Money as Debt

Abuskedti

farfromglorified wrote:

"Money is not traded because of its perceived value"

"It represents something of value"

Dude, this is a total contradiction.

The perceived value of money comes from the fact that it represents something of value. The true value of money comes from how accurate that representation is. If the money is backed by gold (or better yet is gold), the represented value remains true. If it is only backed by promises, its value is only as good as the delivery on those promises.

Gold would only represent promises - since none of us actually use gold. Gold is much heavier.

farfromglorified

know1 wrote:

There's no guarantee that gold will always be in demand. I agree with you about paper money, though.

You're quite right -- there is no guarantee. However, that demand has remained existent pretty much at anytime and anyplace within the history of civilization.

RainDog

Is there really enough gold in the world to start stamping out coins for everyone?

farfromglorified

Abuskedti wrote:

Gold would only represent promises - since none of us actually use gold. Gold is much heavier.

No, gold wouldn't represent promises. Gold would represent the intrinsic value of itself based on its limited supply and demand. It could then be exchanged for goods and services, giving it an objective value. Paper money, on the other hand, represents the value assigned to it by a central banking system. It can then be exchanged as well, just like gold. A well-run banking system can make money act like a limited, desired resource, but it cannot do so forever. Eventually, it will make promises that won't be kept.

farfromglorified

RainDog wrote:

Is there really enough gold in the world to start stamping out coins for everyone?

Hehe...not really. If you wanted to give gold to everyone in the world, you'd probably give out about 2 ounces to each man, woman and child.

RainDog

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...not really. If you wanted to give gold to everyone in the world, you'd probably give out about 2 ounces to each man, woman and child.

Sucks for the guy with a hole in his pocket, huh?

"Honey, I have some bad news. Our entire economic worth just went down the drain."

"What!?! I didn't hear anything. Was there a crash? Some kind of......"

"No. No. I mean literally. I was walking down the street, I tripped, and the whole thing just rolled down the storm drain."

farfromglorified

RainDog wrote:

Sucks for the guy with a hole in his pocket, huh?

"Honey, I have some bad news. Our entire economic worth just went down the drain."

"What!?! I didn't hear anything. Was there a crash? Some kind of......"

"No. No. I mean literally. I was walking down the street, I tripped, and the whole thing just rolled down the storm drain."

Yeah, that would suck. It could be worse though. If you used platinum, I don't think you'd even get 1 ounce.

HANKTHELANK

Abuskedti wrote:

The paper is not traded because of its value. Thats like saying a contract has no value simply because its on paper. The paper represents an exchange of items of value. Your proposal to add some of earths natural reasourses into the transation can do nothing to help - which is why it is no longer used.

Can I suggest a book on the subject......read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" And of course research his statements.

Ahnimus

And this is why I argue that Andrew Jackson may have been the best President in U.S. history. Many people do not know this but he actually fought the bankers and temporarily drove them out, establishing "Greenbacks" as a federally controlled, full-reserve, currency.

There is a bit of his story here, but I'm sure if your interested you will find more.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo30.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_jackson#Opposition_to_the_National_Bank

Then again, he was a proponent of the war of 1812 and the invasion of southern Canada. I understand that was for American Soveriengty though. Still shoulda stayed out.

An interesting corralation if you look at the presidents that didn't like the banking system, they all had assassination attempts on their lives, starting with Andrew Jackson as the first presidential assassination attempt in U.S. history.

Let's take a look

Andrew Jackson - Drove the bankers out and established the Greenbacks
Abraham Lincoln - Antiwar Activist, spoke out against bankers
William McKinley - Established the Gold Standard Act, making Gold the only standard for money.
John F. Kennedy - Antiwar Activist, spoke out against bankers
James Garfield - Spoke against bankers

Abuskedti

I think it is silly to consider the banking system our enemy. We live great in this country - healthier - far better working conditions - more time off - we have great individual wealth - food homes..

The problem is with the law makers..

The banking system works wonderfully... Our system of currency has been carrying us for hundreds of years - with very little problems.

The poverty we suffer is because we are afraid of government.. a little creative governing and we could end poverty in the entire world... in no small part due to the outstanding monetary systems that has facilitate worldwide trade.

Ahnimus

Here is a great full length documentary on the history of the Monetary system, including the story of Andrew Jackson. I've gone through many of the claims in this video and validated them, so I recommend it.

The Money Masters Part 1 of 2
The Money Masters Part 2 of 2

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=monetary+duration%3Along

he still stands

Lack of money is the root of all evil. (including this thread)

Ahnimus

And I know many of you disagree, but this control of the monetary system had a lot to do with the Nazi movement and Hitler's goals.

It's evident in the proganada they released
http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=nazi+propaganda

Abookamongstthemany

Abuskedti wrote:

I think it is silly to consider the banking system our enemy. We live great in this country - healthier - far better working conditions - more time off - we have great individual wealth - food homes..

The problem is with the law makers..

The banking system works wonderfully... Our system of currency has been carrying us for hundreds of years - with very little problems.

The poverty we suffer is because we are afraid of government.. a little creative governing and we could end poverty in the entire world... in no small part due to the outstanding monetary systems that has facilitate worldwide trade.

the problem is...this can't last forever and when the bubble bursts there's gonna be slight problems.

Ahnimus

he still stands wrote:

Lack of money is the root of all evil. (including this thread)

If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. (Exodus, 22:24 [6])

And if thy brother be waxen poor, and his means fail with thee; then thou shalt uphold him: as a stranger and a settler shall he live with thee. Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase. (Leviticus, 25:35-37)

Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest. Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. (Deuteronomy, 23:19-20)

Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying: 'Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD; and the creditor is come to take unto him my two children to be bondmen.' (Kings 4:1)

Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have not lent, neither have men lent to me; yet every one of them doth curse me. (Jeremiah 15:10)

he that hath not given forth upon interest, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true justice between man and man, hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept Mine ordinances, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. ... [And he that] hath given forth upon interest, and hath taken increase; shall he then live? he shall not live--he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely be put to death, his blood shall be upon him. ... [And he] that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. (Ezekiel 18:8-9, 13, 17)

In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken interest and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by oppression, and hast forgotten Me, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

Then I consulted with myself, and contended with the nobles and the rulers, and said unto them: 'Ye lend upon pledge, every one to his brother.' And I held a great assembly against them. ... And I likewise, my brethren and my servants, have lent them money and corn. I pray you, let us leave off this exaction. (Nehemiah 5:7, 10)

He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7)

He that augmenteth his substance by interest and increase, gathereth it for him that is gracious to the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)

he still stands

Ahnimus wrote:

If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. (Exodus, 22:24 [6])

And if thy brother be waxen poor, and his means fail with thee; then thou shalt uphold him: as a stranger and a settler shall he live with thee. Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase. (Leviticus, 25:35-37)

Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest. Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. (Deuteronomy, 23:19-20)

Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying: 'Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD; and the creditor is come to take unto him my two children to be bondmen.' (Kings 4:1)

Woe is me, my mother, that thou hast borne me a man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have not lent, neither have men lent to me; yet every one of them doth curse me. (Jeremiah 15:10)

he that hath not given forth upon interest, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true justice between man and man, hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept Mine ordinances, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. ... [And he that] hath given forth upon interest, and hath taken increase; shall he then live? he shall not live--he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely be put to death, his blood shall be upon him. ... [And he] that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. (Ezekiel 18:8-9, 13, 17)

In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken interest and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by oppression, and hast forgotten Me, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)

Then I consulted with myself, and contended with the nobles and the rulers, and said unto them: 'Ye lend upon pledge, every one to his brother.' And I held a great assembly against them. ... And I likewise, my brethren and my servants, have lent them money and corn. I pray you, let us leave off this exaction. (Nehemiah 5:7, 10)

He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7)

He that augmenteth his substance by interest and increase, gathereth it for him that is gracious to the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)

you win

Ahnimus

he still stands wrote:

Lack of money is the root of all evil. (including this thread)

In the Parable of the Talents, Jesus tells the story of the servant who did not increase the talents given him by his master:

"His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received my own with usury.'"(Matthew 25:27)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus emphasizes lending without concern for a return - or even repayment:

If ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest, for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)

Ahnimus

he still stands wrote:

Lack of money is the root of all evil. (including this thread)

The following quotations are from the Qur'an:

Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Al-Baqarah 2:275)

God condemns usury, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of usury, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Al-Baqarah 2:276-280)

O you who believe, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Al-'Imran 3:130)

And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Al-Nisa 4:161)

The usury that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Ar-Rum 30:39)

he still stands

Ahnimus wrote:

In the Parable of the Talents, Jesus tells the story of the servant who did not increase the talents given him by his master:

"His lord answered and said unto him, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received my own with usury.'"(Matthew 25:27)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus emphasizes lending without concern for a return - or even repayment:

If ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest, for he is kind to the unthankful, and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)

I was quoting someone more credible; George Bernard Shaw

Ahnimus

he still stands wrote:

you win

Cool