I was an honors student but it's always fun to make these assumptions, eh?
even in an authoritative, oppressive environment.,...you managed to excel, and becoming the free-thinking individual you are today. who would've thunk that? i happen to personally know a GREAT # of people who managed to accomplish the very same thing.....so much for all the 'mindless drones'...
btw - i did read the link from the teacher you provided, a VERY good read...but also quite focused ONLY on the negatives, and there is so much more to it than that. obviously, as an award-winning and dedicated teacher...even in such confines...he too managed to excel as an educator...which thus i can only imagine helped his students to excel as well.
another thought - we human 'animals' are highly socialized creatures, like many other species. our closest relations, gorilla/chimpanzees....etc....all have evolved social dynamics of being members of the group, and almost all are an authoritative model. sure, there are group/sharing actitivites, but there is ultimately almost always an ever-present 'pecking order' for lack of a better term. down the line, animals such as dogs, also highly socialized pack animals, they too have alpha males/females...and absolutely defer to the authority. it is very common, and authority in and of itself, not a bad thing. ABUSE of authority, terrible...but an environment based on an authoritative model does not equate a bad learning environment in the least.
in todays day and age, students are required to learn and know MORE than ever, and learn all this in a 6.5 hour day, in 181 days in a school year. without 'structure' of classes, it does seem a rather unique challenge to fit it all in otherwise. as someone else mentioned and i fully agree..as student's age, the free-thinking grows with their maturity, but even at the highest levels of learning, in group environments, there is always structure of some form, results-based testing or activity to prove learning. in a group environment there is always going to have to be some model and authority...and sure, some degree of checking for knowledge. the concept of formalized group learning for ALL citizens is really not that 'old' a practice in human history...and certainly not to the degree of specialization and breadth of subjects covered as today, so it is always a work in progress...
one last thought for now, it also is interesting to me to read
no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat
b/c most of what i read in criticism about the schools systems of today was critical from an individual level, NOT the greater community. it seems most arguements for the 'mindless drones' or not encouraging 'self' is actually amore intyernalized, individual view....which of course EVERY student's needs have to be adressed.....but also, this is a PUBLIC, group learning environment...no getting around that...so the focus ALSO needs to be of the GREATER need of the overall GROUP...to reach as MANY students as possible, which does in fact lead to at least some authoritative/respect model for learning, so ALL students may get attention and focus for learning. certainly seems a community-based idea to me...the greater good of a learned/educated citizenry, a fairly 'new' concept in humanity, b/c education not all that long ago was for a priveliged few...and now, for all the masses...does seem to me at least, trying for the BALANCE between individual AND community needs, for the good of ALL, as best can be accomplished...
even in an authoritative, oppressive environment.,...you managed to excel, and becoming the free-thinking individual you are today. who would've thunk that? i happen to personally know a GREAT # of people who managed to accomplish the very same thing.....so much for all the 'mindless drones'...
I spent my time in school being bored outta my mind and daydreaming. I became what I am today because of key people in my life and the home environment I grew up in.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Personal responsibilty is the idea I'm grasping. The notion that a person should be responsible for themselves instead of having way too much authority act responsible for you.
Did you read the link I posted a few pages back? It explains the problems I see within the school system quite well and is written by an awarding winning teacher no less. It doesn't have anything to do with pissing off the teachers and inability to do school work. It is about principle and being able to build independency. If you disgree then fine but drop this over the top, angry guy shit you pull in every post.
I read this link. I'm sure there are "award winning" teachers that disagree. I apologize for my "angry" posts, but I cannot help it. Threads like this baffle me. I seriously believe that people need to be responsible for themselves and not blame others. I generally do not like writing a needlessly long post. I'm just going to come out and say what I think. You see it as anger, but I don't see the need to write some longwinded response when I could just write a couple sentences and get to the point. I don't think calling someone an "idiot" is lazy, I think it is just a quicker way of saying "your ideas are wrong." Anyway, for you I will make a serios rebuttle to the link that hopefully isn't in an angry tone, but if it is, it is because I am honestly angry that people actually spend the time thinking up these things.
Seriously, one of this teacher's examples was granting hall passes. HALL PASSES! Hall passes are not about authority, it is about keeping kids from going for a smoke or vandelizing school property. And 300 seconds of time to get from class to class. The school day can't last for 11 hours. These are not issues meant to keep creativity down, but to just keep the day going. Homework was another item that I found an issue with. First, the complaint is that nothing is accomplished in the classes because they end too soon. Guess what, learning is not supposed to end in the classroom! Homework is assigned for the student to finish the learning at home, but this apparently is also frowned upon. You can't have it both ways. Again, homework and personal responsibity go hand in hand. Classrooms are to get you thinking, and the homework helps you apply what you've discussed. Homework also helps you to figure things out that weren't discussed in class. If you don't have the discipline to complete the learning, that is your fault. There's some stat out there that you retain the most information when you write something down, and not when you only hear it or speak it. The classroom is where you get the ideas, and the homework helps you to learn and retain it by writing it out. Also, with all the ADD out there, you expect a classroom of 20-30 kids to focus for more than 50 minutes?
If you want to change the education system in our country, you gotta change the family. Pure and simple. Nothing else will work. More money will not teach kids in the ghetto. They are not going to say, "I've got a computer, I will now focus on learning." A kid in the suburbs who comes home to an empty house and plays video games for 3 hours and then stays up until 11 or 12 because the parents don't care will also have a hard time focusing in school. What will make them focus on learning is a parent or strong role model who takes an active role in that child's life and encourages them in the right direction.
I spent my time in school being bored outta my mind and daydreaming. I became what I am today because of key people in my life and the home environment I grew up in.
so perhaps you would've benefitted from a gifted program, which most school systems do have in place..from home schooling, or alternative school. as i said, there is no one right *fit* for EVERY student...the public school system is designed to offer an education for ALL, for the greater community, which is made up of individuals...but overall, must cater to the needs of the 'average' student, while also trying to accommodate both the gifted and the challenged students......so yea, it's all balance as best can be done. it's not a perfect system, and never will be.
as i said i think in my first post - well hinted towards anyway, the 'ideal' would be for EVERY student to have their own individualized curriculum tailor-made for their learning and developmental style...and then socialization in the larger community. however, in a large-scale learning environment we simply do not have the means for such, so yes....it is developed to cater to the larger group of learners as best to accomodate all learners and styles. not ideal.....but does offer the community of learning for all.
btw - you also showed a KEY elements of your success: key people in your life and your home environment...it IS a triology to your success as a free-thinking, intelligent individual....not just the responsibility of the school environment. perhaps you were not as 'challenged' as you might've been, but i am sure you still 'learned' a great deal, got the necessary tools for thinking/learning on your own...coupled with those key people and home environment, a recipe for your personal success. it ALL is pivotal in the learning process.
I spent my time in school being bored outta my mind and daydreaming. I became what I am today because of key people in my life and the home environment I grew up in.
I did not read this post before I wrote the last paragraph in my previous post. Maybe we might agree on one thing at least.
And who wasn't bored in school? Everyone was. But you still were able to get enough out of it to make something of yourself.
dude what are you talking about? "overall we don't care about our neighbor" you must live in a shitty community.
no, i guess i'd say i live in a pretty good one...the local elementary school offers free breakfast and lunch during the summer a few days out of the week, there's lots of nice parks...maybe you missed the first word you quoted above from me, 'overall'...overall is far from each and every single person's case....in the overall picture the way our way of life is geared is not towards helping one another
and one more thing competition and coexistance are not mutually exclusive.
never said they were, but i still stand behind what i said. for just one example the way pharmacuetical companies will keep things like aids drugs from being made 'genericaly' which means many ppl, especially in poorer countries, can not afford them. or the way so much food is just thrown away, not only by many individuals but just the fast-food and other restaurants, grocery stores, bakeries....throw away while so many have nothing to eat...
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I dont think authority and set curriculums in schools are such a bad thing. I agree with a lot of what d2d has put forth. Schooling is about learning, and since one must be able to crawl before one can walk, one must accept "standard" learning at face value for starters, to be able to question them and use them as a starting point later on.
Hell, even my university schooling were built like that. In the starting subjects in sociology, we were given all these theories to learn and accept at least for argument's sakes. We wouldn't do anything much with them, but we were required to learn them to be able to answer questions about them. Now, when I progressed to the master's level I could utilize this knowledge, see how the various theories came to be and why and what they were trying to explain and on what premises. I could then start to think critically and creatively about these things, that I had to just learn at the start. It's about progression in learning and thinking.
Now this is no blanket support for authority and standardized learning. However, like d2d I think that some respect for authority and the "playing rules" must be adhered to in a group learning environment in order for it to function at all. Furthermore, in order to think critically about various subjects, you must first learn what the subject is. Dont teach kids (or anyone really) postmodern deconstructivism before they even know the construct or what is being deconstructed. To be able to be critical towards the theories of Marx, you must first know what the theories are, and so on. So a starting point in standard learning packages are not so bad, especially if everyone understands it is just a starting point, and that further learning may alter what one now thinks of as certain and not needing explanation.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Could you provide some examples, because I never once felt like I had to sacrifice anything for the system. I cannot even think of a situation where I would have been expected to.
The average person is known to sacrifice themselves and their integrity for others all the time, and to expect the same back, at this point in time, psychologically speaking. The average person is not individuated, according to psychology. This means that the majority of humans are psychologically crippled/imbalanced. And as a society we pay the price all the time.
I'm not providing examples, because I'm not willing to debate the details.
For example, the idea that a child is a "brat", or a willingness to skip healthy channels and to call someone an "idiot" cannot be justified. If these basics are not understood, there is little point to talk about the details, for me.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I dont think authority and set curriculums in schools are such a bad thing. I agree with a lot of what d2d has put forth. Schooling is about learning, and since one must be able to crawl before one can walk, one must accept "standard" learning at face value for starters, to be able to question them and use them as a starting point later on.
Hell, even my university schooling were built like that. In the starting subjects in sociology, we were given all these theories to learn and accept at least for argument's sakes. We wouldn't do anything much with them, but we were required to learn them to be able to answer questions about them. Now, when I progressed to the master's level I could utilize this knowledge, see how the various theories came to be and why and what they were trying to explain and on what premises. I could then start to think critically and creatively about these things, that I had to just learn at the start. It's about progression in learning and thinking.
Now this is no blanket support for authority and standardized learning. However, like d2d I think that some respect for authority and the "playing rules" must be adhered to in a group learning environment in order for it to function at all. Furthermore, in order to think critically about various subjects, you must first learn what the subject is. Dont teach kids (or anyone really) postmodern deconstructivism before they even know the construct or what is being deconstructed. To be able to be critical towards the theories of Marx, you must first know what the theories are, and so on. So a starting point in standard learning packages are not so bad, especially if everyone understands it is just a starting point, and that further learning may alter what one now thinks of as certain and not needing explanation.
Peace
Dan
exactly...and there is just sooo much more to it. bottomline, the school environment is a group environment, focused on each individual to some extent...but also focused on the overall good of the group, educating the 'average' student and trying to reach all students.
a child/student is a product of the home environment, the school environment, and the influence of outside forces and people. the school community alone is not responsible for all learning of a child, nor should all a child's needs to be expected to be met there. sooo much learning is needed/required for true growth, and ALL of that cannot possibly happen in merely the school environment alone. so 'mindless drones' are brought up that way, not 'made' by schools. abook gave herself as a wonderful example, one who went through the public school system and yet managed to become a free-thinking, intelligent adult....b/c of what she DID learn in school, her ALL-important home environment AND key influences of choice individuals in her life.
also, one cannot expect a PUBLIC school system, funded by taxes, to be able to fit EVERY individual need, although the amount of services in place...they really do try. give some thought to the amount of subjects taught in any give day, classrooms filled with students of 20-30 children, a mandated curriculum, etc.....and the focus simply cannot be on EVERY individual, but on reaching the most as possible. OUTSIDE learning must also take place, especially critical support at home, encouraging learning and personal development. if the public school environment does not seem to serve your child's needs, then it is your responsibilty to find alternatives, i am ALL for alternative education, you simply cannot expect taxpayers to foot the bill.
i DO believe in supporting/funding public education b/c as a civilized society i think it is paramont for ALL to have access to education. beyond that, if one feels say that their child would be better served in smaller classes, our tax base simply cannot handle say, cutting class sizes in half...it barely makes do right now, and sure there is waste...but say doubling the amount of teachers, while ideal...just not feasible.....so then as parent, it is your choice to decide on funding this alternative education. i pay a LOT of $$$ in taxes towards public education, more than half my property tax bill, and we have an excellent school system, but if that is not enough...well sure, i fully support a parent's right to home school, or to find private, alternative education....i just don't think the taxbase should have to pay more for it.
almost every one of us to some degree defers to authority on a daily basis...every time you get in your car and respect the laws, when you arrive to work on time each day, spend a specified amount of time there.....are civil/courteous to coworkers who on your own time you wouldn't speak to....listening/deferring to the authority of a superior at work...etc, etc. does this make you a mindless drone? or merely a free-thinking, intelligent individual who also is a productive member of society, doing things to meet your own needs, and also the needs of others? this IS our society and how it functions, if you don't agree with even that...an entirely different story, but our school system is in place to help children learn, and also to be members of our collective society that we deem necessary. either is a choice, drone or free-thinker.....and neither is a product of simply the school environment.
i could go on and on with personal, specific examples of 'successes' in the current system, the need for following such a model for the group learning community...and yes, still the need for improvement. i don't think anyone suggests the system is perfect, far from it. however, for the time being...i have rambled on long enough........:p
almost every one of us to some degree defers to authority on a daily basis...every time you get in your car and respect the laws, when you arrive to work on time each day, spend a specified amount of time there.....are civil/courteous to coworkers who on your own time you wouldn't speak to....listening/deferring to the authority of a superior at work...etc, etc. does this make you a mindless drone? or merely a free-thinking, intelligent individual who also is a productive member of society, doing things to meet your own needs, and also the needs of others? this IS our society and how it functions, if you don't agree with even that...an entirely different story, but our school system is in place to help children learn, and also to be members of our collective society that we deem necessary. either is a choice, drone or free-thinker.....and neither is a product of simply the school environment.
That's very well put, and a very good point. I would have posted something to that effect myself, had it not slipped my mind while typing the rest. Well done!
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
no, i guess i'd say i live in a pretty good one...the local elementary school offers free breakfast and lunch during the summer a few days out of the week, there's lots of nice parks...maybe you missed the first word you quoted above from me, 'overall'...overall is far from each and every single person's case....in the overall picture the way our way of life is geared is not towards helping one another
How do you change the way our life is "geared"? You can't you force people to care more.
no, not really even close
I don't know what to say. You don't see all the good things people do for each other in our country and people around the world?
from your first post
what it boils down to...is competition, not coexistance...
This make it sound like you think they are mutually exclusive, I guess you didn't mean it that way?
never said they were, but i still stand behind what i said. for just one example the way pharmacuetical companies will keep things like aids drugs from being made 'genericaly' which means many ppl, especially in poorer countries, can not afford them. or the way so much food is just thrown away, not only by many individuals but just the fast-food and other restaurants, grocery stores, bakeries....throw away while so many have nothing to eat...
If you think getting cheap drugs is important why don't you go spend six years earning a masters in chemistry, then invest millions of dollars in equipment, spend about 15 years of your life conducting experiments, develop a medicine and then give it away.
If you are not willing to give away that much time of you life what right do you have to tell other people this is what they should do with theirs.
If you think getting cheap drugs is important why don't you go spend six years earning a masters in chemistry, then invest millions of dollars in equipment, spend about 15 years of your life conducting experiments, develop a medicine and then give it away.
Or....he could be true to what his authentic inner voice and vision direct him to doing, like he does now. Regardless of whether others are conflicted by it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The average person is known to sacrifice themselves and their integrity for others all the time, and to expect the same back, at this point in time, psychologically speaking. The average person is not individuated, according to psychology. This means that the majority of humans are psychologically crippled/imbalanced. And as a society we pay the price all the time.
I'm not providing examples, because I'm not willing to debate the details.
For example, the idea that a child is a "brat", or a willingness to skip healthy channels and to call someone an "idiot" cannot be justified. If these basics are not understood, there is little point to talk about the details, for me.
See, this is my problem with the points set forth in this thread. Nobody wants to give strong examples. Instead, we just get theories and quotes like "the majority of humans are psychologically crippled/imbalanced." Really? In whose eyes. Yours? This is supposed to convince me? Again, give me examples and not more theories, because until then I will have a hard time believing the school system is responsible.
Maybe, just maybe, it is not the school's responsibility to raise children, but to teach them. So, maybe, just maybe, when a child has problems growing up, it is not the school's fault, but the parent(s)'. I say parent(s) because we live in a time where having a two parent system is not seen as important and that day care is a quality replacement to a mother or father spending time with their child.
And calling a kid a "brat" is more of a reflection on the child's parents. And it isn't like we are directly calling the kid a brat to his or her face. I went out to dinner with some relatives who have 4 young kids and they are on a budget. Instead of telling their kids to get water instead of pop (expensive w/4 kids), they asked the kids if it was alright to have water instead of pop. Who is running the show here, kids or the adults? This is how brats get raised. Just imagine when these kids go out on their own and face the real world where they are not in-charge.
See, this is my problem with the points set forth in this thread. Nobody wants to give strong examples. Instead, we just get theories and quotes like "the majority of humans are psychologically crippled/imbalanced." Really? In whose eyes. Yours? This is supposed to convince me? Again, give me examples, because until then I will have a hard time believing the school system is responsible.
Maybe, just maybe, it is not the school's responsibility to raise children, but to teach them. So, maybe, just maybe, when a child has problems growing up, it is not the school's fault, but the parent(s)'. I say parent(s) because we live in a time where having a two parent system is not seen as important and that day care is a quality replacement to a mother or father spending time with their child.
And calling a kid a "brat" is more of a reflection on the child's parents. And it isn't like we are directly calling the kid a brat to his or her face.
I've no interest in convincing you or debating points. People believe what they want to believe.
I am stating my point of view. I've backed this stuff up time and again. I'm no longer interested in doing so. When people want to find something out for themselves, they will.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What if the prison study were applied...using senior citizens. I think the results would be far different, so what that tells me is that wisdom and experience, i.e, education, weighs into this heavily.
Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.
I think this is the key, abook. Great point. My 3 year old responds much better when I explain WHY she shouldn't run into the street or 'do flips' off the couch.
It would be ridiculous to suggest that 'rules' are not needed in a learning environment. But the old, 'because I said so' is no longer sufficient, I think.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
If you think getting cheap drugs is important why don't you go spend six years earning a masters in chemistry, then invest millions of dollars in equipment, spend about 15 years of your life conducting experiments, develop a medicine and then give it away.
If you are not willing to give away that much time of you life what right do you have to tell other people this is what they should do with theirs.
the pharma companies spend FAAAAAAR more on advertising than they do R&D...the individual does not pay for the equipment, the company does...they do it so they can have something to market and profit from
i
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Comments
even in an authoritative, oppressive environment.,...you managed to excel, and becoming the free-thinking individual you are today. who would've thunk that?
btw - i did read the link from the teacher you provided, a VERY good read...but also quite focused ONLY on the negatives, and there is so much more to it than that. obviously, as an award-winning and dedicated teacher...even in such confines...he too managed to excel as an educator...which thus i can only imagine helped his students to excel as well.
another thought - we human 'animals' are highly socialized creatures, like many other species. our closest relations, gorilla/chimpanzees....etc....all have evolved social dynamics of being members of the group, and almost all are an authoritative model. sure, there are group/sharing actitivites, but there is ultimately almost always an ever-present 'pecking order' for lack of a better term. down the line, animals such as dogs, also highly socialized pack animals, they too have alpha males/females...and absolutely defer to the authority. it is very common, and authority in and of itself, not a bad thing. ABUSE of authority, terrible...but an environment based on an authoritative model does not equate a bad learning environment in the least.
in todays day and age, students are required to learn and know MORE than ever, and learn all this in a 6.5 hour day, in 181 days in a school year. without 'structure' of classes, it does seem a rather unique challenge to fit it all in otherwise. as someone else mentioned and i fully agree..as student's age, the free-thinking grows with their maturity, but even at the highest levels of learning, in group environments, there is always structure of some form, results-based testing or activity to prove learning. in a group environment there is always going to have to be some model and authority...and sure, some degree of checking for knowledge. the concept of formalized group learning for ALL citizens is really not that 'old' a practice in human history...and certainly not to the degree of specialization and breadth of subjects covered as today, so it is always a work in progress...
one last thought for now, it also is interesting to me to read
b/c most of what i read in criticism about the schools systems of today was critical from an individual level, NOT the greater community. it seems most arguements for the 'mindless drones' or not encouraging 'self' is actually amore intyernalized, individual view....which of course EVERY student's needs have to be adressed.....but also, this is a PUBLIC, group learning environment...no getting around that...so the focus ALSO needs to be of the GREATER need of the overall GROUP...to reach as MANY students as possible, which does in fact lead to at least some authoritative/respect model for learning, so ALL students may get attention and focus for learning. certainly seems a community-based idea to me...the greater good of a learned/educated citizenry, a fairly 'new' concept in humanity, b/c education not all that long ago was for a priveliged few...and now, for all the masses...does seem to me at least, trying for the BALANCE between individual AND community needs, for the good of ALL, as best can be accomplished...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Well, perhaps it might be helpful for you to go back and study the meaning of assumption, Mr. Nobel Prize Winner.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I spent my time in school being bored outta my mind and daydreaming. I became what I am today because of key people in my life and the home environment I grew up in.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I read this link. I'm sure there are "award winning" teachers that disagree. I apologize for my "angry" posts, but I cannot help it. Threads like this baffle me. I seriously believe that people need to be responsible for themselves and not blame others. I generally do not like writing a needlessly long post. I'm just going to come out and say what I think. You see it as anger, but I don't see the need to write some longwinded response when I could just write a couple sentences and get to the point. I don't think calling someone an "idiot" is lazy, I think it is just a quicker way of saying "your ideas are wrong." Anyway, for you I will make a serios rebuttle to the link that hopefully isn't in an angry tone, but if it is, it is because I am honestly angry that people actually spend the time thinking up these things.
Seriously, one of this teacher's examples was granting hall passes. HALL PASSES! Hall passes are not about authority, it is about keeping kids from going for a smoke or vandelizing school property. And 300 seconds of time to get from class to class. The school day can't last for 11 hours. These are not issues meant to keep creativity down, but to just keep the day going. Homework was another item that I found an issue with. First, the complaint is that nothing is accomplished in the classes because they end too soon. Guess what, learning is not supposed to end in the classroom! Homework is assigned for the student to finish the learning at home, but this apparently is also frowned upon. You can't have it both ways. Again, homework and personal responsibity go hand in hand. Classrooms are to get you thinking, and the homework helps you apply what you've discussed. Homework also helps you to figure things out that weren't discussed in class. If you don't have the discipline to complete the learning, that is your fault. There's some stat out there that you retain the most information when you write something down, and not when you only hear it or speak it. The classroom is where you get the ideas, and the homework helps you to learn and retain it by writing it out. Also, with all the ADD out there, you expect a classroom of 20-30 kids to focus for more than 50 minutes?
If you want to change the education system in our country, you gotta change the family. Pure and simple. Nothing else will work. More money will not teach kids in the ghetto. They are not going to say, "I've got a computer, I will now focus on learning." A kid in the suburbs who comes home to an empty house and plays video games for 3 hours and then stays up until 11 or 12 because the parents don't care will also have a hard time focusing in school. What will make them focus on learning is a parent or strong role model who takes an active role in that child's life and encourages them in the right direction.
so perhaps you would've benefitted from a gifted program, which most school systems do have in place..from home schooling, or alternative school. as i said, there is no one right *fit* for EVERY student...the public school system is designed to offer an education for ALL, for the greater community, which is made up of individuals...but overall, must cater to the needs of the 'average' student, while also trying to accommodate both the gifted and the challenged students......so yea, it's all balance as best can be done. it's not a perfect system, and never will be.
as i said i think in my first post - well hinted towards anyway, the 'ideal' would be for EVERY student to have their own individualized curriculum tailor-made for their learning and developmental style...and then socialization in the larger community. however, in a large-scale learning environment we simply do not have the means for such, so yes....it is developed to cater to the larger group of learners as best to accomodate all learners and styles. not ideal.....but does offer the community of learning for all.
btw - you also showed a KEY elements of your success: key people in your life and your home environment...it IS a triology to your success as a free-thinking, intelligent individual....not just the responsibility of the school environment. perhaps you were not as 'challenged' as you might've been, but i am sure you still 'learned' a great deal, got the necessary tools for thinking/learning on your own...coupled with those key people and home environment, a recipe for your personal success. it ALL is pivotal in the learning process.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I did not read this post before I wrote the last paragraph in my previous post. Maybe we might agree on one thing at least.
And who wasn't bored in school? Everyone was. But you still were able to get enough out of it to make something of yourself.
no, i guess i'd say i live in a pretty good one...the local elementary school offers free breakfast and lunch during the summer a few days out of the week, there's lots of nice parks...maybe you missed the first word you quoted above from me, 'overall'...overall is far from each and every single person's case....in the overall picture the way our way of life is geared is not towards helping one another
no, not really even close
never said they were, but i still stand behind what i said. for just one example the way pharmacuetical companies will keep things like aids drugs from being made 'genericaly' which means many ppl, especially in poorer countries, can not afford them. or the way so much food is just thrown away, not only by many individuals but just the fast-food and other restaurants, grocery stores, bakeries....throw away while so many have nothing to eat...
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Hell, even my university schooling were built like that. In the starting subjects in sociology, we were given all these theories to learn and accept at least for argument's sakes. We wouldn't do anything much with them, but we were required to learn them to be able to answer questions about them. Now, when I progressed to the master's level I could utilize this knowledge, see how the various theories came to be and why and what they were trying to explain and on what premises. I could then start to think critically and creatively about these things, that I had to just learn at the start. It's about progression in learning and thinking.
Now this is no blanket support for authority and standardized learning. However, like d2d I think that some respect for authority and the "playing rules" must be adhered to in a group learning environment in order for it to function at all. Furthermore, in order to think critically about various subjects, you must first learn what the subject is. Dont teach kids (or anyone really) postmodern deconstructivism before they even know the construct or what is being deconstructed. To be able to be critical towards the theories of Marx, you must first know what the theories are, and so on. So a starting point in standard learning packages are not so bad, especially if everyone understands it is just a starting point, and that further learning may alter what one now thinks of as certain and not needing explanation.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I'm not providing examples, because I'm not willing to debate the details.
For example, the idea that a child is a "brat", or a willingness to skip healthy channels and to call someone an "idiot" cannot be justified. If these basics are not understood, there is little point to talk about the details, for me.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
exactly...and there is just sooo much more to it. bottomline, the school environment is a group environment, focused on each individual to some extent...but also focused on the overall good of the group, educating the 'average' student and trying to reach all students.
a child/student is a product of the home environment, the school environment, and the influence of outside forces and people. the school community alone is not responsible for all learning of a child, nor should all a child's needs to be expected to be met there. sooo much learning is needed/required for true growth, and ALL of that cannot possibly happen in merely the school environment alone. so 'mindless drones' are brought up that way, not 'made' by schools. abook gave herself as a wonderful example, one who went through the public school system and yet managed to become a free-thinking, intelligent adult....b/c of what she DID learn in school, her ALL-important home environment AND key influences of choice individuals in her life.
also, one cannot expect a PUBLIC school system, funded by taxes, to be able to fit EVERY individual need, although the amount of services in place...they really do try. give some thought to the amount of subjects taught in any give day, classrooms filled with students of 20-30 children, a mandated curriculum, etc.....and the focus simply cannot be on EVERY individual, but on reaching the most as possible. OUTSIDE learning must also take place, especially critical support at home, encouraging learning and personal development. if the public school environment does not seem to serve your child's needs, then it is your responsibilty to find alternatives, i am ALL for alternative education, you simply cannot expect taxpayers to foot the bill.
i DO believe in supporting/funding public education b/c as a civilized society i think it is paramont for ALL to have access to education. beyond that, if one feels say that their child would be better served in smaller classes, our tax base simply cannot handle say, cutting class sizes in half...it barely makes do right now, and sure there is waste...but say doubling the amount of teachers, while ideal...just not feasible.....so then as parent, it is your choice to decide on funding this alternative education. i pay a LOT of $$$ in taxes towards public education, more than half my property tax bill, and we have an excellent school system, but if that is not enough...well sure, i fully support a parent's right to home school, or to find private, alternative education....i just don't think the taxbase should have to pay more for it.
almost every one of us to some degree defers to authority on a daily basis...every time you get in your car and respect the laws, when you arrive to work on time each day, spend a specified amount of time there.....are civil/courteous to coworkers who on your own time you wouldn't speak to....listening/deferring to the authority of a superior at work...etc, etc. does this make you a mindless drone? or merely a free-thinking, intelligent individual who also is a productive member of society, doing things to meet your own needs, and also the needs of others? this IS our society and how it functions, if you don't agree with even that...an entirely different story, but our school system is in place to help children learn, and also to be members of our collective society that we deem necessary. either is a choice, drone or free-thinker.....and neither is a product of simply the school environment.
i could go on and on with personal, specific examples of 'successes' in the current system, the need for following such a model for the group learning community...and yes, still the need for improvement. i don't think anyone suggests the system is perfect, far from it. however, for the time being...i have rambled on long enough........:p
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Particularly this part: That's very well put, and a very good point. I would have posted something to that effect myself, had it not slipped my mind while typing the rest. Well done!
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
How do you change the way our life is "geared"? You can't you force people to care more.
I don't know what to say. You don't see all the good things people do for each other in our country and people around the world?
from your first post
This make it sound like you think they are mutually exclusive, I guess you didn't mean it that way?
If you think getting cheap drugs is important why don't you go spend six years earning a masters in chemistry, then invest millions of dollars in equipment, spend about 15 years of your life conducting experiments, develop a medicine and then give it away.
If you are not willing to give away that much time of you life what right do you have to tell other people this is what they should do with theirs.
There is a lot of wasted food.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
See, this is my problem with the points set forth in this thread. Nobody wants to give strong examples. Instead, we just get theories and quotes like "the majority of humans are psychologically crippled/imbalanced." Really? In whose eyes. Yours? This is supposed to convince me? Again, give me examples and not more theories, because until then I will have a hard time believing the school system is responsible.
Maybe, just maybe, it is not the school's responsibility to raise children, but to teach them. So, maybe, just maybe, when a child has problems growing up, it is not the school's fault, but the parent(s)'. I say parent(s) because we live in a time where having a two parent system is not seen as important and that day care is a quality replacement to a mother or father spending time with their child.
And calling a kid a "brat" is more of a reflection on the child's parents. And it isn't like we are directly calling the kid a brat to his or her face. I went out to dinner with some relatives who have 4 young kids and they are on a budget. Instead of telling their kids to get water instead of pop (expensive w/4 kids), they asked the kids if it was alright to have water instead of pop. Who is running the show here, kids or the adults? This is how brats get raised. Just imagine when these kids go out on their own and face the real world where they are not in-charge.
I am stating my point of view. I've backed this stuff up time and again. I'm no longer interested in doing so. When people want to find something out for themselves, they will.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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I think this is the key, abook. Great point. My 3 year old responds much better when I explain WHY she shouldn't run into the street or 'do flips' off the couch.
It would be ridiculous to suggest that 'rules' are not needed in a learning environment. But the old, 'because I said so' is no longer sufficient, I think.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
that sounds defeatist
what i meant was competition is stressed more than coexistance
the pharma companies spend FAAAAAAR more on advertising than they do R&D...the individual does not pay for the equipment, the company does...they do it so they can have something to market and profit from
i
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
http://www.educationreformbooks.net/index.html
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde