Human Behavior Experiments

angelica

PaperPlates wrote:

Please feel free to compliment me anytime.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

We are not yet in a place where we have generated school systems that enable a healthy unfolding of self--nor are we there yet in families to do so.

I see it as a vicious circle of authority and that the cycles keep repeating.

I personally have found ways to detach my children from the effects of the system. They have gone through it, but they are outside of it because we have learned what was necessary to remain true to our own respective visions. They know how to work systems and structures, while being independent thinkers. Others find their own way to do so, some through the system as we have, and others through alternatives such as home-schooling and the Montessori systems.

and how do they deal with functioning in the current 'system's out in the adult world? the world of careers? one needs to develop themselves for themselves...but also to be an active, participating member of society as well. it's all balance, and as in most things...there is no one right way. bottomline, imho, when tryint to educate MILLIONs of students, ALL with varying learning styles and abilities...all within a group learning environemtn, it is all about trying to find balance to reach the most...and try and get the individual help for those who need more outisde the group classroom structure. there are 'ideals' to be striven for, and then there is the reality of what is...and one must find the best they can do in such a structure/system...for the benefit of most. and absolutely, i FULLY support home-schooling, montessori schools, charter schools and any/all alternative systems...but in the general public school systems, basically have to try and follow the model to benefit the most, the greatest good, etc.


i think it is VERY possible to be taught in a public school system and FULLY develop as an independent thinker....AND fully participate in being a member of society as well. thankfully, i think most do....and some, need a bit more outside of that. it is finding what works for each individual that is the trick, and absolutely...the public school classroom model may NOT be the right environment for everyone....but for serving the largest group of students, it seems the *best* for lack of a better term, system we have to serve such a large # of students, and it is continually under revision and improvement...and always will be.

Alex_Coe

angelica wrote:

You were very lucky then, or you didn't talk back.

My son is very respectful and yet he has been taught and encouraged to question things, by me, and numerous times teachers have gotten upset and responded inappropriately to his questions, expecting submission to authority.

I was muscled out of the school system at age 16 for "insubordination", because I disagreed with a teacher.

Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."

angelica

Alex_Coe wrote:

Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."

yikes. I question anyone who calls a child a "brat".

angelica

Alex_Coe wrote:

Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."

I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.

decides2dream

btw - one last thought for the evening on this subject...anyone who considers students to be encouraged to be 'mindless drones''....just needs to step foot in just about ANY kindergarten class today. yep, kindergarten...since while many dismiss this class/grade as glorified play/babysitting., it actually sets up a model for almost ALL future learning in a group environment. i was an art teacher, but i interacted/shared with my collegues regularly, and each visited each others' classrooms regularly...and i can attest to the dynamic, free-thinking environments...at this young age level. i know the idea of 'centers of learning'...with different stations set up with various learning actiivites at each, where students may freely roam at their own pace between........was used actively and regularly...and i could go on and on, at progressive learning levels, to deomonstrate anything but merely a pure, authoritative model of learning. for anyone i encourage them to spend time in a public school classroom, talk with educators....see what's going on. lots always to improive, but yes, a great deal is being done *right*...right now as well.


to the post above - btw - i would say more than likely, you were expected to sacrifice your own 'purposes' for the greater good of the GROUP learning environment more than the 'system'...so yes, perhaps you would have been better served in a home-school and/or alternative system...b/c yes, the GREATER good of the GROUP learning environment has to trump the individual b/c there are anywhere from 20 to 30 students in any one classroom who all need to be LEARNING...so sadly, perhaps some students have difficulty in such an environment, so other situations need to be embraced for such....but that's not the 'system' but merely the dynamics of group-learning. again, not ideal...but the *best* we have right now to educate the largest group of students at a given time.

Alex_Coe

angelica wrote:

I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.

Uhhh... pretty much everybody does that. Sometimes you gotta submit to "arbitrary" authority for the good of the masses. It's how civilization works.

angelica

Alex_Coe wrote:

Uhhh... pretty much everybody does that. Sometimes you gotta submit to "arbitrary" authority for the good of the masses. It's how civilization works.

yeah, whatever.

edit:

bootlegger10

Personal responsibility. Grasp this idea! What is so hard about going to school, writing a damn paper, doing some math problems, and running a science experiment? If you can't do that without pissing the teacher off than you need to grow up. GROW UP. I'm tired of these sob stories about teachers and adults who "didn't understand me." What is there to even disagree about in school that is so important? Math is math. Science is science. You can disagree about the meaning of literature and I doubt most teachers would care. School is temporary. My attitude was always get in and get out. School is just a hoop to jump through. Grades don't mean shit out in the real world. Finally, if your kid is in trouble at school tell him or her to learn how to deal with it because that is life. Stop trying to tailor everything to your kids, then they won't have to work at all.

There are no drones, just people who don't feel the need to overanalyze everything to death!

bootlegger10

angelica wrote:

I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.

Could you provide some examples, because I never once felt like I had to sacrifice anything for the system. I cannot even think of a situation where I would have been expected to.

lucylespian

Alex_Coe wrote:

Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."

I was harrassed and persecuted out of school for havibg a questioning mind, for wanting to understand all the teaching in the context of all I knew and was being taught, not content to just re-gurgitate. I was harrasssed out of my first career training attempt for the same reason. Labelled a brat plenty of times, I was not. Young, restless, curious, smartarse definitely.
One teacher in particular made it her mission to force me into the box. Ironically in my last full year I was failing her subject, English, while toppng the academic stream class in German and science, go figure. Sure I did not handle that conflict very well, and I fought her tooth and nail, but hey, I was just a kid, I should not have had a fight on my hands at all.
UNiverstiy was much more fun, an inquiring questioning mind was welcome there.

Ahnimus

No one is morally responsible.

Abookamongstthemany

bootlegger10 wrote:

Personal responsibility. Grasp this idea! What is so hard about going to school, writing a damn paper, doing some math problems, and running a science experiment? If you can't do that without pissing the teacher off than you need to grow up. GROW UP. I'm tired of these sob stories about teachers and adults who "didn't understand me." What is there to even disagree about in school that is so important? Math is math. Science is science. You can disagree about the meaning of literature and I doubt most teachers would care. School is temporary. My attitude was always get in and get out. School is just a hoop to jump through. Grades don't mean shit out in the real world. Finally, if your kid is in trouble at school tell him or her to learn how to deal with it because that is life. Stop trying to tailor everything to your kids, then they won't have to work at all.

There are no drones, just people who don't feel the need to overanalyze everything to death!

Personal responsibilty is the idea I'm grasping. The notion that a person should be responsible for themselves instead of having way too much authority act responsible for you.

Did you read the link I posted a few pages back? It explains the problems I see within the school system quite well and is written by an awarding winning teacher no less. It doesn't have anything to do with pissing off the teachers and inability to do school work. It is about principle and being able to build independency. If you disgree then fine but drop this over the top, angry guy shit you pull in every post.

bootlegger10

Ahnimus wrote:

No one is morally responsible.

Not even Bush?

Galaxie2X4

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.

Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.

Ahnimus

Hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn6nqd-nCko

Abookamongstthemany

Galaxie2X4 wrote:

Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.

I was an honors student but it's always fun to make these assumptions, eh?

Ahnimus

bootlegger10 wrote:

Not even Bush?

Not even Bush unfortunately.

lucylespian

Galaxie2X4 wrote:

Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.

Structure is fine, oppression is not !!

Galaxie2X4

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I was an honors student but it's always fun to make these assumptions, eh?

And I'm a Nobel Prize winner!?!? I didn't think I was making an assumption based on your previous posts, specifically the broad generalizations.