Money as Debt
Abookamongstthemany
Posts: 8,209
This really needs to be watched by everyone. Wow!!
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-9050474362583451279&hl=en
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-9050474362583451279&hl=en
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji_G0MqAqq8
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
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Thanks, gue. He had a lot to say on the matter...very interesting.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
can you post the transcript? maybe even go out on a limb and give your take? but i'll settle for the former, while not expecting the latter...don't have the time to sit through u tubes. post the words my friend
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
This is incredibly educational.
We need to bring ruination to the banks. Or, that is to say, ruin to the fractional banking reserve system.
Thanks Abook.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years........It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller in address to Trilateral Commission 1991
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning". - Henry Ford
"I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
“If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency… the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property, until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” - Andrew Jackson
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. The banking powers are more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. They denounce as public enemies all who question their methods or throw light upon their crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow. The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." - Abraham Lincoln
"Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce...and when you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate." - James Garfield
"A great industrial Nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the Nation and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world - no longer a Government of free opinion no longer a Government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men". (Just before he died, Wilson is reported to have stated to friends that he had been "deceived" and that "I have betrayed my Country".
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world, no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."
- Woodrow Wilson who passed the Federal Reserve Act
"We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent." - Paul Warburg, Council on Foreign Relations and Architect of the Federal Reserve System: Feb 17, 1950 in an address to the U.S. Senate.
"Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most conspicuous and sacred responsibility, all talk of sovereignty of Parliament and of democracy is idle and futile... Once a nation parts with control of its credit, it matters not who makes the nation's laws... Usury once in control will wreck any nation. " - William Lyon Mackenzie King
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin... Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with a flick of the pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again... Take this great power away from them and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in... But, if you want to be the slaves of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let bankers continue to create money and control credit." -Sir Josiah Stamp (Governor of the Bank of England in the 1920s)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Go out on a limb and give my take, eh? It's about the fractional banking system creating money out of thin air with no value except for a promise to repay. It really goes indepth about the consequences and inability to sustain such a system. The piece is pretty self explanatory and I posted it to share with those who may be interested. It's 45 min long though and there is no way I'm posting the whole transcript.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
It implies that the money is not backed by anything.. It skims over the fact that the car is used as collateral. Each time "new" money is "created" there is a commodity backing it... and there are people (the borroweers) exchanging their service (whatever they do for a living) to pay down the loans.
though there is not gold backing the money - there are individuals providing service to back the money - along with the collateral.
They shouldn't gloss that over.
Everyone - right now - take all of your money out of the stock market - your entire portfolio - including 401K.. convert to cash or government bonds. Tell you family and friends to do the same. If we can spread the word to a few hundred thousand people - we will effectivly remove money from everyone elsees pocket and put it into ours.
because if we do this, the Market will crash.... It will take a few days to spread the word - and get the transactions completed...
Then in two weeks, on precicely March 15... Everyone put your money back into the Market....
Those who didn't remove their money will lose money due to the crash... then when we all get back in - we all earn it back as the market recovers..
Ok Now go do it!
If someone didn't sell they didn't lose. They're still in it for the trip back up. You only lose (or gain) when you sell.
Also, individual investors are generally not first movers in the market. They usually follow along a day or two too late. The moment the institutional investors caught wind of any real movement, they'd dump, and the people following your plan would lose their shorts.
I couldn't get your video to play. :( But I was able to watch the Ron Paul vid that gue posted. Very thought provoking.
Ha ha. I know it was only a matter of time before you turned up in this thread
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I watched the Ron Paul vid when que_barium posted it elsewhere. And I absolutely agree with him -- fiat currency blows, so to speak. It's great for wars and welfare, but it sucks for long-term economic stability and basic morality.
Arguing against a federal reserve is a complex business. I'd very much prefer a gold standard, if that's what you're asking. However, I'd prefer over that no standard -- meaning gold and silver currency. I don't believe the federal government should be in the business of holding a monopoly on money.
Now, that said, the American currency system is probably the most successful centrally planned currency system in history. Perhaps the British might take issue with that, and I wouldn't know enough about British monetary history to really debate them. Regardless, the American dollar acts as close to real money as any other currency in the world or in world history, at least on such a large scale. But there is no escaping the inflationary pressures and long-term disasters that come with fiat money, even when it's relatively well-run fiat money.
thats why we have to do it quick...
A gold or silver standard unnecessarily complicates the issue. Gold an Silver have to real value either...
Money is not a commodity - merely an administrative record of trades. The central bank is merely the record keeper - which is very much needed with billions off people making deals.
Hehe...really? Gold and silver are about the only two thing you can take to any inhabitable place on the planet, drop on the ground, and watch people slaughter each other over it. The only other thing I can think of that comes close to qualifying are American dollars.
Money must be a commodity. If money weren't a commodity, your economic system would collapse because it wouldn't hold value as a universal exchange. The entire goal of paper money is to pretend as best as possible that paper currency is a commodity.
Lets use oil then..
actually nothing you say here is true.
If you have to pretend it is a commodity - then clearly it is not. It is merely paper that represent the value of your goods or your service.
Gold and silver are the only things? what about diamonds.. or women... or ammo
That's a terrible idea. First, oil doesn't have value to many. Secondly, oil has no long-term value, since its value only arises from its use. Third, you're consuming it, which means you're going to have less and less of it over time.
Right, paper money is not a commodity, at least not in the sense you mean. But the only reason paper money works is because it's treated as such. In places like Venezuela now or Argentina 20 years ago or America 70 years ago, that perception collapsed and the paper money became the commodity that it truly is -- paper.
Absolutely correct. Your good and services are not a commodity, however, so they become difficult to exchange as such. Feel free to get rid of the paper and go back to barter.
Diamonds are not valued by all cultures, and they'd be very difficult to turn into currency. That said, it would work in theory. Women don't work because they're not really limited, and they lose value over time, but they can and have served as a currency in a very primitive economy. Ammo suffers from the same problem as oil -- it's primary consumable and it doesn't really have much inherent value.
Hey! I'm like a fine wine.................
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
What do you mean? Which "moves"?
Hehe...I didn't mean that as an insult to any women. But let's be honest. An economic system of exchange based on females would be a sex trade. And it's tough to exchange a 60 year old woman in a sex economy.
I may be completely making this up, but I believe there was an indigenous South American tribe somewhere that was run by women and basically used men as a primary form of exchange. That was effectively a labor/sex trade, and suffered from similar problems.
Silly. I have no use for gold or silver. We do have a barter system. The video claims that when someone signs the debt - we have "created money". What has taken place is a promise to work at a level defined by its relative value for a pre determined time. That certainly has value. One person promises to flip burgers and pay their debt - another promises to represent one side in divorce court. That is a real value trade of services. We do have a barter system.. and a pretty effective one. I don't see why you would want some arbitrary link to gold.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Of course you do, unless you can fulfill all your needs for your own. Since you likely can't, you have to exchange others for goods and services. And since gold and silver are the most likely things you'd be able to exchange with a random provider, you definitely have a use for it.
You're confusing the exchange of goods and services and the universal exchange required for an economy of modern scale. Absent money, the barter system can never extend beyond rudimentary services and goods. You can't loan labor the way you can loan money. You can't invest labor in the same way you can invest money.
The video is entirely correct -- money is "created" by labor. There's a reason that we say "make money" in reference to our labor. And you're entirely correct when you say that the money acquires its value from the trade of services. What you're ignoring is that, without money, you'd have nothing of universal value to exchange with people who have no direct use for your labor.
Because gold maximizes your ability for universal exchange. Furthermore, gold maintains its value better than pretty much anything else. The closer you get to gold, the further you get away from the biggest danger in any economy -- inflation.
http://jim.com/money.htm
Gold maximizes nothing. Money is a record .. nothing more.. it represents the currently accepted value of goods and services. You can switch the gold for the money and it will do the exact same thing, but it is much heavier.
Right now gold is of no use to me. money does. If you switched it around, then the opposite will be true.
Money.. is merely a record.. no value other that that for which it was traded.
You don't understand. Paper money has no intrinsic value. Gold does. The value of gold, absent a government, is maintained. The value of money, absent a government, disappears. A fiat and a limited resource are not the same thing.
Hehe...so if I handed you a bar of gold, you'd just toss it in the trash???
Yes. But gold has a value on its own. Furthermore, that trade is likely only possible with a medium of exchange, be it gold or money, since the person you're trading with probably doesn't need your labor or you don't need his.
No need for labels, at least for not me anyways.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Hehe...I was just kidding. Thanks for posting this -- it's great.
I'm sure I'm over my head wading into this, but everything has a value on it's own. Gold is simply one item you can barter just like anything else in my opinion. I don't care about Gold one bit...outside of the fact that it might be of value in trade to someone else.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.