I am a liberal who likely would agree in theory to much of what Nader would like to do with this country. However, he is far from a viable candidate. He would never garner the support needed to win over independents and centrists, and that is a fact. His views are far left of mainstream America.
We do not need someone who would divide this country, much in the same way that Bush and the Republicans have done this decade.
Further, if elected, he would be rendered impotent by Congress, who would not just see, oh, Nader wants us to do this or that, so we had better get in line! Where are the Green Party members in congress to push across his initiatives.
I've said it before, and I know you all don't agree, but trying to challenge the 2 party system from the top down will NEVER work! You need to build a following at the local level --> state level --> and then MAYBE you will have the influence to take on the Democrats and Republicans.
Until then, keep clinging to your idealism... Me, I will proudly cast my vote for Barack Obama, and hope that there are enough sensible, pragmatic people in this country to do the same.
And voting for someone who offers no real change in the system will never work to change the system, either.
It's like you're saying the only way to change things is to keep voting for things that aren't a change at all Good luck with that.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
lost elections that put the worst president in history in control of the country. thanks nader.
id almost like to see nader magically elected just to see how quickly his supporters turn and tear him apart when confronted with reality.
We all make what we see as reality with our actions and thoughts. Some of us just have higher aspirations and choose not to settle for what others say is possible but rather what we ourselves view as right and ideal. We strive for what has yet to come in an attempt to make this place better. Without visionaries and progressives we would remain stuck in the same place with the same problems for eternity. It's called being stalled. There has always been a steady supply of people just like you, cynical and dismissive, there to tell others that their dreams are not possible. This same pattern has gone on for years with every attempt made to change the current situations. It's a damn good thing these visionaries have always known it is best to ignore types like you and go for their dreams regardless. It's called change/evolution...and there is no stopping it. It always comes eventually with determination, time, presistence and effort.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
We all make what we see as reality with our actions and thoughts. Some of us just have higher aspirations and choose not to settle for what others say is possible but rather what we ourselves view as right and ideal. We strive for what has yet to come in an attempt to make this place better. Without visionaries and progressives we would remain stuck in the same place with the same problems for eternity. It's called being stalled. There has always been a steady supply of people just like you, cynical and dismissive, there to tell others that their dreams are not possible. This same pattern has gone on for years with every attempt made to change the current situations. It's a damn good thing these visionaries have always known it is best to ignore types like you and go for their dreams regardless. It's called change/evolution...and there is no stopping it. It always comes eventually with determination, time, presistence and effort.
nader's had 8 years. how many more years before this "change" gets him into office?
the point is that nader in office would not change a damn thing. he doesn't have the power, or the support of the american people. for all you say about obama not bringing change, nader would accomplish no more and probably less as president.
change is all well and good, but you have to convince people it is good. you dont elect a left winger and impose change from a fringe group. that's fascism. the fact is americans don't want nader's change. they want reasonable change, intelligent and considered change. they want to test the waters before committing to a course that may not work. the extreme left doesn't understand this. they think everyone in the country is or should think exactly the way they do on every issue and that those who don't are somehow blind, or settling, or has no vision. you want to call me a cynic, fine. but your views are condescending and elitist if you think you can say we have no vision just because we don't think ralph nader would be a good president. i wouldn't vote for nader even if he was a lock to win the election. your aspirations are not "higher" than mine just because you feel your views are more "right."
nader's had 8 years. how many more years before this "change" gets him into office?
the point is that nader in office would not change a damn thing. he doesn't have the power, or the support of the american people. for all you say about obama not bringing change, nader would accomplish no more and probably less as president.
change is all well and good, but you have to convince people it is good. you dont elect a left winger and impose change from a fringe group. that's fascism. the fact is americans don't want nader's change. they want reasonable change, intelligent and considered change. they want to test the waters before committing to a course that may not work. the extreme left doesn't understand this. they think everyone in the country is or should think exactly the way they do on every issue and that those who don't are somehow blind, or settling, or has no vision. you want to call me a cynic, fine. but your views are condescending and elitist if you think you can say we have no vision just because we don't think ralph nader would be a good president. i wouldn't vote for nader even if he was a lock to win the election. your aspirations are not "higher" than mine just because you feel your views are more "right."
Way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. :rolleyes:
I was only speaking for my own views and how I back them up, it would do you well to try the same.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
And voting for someone who offers no real change in the system will never work to change the system, either.
It's like you're saying the only way to change things is to keep voting for things that aren't a change at all Good luck with that.
You Nader people are arrogant!
What makes you so much more enlightened as to what Obama will and will not do than those of us who believe he is our best chance. If you honestly believe that Obama will not change the way this country is run compared to the last eight years then you are, quite frankly, out of touch with reality!
Nader's "change," as stated by catch22 is not the kind of change that Americans will ever vote for in any kind of significant numbers. It is IMAGINARY!
BTW I hope that I and the rest of this country do have "good luck with that" McCain in the White House would be a disaster for all of us, including you Nader-lovers out there.
We, as a nation, have the the freedom to vote for whomever we feel is best and I'm going to do just that and use my voice to most accurately reflect my beliefs. I don't care what everyone else is doing or what others tell me is possible. I think for myself and don't follow numbers in making my decisions.
nobody is telling you to do any different...
i will never understand the paranoia of Nader or his supporters... nobody is telling you what to do abook, they are just saying dont expect them to do the same
nader's had 8 years. how many more years before this "change" gets him into office?
the point is that nader in office would not change a damn thing. he doesn't have the power, or the support of the american people. for all you say about obama not bringing change, nader would accomplish no more and probably less as president.
change is all well and good, but you have to convince people it is good. you dont elect a left winger and impose change from a fringe group. that's fascism. the fact is americans don't want nader's change. they want reasonable change, intelligent and considered change. they want to test the waters before committing to a course that may not work. the extreme left doesn't understand this. they think everyone in the country is or should think exactly the way they do on every issue and that those who don't are somehow blind, or settling, or has no vision. you want to call me a cynic, fine. but your views are condescending and elitist if you think you can say we have no vision just because we don't think ralph nader would be a good president. i wouldn't vote for nader even if he was a lock to win the election. your aspirations are not "higher" than mine just because you feel your views are more "right."
this is fantastic.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
What makes you so much more enlightened as to what Obama will and will not do than those of us who believe he is our best chance. If you honestly believe that Obama will not change the way this country is run compared to the last eight years then you are, quite frankly, out of touch with reality!
Nader's "change," as stated by catch22 is not the kind of change that Americans will ever vote for in any kind of significant numbers. It is IMAGINARY!
BTW I hope that I and the rest of this country do have "good luck with that" McCain in the White House would be a disaster for all of us, including you Nader-lovers out there.
seriously. i can't trust someone who can't see a difference between mccain and obama. and while nader supporters can hide in the safety of their vote and effects that will never be realized, we're ALL going to have to suffer the effects of a mccain administration if that's the way this will shake out.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
What makes you so much more enlightened as to what Obama will and will not do than those of us who believe he is our best chance.
It's got nothing to do with enlightenment, it's just a simple matter of taking a realistic and historic look at major party presidents over the last 100 years or so. Obama answers to his biggest supporters...the corporations who fund the Democratic Party. That's it. He doesn't answer to you and me. Therefore, he's not our answer.
I don't think Nader is the answer either...that's a whole other story. But if I still believed that the election process in the US was actually functioning, I'd definitely support him...it's just a no-brainer when you look at both the words and actions of all the candidates.
It's got nothing to do with enlightenment, it's just a simple matter of taking a realistic and historic look at major party presidents over the last 100 years or so. Obama answers to his biggest supporters...the corporations who fund the Democratic Party. That's it. He doesn't answer to you and me. Therefore, he's not our answer.
I don't think Nader is the answer either...that's a whole other story. But if I still believed that the election process in the US was actually functioning, I'd definitely support him...it's just a no-brainer when you look at both the words and actions of all the candidates.
Peace.
I guess it comes down to pragmatism vs. idealism.
According to you then, there was no difference between 8 years under Clinton and 8 years under Bush? As I recall, Clinton left with a budget surplus, a booming economy, relative peace in the world, good standing with other countries, doubled funding for NIH research, roadless wilderness act, etc... What will Bush leave us with? A record deficit, 2 unending wars, an economic recession, a housing crisis, the world hates us, etc... Need I go on?
I'm sorry, but I simply do NOT understand how you can sit back after the last 8 years and say there is no difference between the 2 parties. Sure there are problems with both, but IMO the differences are there and they are quite stark!
And I don't think that you are acting enlightened, but many of the Nader supporters definitely prance around here with a holier than thou attitude.
What makes you so much more enlightened as to what Obama will and will not do than those of us who believe he is our best chance. If you honestly believe that Obama will not change the way this country is run compared to the last eight years then you are, quite frankly, out of touch with reality!
Yeah he (Obama) will change things a bit, but is that all you want? A little change? You just want to remove the knife from your back...just an inch, not all the way out.
But then again, Nader wants to pull the entire knife out at once? That can be a bad thing also. I know this, I had a knife in me once. You pull it out wrong and it'll do more damage and the knife that is stuck in the americans is Serrated. Ouch!
Nevertheless, With Obama Americans will just fall into that big high fructose corn syrup filled bubble they like to sit in every now and then. Like the clinton bubble "Everythings good, the world loves us, we are the best" Then a country that you fucked over will attack you or something and then you all say "Oh shit, why do they hate us?...we even have a black president" "usa usa usa" and then the circle continues.
But something you all must admit, even a little bit. What Nader stands for, the issues he speaks of. Are they not good things? Don't you just wish that Obama was more like Nader? Just a bit perhaps?
Maybe Americans are like crack or heroin addicts, you know...you gotta ease them off it, maybe Obama is the Methadone? The pain reliever the crack addicted americans needs, but watch out, because it can serioulsy fuck you up too.
Yeah he (Obama) will change things a bit, but is that all you want? A little change? You just want to remove the knife from your back...just an inch, not all the way out.
But then again, Nader wants to pull the entire knife out at once? That can be a bad thing also. I know this, I had a knife in me once. You pull it out wrong and it'll do more damage and the knife that is stuck in the americans is Serrated. Ouch!
Nevertheless, With Obama Americans will just fall into that big high fructose corn syrup filled bubble they like to sit in every now and then. Like the clinton bubble "Everythings good, the world loves us, we are the best" Then a country that you fucked over will attack you or something and then you all say "Oh shit, why do they hate us?...we even have a black president" "usa usa usa" and then the circle continues.
But something you all must admit, even a little bit. What Nader stands for, the issues he speaks of. Are they not good things? Don't you just wish that Obama was more like Nader? Just a bit perhaps?
Maybe Americans are like crack or heroin addicts, you know...you gotta ease them off it, maybe Obama is the Methadone? The pain reliever the crack addicted americans needs, but watch out, because it can serioulsy fuck you up too.
Nice analogies! In that case let me be the first one admitted to rehab!
Maybe you're right, Obama isn't perfect. I probably would agree more with Nader on an issue like Universal Health Care than Obama, but there are also issues where the opposite would be true.
I think Nader would be a very divisive character in the capitol, and his presidency would not be all that his supporters believe it would be.
Ralph Nader may actually be clinically insane. He wants to tax the public airwaves--that's right folks Ralph Nader wants to tax the air.
Then he drones on and on and on and on about corporate welfare, and corporate control and other conspiracy type things you expect to hear on "Coast to Coast AM."
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
didn't you all learn from the 2000 Election?
Votes for Nader took precious votes away from Gore! if Gore won, the entire universe would be different right now? Do you really want that to happen again? For God's sake please don't vote for Nader.
"...like a word misplaced, nothing said, what a waste.."
"Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
6-01-06
6/25/08
Free Speedy
and Metsy!
seriously. i can't trust someone who can't see a difference between mccain and obama. and while nader supporters can hide in the safety of their vote and effects that will never be realized, we're ALL going to have to suffer the effects of a mccain administration if that's the way this will shake out.
It's simple. Obama is not good enough in my eyes to deserve my vote. Nader is. Obama is not owed anyone's vote simply because he is a Democrat and not a Republican. It's no one fault but his own if he doesn't make himself worthy of our votes. Many of us are completely turned off by sooooo much of what Obama has done and stands for. Nader on the other inspires me, has an outstanding resume and is very much deserving of my vote in my eyes. That's what it boils down to....how much we are willing to settle when we cast our vote.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
didn't you all learn from the 2000 Election?
Votes for Nader took precious votes away from Gore! if Gore won, the entire universe would be different right now? Do you really want that to happen again? For God's sake please don't vote for Nader.
The Gore you see now is not the same one who ran in 2000. He was terrible then. To say the universe would be different is a bit of a stretch.
As for this election, that's another story. Comparing the 2000 elections to this one doesn't make any sense, if you ask me.
didn't you all learn from the 2000 Election?
Votes for Nader took precious votes away from Gore! if Gore won, the entire universe would be different right now? Do you really want that to happen again? For God's sake please don't vote for Nader.
I had to read this a few times over to recognise the lack of sarcasm.
Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
I had to read this a few times over to recognise the lack of sarcasm.
No sarcasm! No Nader! :( For the love of God! Geesh.
My point about votes for Nader is I feel that it had a contribution in Gore's loss. Not as big as the whole state of Fla. and "Hanging Chad" fiasco, but an effect nonetheless.
"...like a word misplaced, nothing said, what a waste.."
"Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
6-01-06
6/25/08
Free Speedy
and Metsy!
Comments
And voting for someone who offers no real change in the system will never work to change the system, either.
It's like you're saying the only way to change things is to keep voting for things that aren't a change at all
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Hi NMyTree
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://www.votenader.org/
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
lost elections that put the worst president in history in control of the country. thanks nader.
id almost like to see nader magically elected just to see how quickly his supporters turn and tear him apart when confronted with reality.
We all make what we see as reality with our actions and thoughts. Some of us just have higher aspirations and choose not to settle for what others say is possible but rather what we ourselves view as right and ideal. We strive for what has yet to come in an attempt to make this place better. Without visionaries and progressives we would remain stuck in the same place with the same problems for eternity. It's called being stalled. There has always been a steady supply of people just like you, cynical and dismissive, there to tell others that their dreams are not possible. This same pattern has gone on for years with every attempt made to change the current situations. It's a damn good thing these visionaries have always known it is best to ignore types like you and go for their dreams regardless. It's called change/evolution...and there is no stopping it. It always comes eventually with determination, time, presistence and effort.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
nader's had 8 years. how many more years before this "change" gets him into office?
the point is that nader in office would not change a damn thing. he doesn't have the power, or the support of the american people. for all you say about obama not bringing change, nader would accomplish no more and probably less as president.
change is all well and good, but you have to convince people it is good. you dont elect a left winger and impose change from a fringe group. that's fascism. the fact is americans don't want nader's change. they want reasonable change, intelligent and considered change. they want to test the waters before committing to a course that may not work. the extreme left doesn't understand this. they think everyone in the country is or should think exactly the way they do on every issue and that those who don't are somehow blind, or settling, or has no vision. you want to call me a cynic, fine. but your views are condescending and elitist if you think you can say we have no vision just because we don't think ralph nader would be a good president. i wouldn't vote for nader even if he was a lock to win the election. your aspirations are not "higher" than mine just because you feel your views are more "right."
Way to put a bunch of words in my mouth. :rolleyes:
I was only speaking for my own views and how I back them up, it would do you well to try the same.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
You Nader people are arrogant!
What makes you so much more enlightened as to what Obama will and will not do than those of us who believe he is our best chance. If you honestly believe that Obama will not change the way this country is run compared to the last eight years then you are, quite frankly, out of touch with reality!
Nader's "change," as stated by catch22 is not the kind of change that Americans will ever vote for in any kind of significant numbers. It is IMAGINARY!
BTW I hope that I and the rest of this country do have "good luck with that" McCain in the White House would be a disaster for all of us, including you Nader-lovers out there.
nobody is telling you to do any different...
i will never understand the paranoia of Nader or his supporters... nobody is telling you what to do abook, they are just saying dont expect them to do the same
this is fantastic.
cross the river to the eastside
seriously. i can't trust someone who can't see a difference between mccain and obama. and while nader supporters can hide in the safety of their vote and effects that will never be realized, we're ALL going to have to suffer the effects of a mccain administration if that's the way this will shake out.
cross the river to the eastside
It's got nothing to do with enlightenment, it's just a simple matter of taking a realistic and historic look at major party presidents over the last 100 years or so. Obama answers to his biggest supporters...the corporations who fund the Democratic Party. That's it. He doesn't answer to you and me. Therefore, he's not our answer.
I don't think Nader is the answer either...that's a whole other story. But if I still believed that the election process in the US was actually functioning, I'd definitely support him...it's just a no-brainer when you look at both the words and actions of all the candidates.
Peace.
I guess it comes down to pragmatism vs. idealism.
According to you then, there was no difference between 8 years under Clinton and 8 years under Bush? As I recall, Clinton left with a budget surplus, a booming economy, relative peace in the world, good standing with other countries, doubled funding for NIH research, roadless wilderness act, etc... What will Bush leave us with? A record deficit, 2 unending wars, an economic recession, a housing crisis, the world hates us, etc... Need I go on?
I'm sorry, but I simply do NOT understand how you can sit back after the last 8 years and say there is no difference between the 2 parties. Sure there are problems with both, but IMO the differences are there and they are quite stark!
And I don't think that you are acting enlightened, but many of the Nader supporters definitely prance around here with a holier than thou attitude.
Yeah he (Obama) will change things a bit, but is that all you want? A little change? You just want to remove the knife from your back...just an inch, not all the way out.
But then again, Nader wants to pull the entire knife out at once? That can be a bad thing also. I know this, I had a knife in me once. You pull it out wrong and it'll do more damage and the knife that is stuck in the americans is Serrated. Ouch!
Nevertheless, With Obama Americans will just fall into that big high fructose corn syrup filled bubble they like to sit in every now and then. Like the clinton bubble "Everythings good, the world loves us, we are the best" Then a country that you fucked over will attack you or something and then you all say "Oh shit, why do they hate us?...we even have a black president" "usa usa usa" and then the circle continues.
But something you all must admit, even a little bit. What Nader stands for, the issues he speaks of. Are they not good things? Don't you just wish that Obama was more like Nader? Just a bit perhaps?
Maybe Americans are like crack or heroin addicts, you know...you gotta ease them off it, maybe Obama is the Methadone? The pain reliever the crack addicted americans needs, but watch out, because it can serioulsy fuck you up too.
Nice analogies! In that case let me be the first one admitted to rehab!
Maybe you're right, Obama isn't perfect. I probably would agree more with Nader on an issue like Universal Health Care than Obama, but there are also issues where the opposite would be true.
I think Nader would be a very divisive character in the capitol, and his presidency would not be all that his supporters believe it would be.
Then he drones on and on and on and on about corporate welfare, and corporate control and other conspiracy type things you expect to hear on "Coast to Coast AM."
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Votes for Nader took precious votes away from Gore! if Gore won, the entire universe would be different right now? Do you really want that to happen again? For God's sake please don't vote for Nader.
"Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
6-01-06
6/25/08
Free Speedy
and Metsy!
It's simple. Obama is not good enough in my eyes to deserve my vote. Nader is. Obama is not owed anyone's vote simply because he is a Democrat and not a Republican. It's no one fault but his own if he doesn't make himself worthy of our votes. Many of us are completely turned off by sooooo much of what Obama has done and stands for. Nader on the other inspires me, has an outstanding resume and is very much deserving of my vote in my eyes. That's what it boils down to....how much we are willing to settle when we cast our vote.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
As for this election, that's another story. Comparing the 2000 elections to this one doesn't make any sense, if you ask me.
My point about votes for Nader is I feel that it had a contribution in Gore's loss. Not as big as the whole state of Fla. and "Hanging Chad" fiasco, but an effect nonetheless.
"Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
6-01-06
6/25/08
Free Speedy
and Metsy!
:eek:
Oh no :(
"Sometimes life should be consumed in measured doses"
6-01-06
6/25/08
Free Speedy
and Metsy!