Money as Debt

24

Comments

  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    baraka wrote:
    I dunno.....I am by no means an expert on this at all, and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I do not understand some of the 'moves made by the feds. I've never been able to grasp the logic behind some of the decisions. Maybe someone can shed some light on this cryptic process.

    What do you mean? Which "moves"?
    Hey! I'm like a fine wine.................

    Hehe...I didn't mean that as an insult to any women. But let's be honest. An economic system of exchange based on females would be a sex trade. And it's tough to exchange a 60 year old woman in a sex economy.

    I may be completely making this up, but I believe there was an indigenous South American tribe somewhere that was run by women and basically used men as a primary form of exchange. That was effectively a labor/sex trade, and suffered from similar problems.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    farfromglorified wrote:
    That's a terrible idea. First, oil doesn't have value to many. Secondly, oil has no long-term value, since its value only arises from its use. Third, you're consuming it, which means you're going to have less and less of it over time.



    Right, paper money is not a commodity, at least not in the sense you mean. But the only reason paper money works is because it's treated as such. In places like Venezuela now or Argentina 20 years ago or America 70 years ago, that perception collapsed and the paper money became the commodity that it truly is -- paper.



    Absolutely correct. Your good and services are not a commodity, however, so they become difficult to exchange as such. Feel free to get rid of the paper and go back to barter.



    Diamonds are not valued by all cultures, and they'd be very difficult to turn into currency. That said, it would work in theory. Women don't work because they're not really limited, and they lose value over time, but they can and have served as a currency in a very primitive economy. Ammo suffers from the same problem as oil -- it's primary consumable and it doesn't really have much inherent value.

    Silly. I have no use for gold or silver. We do have a barter system. The video claims that when someone signs the debt - we have "created money". What has taken place is a promise to work at a level defined by its relative value for a pre determined time. That certainly has value. One person promises to flip burgers and pay their debt - another promises to represent one side in divorce court. That is a real value trade of services. We do have a barter system.. and a pretty effective one. I don't see why you would want some arbitrary link to gold.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Silly. I have no use for gold or silver. We do have a barter system. The video claims that when someone signs the debt - we have "created money". What has taken place is a promise to work at a level defined by its relative value for a pre determined time. That certainly has value. One person promises to flip burgers and pay their debt - another promises to represent one side in divorce court. That is a real value trade of services. We do have a barter system.. and a pretty effective one. I don't see why you would want some arbitrary link to gold.
    I think one of the keys to the failure of this system is that "if there is no debt there is no money." The way I see it these bankers value your signature on a loan over any particular value you may possess, and are in the business of creating debt in order to keep their own interests afloat.
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  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Silly. I have no use for gold or silver.

    Of course you do, unless you can fulfill all your needs for your own. Since you likely can't, you have to exchange others for goods and services. And since gold and silver are the most likely things you'd be able to exchange with a random provider, you definitely have a use for it.
    We do have a barter system. The video claims that when someone signs the debt - we have "created money". What has taken place is a promise to work at a level defined by its relative value for a pre determined time. That certainly has value. One person promises to flip burgers and pay their debt - another promises to represent one side in divorce court. That is a real value trade of services. We do have a barter system.. and a pretty effective one.

    You're confusing the exchange of goods and services and the universal exchange required for an economy of modern scale. Absent money, the barter system can never extend beyond rudimentary services and goods. You can't loan labor the way you can loan money. You can't invest labor in the same way you can invest money.

    The video is entirely correct -- money is "created" by labor. There's a reason that we say "make money" in reference to our labor. And you're entirely correct when you say that the money acquires its value from the trade of services. What you're ignoring is that, without money, you'd have nothing of universal value to exchange with people who have no direct use for your labor.
    I don't see why you would want some arbitrary link to gold.

    Because gold maximizes your ability for universal exchange. Furthermore, gold maintains its value better than pretty much anything else. The closer you get to gold, the further you get away from the biggest danger in any economy -- inflation.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Of course you do, unless you can fulfill all your needs for your own. Since you likely can't, you have to exchange others for goods and services. And since gold and silver are the most likely things you'd be able to exchange with a random provider, you definitely have a use for it.



    You're confusing the exchange of goods and services and the universal exchange required for an economy of modern scale. Absent money, the barter system can never extend beyond rudimentary services and goods. You can't loan labor the way you can loan money. You can't invest labor in the same way you can invest money.

    The video is entirely correct -- money is "created" by labor. There's a reason that we say "make money" in reference to our labor. And you're entirely correct when you say that the money acquires its value from the trade of services. What you're ignoring is that, without money, you'd have nothing of universal value to exchange with people who have no direct use for your labor.



    Because gold maximizes your ability for universal exchange. Furthermore, gold maintains its value better than pretty much anything else. The closer you get to gold, the further you get away from the biggest danger in any economy -- inflation.

    Gold maximizes nothing. Money is a record .. nothing more.. it represents the currently accepted value of goods and services. You can switch the gold for the money and it will do the exact same thing, but it is much heavier.

    Right now gold is of no use to me. money does. If you switched it around, then the opposite will be true.

    Money.. is merely a record.. no value other that that for which it was traded.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Meh...she can say it better than I can anyway:

    http://jim.com/money.htm
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abuskedti wrote:
    Gold maximizes nothing. Money is a record .. nothing more.. it represents the currently accepted value of goods and services. You can switch the gold for the money and it will do the exact same thing, but it is much heavier.

    You don't understand. Paper money has no intrinsic value. Gold does. The value of gold, absent a government, is maintained. The value of money, absent a government, disappears. A fiat and a limited resource are not the same thing.
    Right now gold is of no use to me. money does. If you switched it around, then the opposite will be true.

    Hehe...so if I handed you a bar of gold, you'd just toss it in the trash???
    Money.. is merely a record.. no value other that that for which it was traded.

    Yes. But gold has a value on its own. Furthermore, that trade is likely only possible with a medium of exchange, be it gold or money, since the person you're trading with probably doesn't need your labor or you don't need his.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Liberals arguing for an end of central banking and fiat currency??? Holy shit, somebody get the devil a coat.....

    ;)

    No need for labels, at least for not me anyways. ;) If I see something that concerns me then I wanna share it and discuss it. That's more important than staying loyal to a team that can often be wrong. I am mine. :)
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    No need for labels, at least for not me anyways. ;) If I see something that concerns me then I wanna share it and discuss it. That's more important than staying loyal to a team that can often be wrong. I am mine. :)

    Hehe...I was just kidding. Thanks for posting this -- it's great.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Yes. But gold has a value on its own. Furthermore, that trade is likely only possible with a medium of exchange, be it gold or money, since the person you're trading with probably doesn't need your labor or you don't need his.

    I'm sure I'm over my head wading into this, but everything has a value on it's own. Gold is simply one item you can barter just like anything else in my opinion. I don't care about Gold one bit...outside of the fact that it might be of value in trade to someone else.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    know1 wrote:
    I'm sure I'm over my head wading into this, but everything has a value on it's own. Gold is simply one item you can barter just like anything else in my opinion. I don't care about Gold one bit...outside of the fact that it might be of value in trade to someone else.

    Absolutley! Everything does have a value. And you might not care one bit about gold, but the 'outside' condition you mention above is where its power lies. Good luck trading shells or rocks or paper or anything else of limited or eroding value over the long term. Before you know it you'll trade an island for a string of beads.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Absolutley! Everything does have a value. And you might not care one bit about gold, but the 'outside' condition you mention above is where its power lies. Good luck trading shells or rocks or paper or anything else of limited or eroding value over the long term. Before you know it you'll trade an island for a string of beads.

    I'm not sure I think gold's value is immune from being limited or eroding. Doesn't it's value change all the time? Therefore, it's really no different from anything else.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    know1 wrote:
    I'm not sure I think gold's value is immune from being limited or eroding. Doesn't it's value change all the time? Therefore, it's really no different from anything else.

    The value of gold certainly changes, but it is a) based on a consistent limited supply and b) always in demand. Furthermore, it is exceptionally durable. Therefore, it never loses its value in the long term. You can't say that about paper currency. Paper currency has a nearly unlimited supply and is only in demand so long as confidence exists in its exchange potential.
  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    farfromglorified wrote:
    The value of gold certainly changes, but it is a) based on a consistent limited supply and b) always in demand. Furthermore, it is exceptionally durable. Therefore, it never loses its value in the long term. You can't say that about paper currency. Paper currency has a nearly unlimited supply and is only in demand so long as confidence exists in its exchange potential.

    There's no guarantee that gold will always be in demand. I agree with you about paper money, though.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    farfromglorified wrote:
    The value of gold certainly changes, but it is a) based on a consistent limited supply and b) always in demand. Furthermore, it is exceptionally durable. Therefore, it never loses its value in the long term. You can't say that about paper currency. Paper currency has a nearly unlimited supply and is only in demand so long as confidence exists in its exchange potential.

    The paper is not traded because of its value. Thats like saying a contract has no value simply because its on paper. The paper represents an exchange of items of value. Your proposal to add some of earths natural reasourses into the transation can do nothing to help - which is why it is no longer used.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    farfromglorified wrote:
    The value of gold certainly changes, but it is a) based on a consistent limited supply and b) always in demand. Furthermore, it is exceptionally durable. Therefore, it never loses its value in the long term. You can't say that about paper currency. Paper currency has a nearly unlimited supply and is only in demand so long as confidence exists in its exchange potential.

    You are thinking about money in the wrong way. A dollar is not something of value to trade. It is more a share of the total of all American goods and services. You one one share of the stock. The number of total shares is not constant because the amount of services and good is not constant. With groing population - there are more people capable of doing work - and with new technologies - we have more efficent production....

    Your dollar is not something you can take to the moon and trade with the visiting aliens. for that maybe you should bring gold. But in America we operate on a system of ownership that facilitates easy trade - bringing together the products and services with those in need of those products or services.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abuskedti wrote:
    The paper is not traded because of its value. Thats like saying a contract has no value simply because its on paper. The paper represents an exchange of items of value. Your proposal to add some of earths natural reasourses into the transation can do nothing to help - which is why it is no longer used.

    Sigh...

    Paper is traded because of its perceived value. If you work for me today and I give you a sheet of construction paper in exchange for it tomorrow, you cannot exchange that construction paper with the grocery store down the street just because you say that construction paper represents your labor.

    Paper is also a natural resource. It is not a limited one. It is also not a durable one, nor is it highly valued universally.

    The reason gold is no longer used as a standard is because it's tough to wage modern war or support the modern socialist state on gold. Furthermore, it's also impossible to run a zero-risk bank on it. The gold standard wasn't abandoned because it can do "nothing to help". It was abandoned because it didn't serve the interests of politicians and corrupt bankers and because of the miscalculations of beauracrats who believed their paper could ever hold the value of gold.
  • Abuskedti
    Abuskedti Posts: 1,917
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Sigh...

    Paper is traded because of its perceived value. If you work for me today and I give you a sheet of construction paper in exchange for it tomorrow, you cannot exchange that construction paper with the grocery store down the street just because you say that construction paper represents your labor.

    Paper is also a natural resource. It is not a limited one. It is also not a durable one, nor is it highly valued universally.

    The reason gold is no longer used as a standard is because it's tough to wage modern war or support the modern socialist state on gold. Furthermore, it's also impossible to run a zero-risk bank on it. The gold standard wasn't abandoned because it can do "nothing to help". It was abandoned because it didn't serve the interests of politicians and corrupt bankers and because of the miscalculations of beauracrats who believed their paper could ever hold the value of gold.


    No matter how many times you type that - it is not true. Money is not traded because of its perceived value. It represents goods and services provided or promised by others.. recorded by the central bank. It represents something of value - it has not value in itself anymore than a love letter. And people generally understand that.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abuskedti wrote:
    You are thinking about money in the wrong way. A dollar is not something of value to trade. It is more a share of the total of all American goods and services. You one one share of the stock. The number of total shares is not constant because the amount of services and good is not constant. With groing population - there are more people capable of doing work - and with new technologies - we have more efficent production....

    Umm...that's exactly how I'm thinking about paper money. Except you're forgetting it's still paper. Paper can be produced over and over again, regardless of actual labor. Paper cannot be a true "share of the total of all American goods and services" when you can simply print so much of it that those goods and services become rewardless.
    Your dollar is not something you can take to the moon and trade with the visiting aliens. for that maybe you should bring gold. But in America we operate on a system of ownership that facilitates easy trade - bringing together the products and services with those in need of those products or services.

    Hehe...yes, that is how we operate in America. Gold doesn't change anything in the above. It makes it more of a fact. It allows you to exchange real value for value, rather than paper-potentially-backed-by-value for value.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abuskedti wrote:
    No matter how many times you type that - it is not true. Money is not traded because of its perceived value. It represents goods and services provided or promised by others.. recorded by the central bank. It represents something of value - it has not value in itself anymore than a love letter. And people generally understand that.

    "Money is not traded because of its perceived value"

    "It represents something of value"

    Dude, this is a total contradiction.

    The perceived value of money comes from the fact that it represents something of value. The true value of money comes from how accurate that representation is. If the money is backed by gold (or better yet is gold), the represented value remains true. If it is only backed by promises, its value is only as good as the delivery on those promises.

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