heart of the bible belt and dont see this behavior that some of you guys see. Sure, there are things I disagree with that christian groups advocate. But I certainly dont see anything that I would consider a huge deal. So, could you just point out some of these things that you find so alarming. And we might obviously disagree on what alarming is, but I am not overly alarmed at all. Sure, the gay marriage thing or something of that nature is ridiculous, but I dont really consider it alarming.
I think it is more sex than capitalism, even though the 2 can certainly go hand in hand. But when you live in a culture of covered women and virtually non existant sexually, then I think that can drive someone to want to be a martyr, where they can supposedly fulfill their sexual desires.
that's true. i do honestly believe that sexual repression plays a taboo role in this. the sin of masturbation, absolute subjection/hiding of women. i mean this in all seriousness (though it sounds satirical), but these guys are horny. they have to turn that frustrated sexual tension somewhere... so it becomes targeted at those people who taunt them with it, cos lets face it, american culture is hyper-sexualized all the time.
that's true. i do honestly believe that sexual repression plays a taboo role in this. the sin of masturbation, absolute subjection/hiding of women. i mean this in all seriousness (though it sounds satirical), but these guys are horny. they have to turn that frustrated sexual tension somewhere... so it becomes targeted at those people who taunt them with it, cos lets face it, american culture is hyper-sexualized all the time.
I think its a huge factor. All of the taboo of sex in this life, but it is a reward in the next life. Why wouldnt you want to get to the next life sooner by becoming a martyr?
I don't think the parallel aplies to Muslims from what I know of the religion. True so many people in the U.S. call themselves "Christians" but have no idea what they believe or the origins of their faith.
Many, many people who say they are Christian would probably agree that they would like to see "Christian values" etc. incorprated and upheld in our laws and government. For instance, abortion should be outlawed, people have to swear on Bibles, keep "Under God" in the pledge, etc.....
On the other hand, I think Muslims are far more serious about their faith. They pray five times a day and are reven equired take a trip to Mecca if their means allow them to.
I think they have a much deeper understanding of their faith than Christains, be it the fundamentalist Muslims or moderate Muslims. So I don't think there is any doubt or misunderstanding by Muslims who advocate Sharia law - whereas most Christains would have that degree of missunderstanding.
"The newspaper, in a report to which the Associated Press contributed, also said that despite concerns about Islamophobia, the great majority of Muslims � 84 percent � said they have been treated fairly by British society and feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain than with Muslims abroad.
We are talking about Muslims who are thoroughly westernised, here. That is a big distinction. It comes down to ideals vs reality, then. Most people don't come close to their ideals, most of the time. My boyfriend for example, will stand behind all kinds of Catholic ideals for the sake of the argument but doesn't come close to living them.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
that's true. i do honestly believe that sexual repression plays a taboo role in this. the sin of masturbation, absolute subjection/hiding of women. i mean this in all seriousness (though it sounds satirical), but these guys are horny. they have to turn that frustrated sexual tension somewhere... so it becomes targeted at those people who taunt them with it, cos lets face it, american culture is hyper-sexualized all the time.
Okay Kudos to this thread and the MT. This is something I hadn't thought of before but is very interesting. I mean, it's funny at first but when you really think about it - DAMN it could very well be true!!!
We're talking about supressing the most basic not to mention one of the strongest, uncontrollable human emotions.
Look at the West. When we give into our temptations, we often cheat on our spouces, etc.... Okay, compare to a place like Saudi Arabia where they cut your head off if you caught being unfaithful - not to mention being hung for just being gay or getting whipped for not wearing "appropriate" clothing.
These people are being suppressed big time, so why wouldn't that result in big-time reprisal on those they can release this anger on??????
This is where I dont agree at all. What do christians do in the states? LIke I mentioned earlier, I live in the heart of the bible belt and dont see this behavior that some of you guys see. Sure, there are things I disagree with that christian groups advocate. But I certainly dont see anything that I would consider a huge deal. So, could you just point out some of these things that you find so alarming. And we might obviously disagree on what alarming is, but I am not overly alarmed at all. Sure, the gay marriage thing or something of that nature is ridiculous, but I dont really consider it alarming.
i consider it alarming. here's a few:
- abstinence-only sex ed that drives up unwanted pregnancies, which increases abortion rates and welfare expenses
- replacing scientific doctrine with creationism at a time when the US is already falling badly behind the rest of the world in math and science
- the gay marriage nonsense
- characterization of our issues with terrorism as an apocalyptic "end-times" struggle against the evil muslims that deters diplomacy and encourages hatred, misunderstanding, and destabilizes and undermines our efforts to achieve resolution
those are the big ones. i think evangelical christians have an enormous detrimental impact on our economy by 1) distracting from solving real problems by making everything a moral war and 2) fighting to enact legislation that will have enormous economic aftershocks. in addition, there is no willingness to compromise or ability to reason with such people becos they have a black/white worldview that sees any compromise as an immoral betrayal of their religion. it's frightening.
Comments
I think we have bigger problem with idiot Christians here in the states.
You have a point with that one specific passage, and I am sure a few others. But overall, no one is advocating to live under deuteronomy law. Basically my point, is that you cant compare this to sharia law in the least. There are actually countries that live under sharia law, and there is at least a somewhat significant portion of muslims who want to see it put in place in non muslim countries. There is no significant movement to advance deuteronomy law.
And, to be fair, Christianity is older than Islam. Go back a couple hundred years, and you'll find Christians as scary as these Sharia Muslims. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I believe that Muslims will eventually work this shit out.
thanks for the clarification. You have a point with that.
Oh...my mistake then
Regardless, this is not a good thing, nor are Christian fundamentalists in this or any other nation. Anyone who suggests ruling the lives of others based on the fantasies in their heads should be considered dangerous.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Muslims may work it out, I hope so. And yes, from a historical standpoint you can certainly point out ridiculous behavior based on Christianity. But in a modern context, I dont think there is a comparison in the least. Our religious leaders stupidity ranges from throwing a fit over Janet Jackson at the superbowl, or pointing out the gay teletubby. Many of there leaders have from encouraging riots over cartoons of Muhammed. It isnt on the same level.
Hehe...pretty much, yes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
If I have a point beyond that, it's that we should be leary of anyone who wants us to live by their religious code - because likely it'll be their interpretation of that code that hurts us, whatever code that may be.
Well I can agree with that.
I basically agree with everything you say, but I draw a different conclusion in the end with respect to the level of danger these Muslims pose.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems radical Muslims are increasingly carrying out terrorist attacks to promote their views. They are doing this in a way that no other fringe group does, and they are doing it all over the world. This has become a world-wide movement in a way that makes Pat Robertson jealous.
You have the Che wanna be's in universities and you have the hard-core Christian fanatics in redneck militias. But neither of these types of groups are known for the brutality of their messages like fundamental Muslims are. If you can think of another group that is similar to radical Muslims, please give examples.
Sure you have violent protests sometimes and the occasional abortion clinic bombing or murder. But these groups pale in comarison to the number and scope of violence from Islamic fundamentalism.
Judging from past attacks including the Madrid train bombing and the London subway attack on 7/7 - I think these young Muslims do pose a very dangerous threat.
Hopefully most of them outgrow their mindset by their mid 20's like you said. But it only takes a few who don't to wreak havoc on our society.
I suspect you would find a parallel among Muslims - particularly in the West - in regards to Sharia law.
I dont think the # would be that high. I live in Nashville, which has more churches per square mile than any other city in the country (or at least used it, not sure if it still does). And I dont see that type of attitude a bit. Im sure it is out there, but I dont think it is anywhere near 40%. In saying that, Muslims that I have known here wouldnt push for Sharia law either. That might be different in Europe, but most Muslims I do believe in this country are pretty rational people.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
becos they're both fucking nuts and it's fun to see who's nuttier.
I'll have to go with the Sharia folks on that one. But it's a pretty tight race.
And yeah I agree they pose more of a threat (mainly because their interpretation of a religous text and the promise of martyrdom makes them far more likely to commit atrocities than any of the other groups you mentioned - it is the most frighteningly violent interpretation of religious dogma the Western world has seen in recent times).
Again I think the fears are overaped and exaggerated though. Please don't think I am belittling the victims of the 7/7 bombings but we should remember that is the ONLY successful attack carried out on British soil. Compare that to the frequency and havoc wrought by the IRA bombings you mentioned.
And even given the point about the warped ideology - out of that 40% of Muslims who say they want Shariah Law it is still only a minority who would endorse let alone carry out murderous terrorist attacks - just like only a minority of those Marxist undergrads would actually participate in any groundswell of violent political revolution.
But yeah I agree they are a threat - but they will never bring about the downfall of Western democratic society and more people will always be killed on our motorways every year - I just always think its important to keep that threat in context. Its when we buy into the misproportinate level of fear that we happily surrender our civil liberties and allow the government to spend what should be welfare and education funds on waging war on any country that is enough of a 'Muslim' target.
I don't think the parallel aplies to Muslims from what I know of the religion. True so many people in the U.S. call themselves "Christians" but have no idea what they believe or the origins of their faith.
Many, many people who say they are Christian would probably agree that they would like to see "Christian values" etc. incorprated and upheld in our laws and government. For instance, abortion should be outlawed, people have to swear on Bibles, keep "Under God" in the pledge, etc.....
On the other hand, I think Muslims are far more serious about their faith. They pray five times a day and are reven equired take a trip to Mecca if their means allow them to.
I think they have a much deeper understanding of their faith than Christains, be it the fundamentalist Muslims or moderate Muslims. So I don't think there is any doubt or misunderstanding by Muslims who advocate Sharia law - whereas most Christains would have that degree of missunderstanding.
as raindog pointed out though, christians were the same way a few hundred years ago and they have a head start. islam is radicalized right now, but it will pass. the question is, do we want to antagonize and entrench the radical elements or speed up their growth? what this means is reaching out a peaceful hand, dropping sanctions that dont work, and letting the dollar do our work for us. the fact is, once they get a taste of capitalist culture and starting getting their slice of the pie, their desire to kill people wil drop. but as long as we marginalize them, they will hate us for our condescension and cling stubbornly to the radical ideas that lead to violence.
im with you on that one. the key difference for me, though, is there aren't many-if any-sharia folks trying to mess with me. one terrorist attack by muslims every decade is not as alarming to me as the consistent daily efforts of the christians in the states.
I think it is more sex than capitalism, even though the 2 can certainly go hand in hand. But when you live in a culture of covered women and virtually non existant sexually, then I think that can drive someone to want to be a martyr, where they can supposedly fulfill their sexual desires.
Yep, I think everything you say if right. It's people like Bush who frame this problem as "the greatest threat to our society" that stir the pot more than it needs to be.
And the anti-Bush folks are equally to blame with their knee-jerk "These Muslims aren't a problem/they are just a product of Republican-led U.S. foreign policy).
Both sides are wrong and fail to seriously address the problem with responsible context.
This is where I dont agree at all. What do christians do in the states? LIke I mentioned earlier, I live in the heart of the bible belt and dont see this behavior that some of you guys see. Sure, there are things I disagree with that christian groups advocate. But I certainly dont see anything that I would consider a huge deal. So, could you just point out some of these things that you find so alarming. And we might obviously disagree on what alarming is, but I am not overly alarmed at all. Sure, the gay marriage thing or something of that nature is ridiculous, but I dont really consider it alarming.
that's true. i do honestly believe that sexual repression plays a taboo role in this. the sin of masturbation, absolute subjection/hiding of women. i mean this in all seriousness (though it sounds satirical), but these guys are horny. they have to turn that frustrated sexual tension somewhere... so it becomes targeted at those people who taunt them with it, cos lets face it, american culture is hyper-sexualized all the time.
I think its a huge factor. All of the taboo of sex in this life, but it is a reward in the next life. Why wouldnt you want to get to the next life sooner by becoming a martyr?
"The newspaper, in a report to which the Associated Press contributed, also said that despite concerns about Islamophobia, the great majority of Muslims � 84 percent � said they have been treated fairly by British society and feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain than with Muslims abroad.
We are talking about Muslims who are thoroughly westernised, here. That is a big distinction. It comes down to ideals vs reality, then. Most people don't come close to their ideals, most of the time. My boyfriend for example, will stand behind all kinds of Catholic ideals for the sake of the argument but doesn't come close to living them.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Okay Kudos to this thread and the MT. This is something I hadn't thought of before but is very interesting. I mean, it's funny at first but when you really think about it - DAMN it could very well be true!!!
We're talking about supressing the most basic not to mention one of the strongest, uncontrollable human emotions.
Look at the West. When we give into our temptations, we often cheat on our spouces, etc.... Okay, compare to a place like Saudi Arabia where they cut your head off if you caught being unfaithful - not to mention being hung for just being gay or getting whipped for not wearing "appropriate" clothing.
These people are being suppressed big time, so why wouldn't that result in big-time reprisal on those they can release this anger on??????
i consider it alarming. here's a few:
- abstinence-only sex ed that drives up unwanted pregnancies, which increases abortion rates and welfare expenses
- replacing scientific doctrine with creationism at a time when the US is already falling badly behind the rest of the world in math and science
- the gay marriage nonsense
- characterization of our issues with terrorism as an apocalyptic "end-times" struggle against the evil muslims that deters diplomacy and encourages hatred, misunderstanding, and destabilizes and undermines our efforts to achieve resolution
those are the big ones. i think evangelical christians have an enormous detrimental impact on our economy by 1) distracting from solving real problems by making everything a moral war and 2) fighting to enact legislation that will have enormous economic aftershocks. in addition, there is no willingness to compromise or ability to reason with such people becos they have a black/white worldview that sees any compromise as an immoral betrayal of their religion. it's frightening.