Human Behavior Experiments

Alex_Coe

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.

I like what you're saying, but remember: There's certain;ly some impressionable 12 year old out there who will watch this documentary and all of the sudden he will feel justified in doing whatever the hell he wants. Kids are way too immature to understand this. If you tell a fifth grader you don't have to obey arbitrary authority, he'll refuse to obey any authority. Everyone has to be really mature with this kind of experiment. It's almost dangerous information. Kids in general are too impressionable to be told "watch out for the authorities." I think the only people mature enough to watch this stuff are kids 15+ (oh what a coincidence, I'm just old enough.) :rollseyes:

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.

Very nice, Abook!

There are some kids who cannot accept blind authority that goes against their inner perception and awareness. Personality typing charts people with this particular type of intelligence. They have the potential to be our independent thinkers and the creators of our systems. They get punished, ostracised and shamed for going against the grain in the school system. This type of shaming/blaming can and does cause many to become social dropouts, due to the "insanity" of society. This causes myriad problems--running the gamut from addiction to mental illness and seemingly endless "disorders" in between.

Alex_Coe

Ahnimus wrote:

I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.

That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.

Ahnimus

Alex_Coe wrote:

That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.

That's because you weren't me

angelica

Alex_Coe wrote:

That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.

You were very lucky then, or you didn't talk back.

My son is very respectful and yet he has been taught and encouraged to question things, by me, and numerous times teachers have gotten upset and responded inappropriately to his questions, expecting submission to authority.

I was muscled out of the school system at age 16 for "insubordination", because I disagreed with a teacher.

Ahnimus

I think it's funny that children inevitably go into that stage where they keep asking "But why?"

"Can you please take the garbage out?"

"but why?"

"because someone needs to take it out and I'm busy."

"But why?"

"because it will decompose and start to stink if it isn't taken out"

"But why?"

"Because microorganisms called bacteria will accumulate and decompose the garbage"

"But why?"

"Shut up and take the garbage out"

lucylespian

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.

I like this post, it has a lot in there which I sympathise wiht, being a total school failure because teh system did not care about teaching me, just about keeping me in my box.
But I also thought paperplates response was very valid. She seems to be getting good schooling for her kiblets. MAybe the systems are changeing. I certainly see plenty of kids these days who have great teachers adn love school, maybe she got lucky.

lucylespian

PaperPlates wrote:

The current schooling system is conditioning children to be "mindless drones"? Really? My daughter is 7 and is already capable of more coherent thought and individualism than most on this board are. Product of good parenting in tandem with good schooling/teachers. Crazy idnt it?>\


Maybe the schools in your town suck, but thats not a product of the system as much as it is a product of the people your town is made up of. And i dont know that people act so "helpless and lost throughout life" "everywhere". Are you speaking for yourself, or the millions of Americans out there? Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you, but your claim of "mindless drones" is odd, to say the least.

And as far as the people who ARE "lost and helpless", that is a product of what they've created for themselves, not what was created or taught to them. Everyone creates their own reality.

MAybe you are giving the school credit whoch more desercedly should go to you. MAybe your preparation of children for school is enabling them to get theses things from it.
I certianbkly have failed out of both school and employment because I just could not become a midless drone. Fortunately I stumbled into a career where I am able to combine individuality with achievement.

decides2dream

i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.


no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.


i do agree with whomever mentioned the overall need for some form of sturcture and discipline in a formal learning environment, only b/c when you have 25 to 30 kids in a classroom, some degree of structure is necessary for the greater good of the class. in an 'ideal world' students could be taught individually, then soicalized within groups...but in reality, that has never been the case.

someone too mentioned that throughout our lives we DO need to learn to adapt to authority b/c let's face it, most of us do work full-time...and for someone else...so to have socialization/respect for others serves us all well. it IS possible to respect authority to some degree while still maintaining a strong sense of autonomy...and function well independently AND as a social member of society.

i am by no means suggesting our current system is *ideal*...however, i do believe that it's at the best it's ever been to balance a sense of self and a sense of community...a balance of indivudual and group....etc. and let's face it...parents play a pivotal role in a child's view of their own education and how they learn...and encouyraging them to excel, believe in themselves and balance their lives. i sufggest spending some time in a classroom today before passing judgement. i for one was very proud of my classroom environemtn and felt the bulk of my collegues always put the student's needs first, always....and encouraged EACH student to their full potential....yes, within a structured classroom environment.


btw - sheesh, please excuse my terrible typos.....:o...tis no reflection on me beyond i never learned to type properly and thus am a dyslexic typist. haha.

PaperPlates

lucylespian wrote:

MAybe you are giving the school credit whoch more desercedly should go to you. MAybe your preparation of children for school is enabling them to get theses things from it.
I certianbkly have failed out of both school and employment because I just could not become a midless drone. Fortunately I stumbled into a career where I am able to combine individuality with achievement.

So, then parents are more responsible for churning out "mindless drones", than the school system is.

decides2dream wrote:

i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.


no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.


i do agree with whomever mentioned the overall need for some form of sturcture and discipline in a formal learning environment, only b/c when you have 25 to 30 kids in a classroom, some degree of structure is necessary for the greater good of the class. in an 'ideal world' students could be taught individually, then soicalized within groups...but in reality, that has never been the case.

someone too mentioned that throughout our lives we DO need to learn to adapt to authority b/c let's face it, most of us do work full-time...and for someone else...so to have socialization/respect for others serves us all well. it IS possible to respect authority to some degree while still maintaining a strong sense of autonomy...and function well independently AND as a social member of society.

i am by no means suggesting our current system is *ideal*...however, i do believe that it's at the best it's ever been to balance a sense of self and a sense of community...a balance of indivudual and group....etc. and let's face it...parents play a pivotal role in a child's view of their own education and how they learn...and encouyraging them to excel, believe in themselves and balance their lives. i sufggest spending some time in a classroom today before passing judgement. i for one was very proud of my classroom environemtn and felt the bulk of my collegues always put the student's needs first, always....and encouraged EACH student to their full potential....yes, within a structured classroom environment.

Structure for kids. What a novel concept.


Well put D2D.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.


no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.

I agree the the ideals of the school system, and definitely here in Canada, are often quite wonderful. And yet, the greatest ideals, taught by individuals who are raised in and who perpetuate authority based, rather than democratically based, ways makes all the difference.

On the other hand, the whole purpose behind a Montessori type of school is to enable our children to learn to independently think, and to lead their own lives and make their own way.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

I agree the the ideals of the school system, and definitely here in Canada, are often quite wonderful. And yet, the greatest ideals, taught by individuals who are raised in and who perpetuate authority based, rather than democratically based, ways makes all the difference.

On the other hand, the whole purpose behind a Montessori type of school is to enable our children to learn to independently think, and to lead their own lives and make their own way.

and even in a montessori school enviromnment, there IS structure....b/c to have anything in a group environment, some structure, and yes respect for authority...is necessary. and quite honestly, as mentioned, to function in this world...some degree of respect for one's self and for others...and being able to function, adapt and thrive...individually and as part of a group...it is necessary to have some degree of structure.


i think some really need to revisit classrooms TODAY. as i said, i am by no means saying our school systems are beyond improvement...but they absolutely encourage independent thinking, creativity...and yea, no mindless drones. if your school system does not, well then...fight for what should be available for your students because the current models more often than not DO encourage individual thought. i know this, firsthand.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

and even in a montessori school enviromnment, there IS structure....b/c to have anything in a group environment, some structure, and yes respect for authority...is necessary. and quite honestly, as mentioned, to function in this world...some degree of respect for one's self and for others...and being able to function, adapt and thrive...individually and as part of a group...it is necessary to have some degree of structure.

I don't believe anyone has said structure and respect are bad. Being asked to sacrifice one's ideas, strengths, truths, etc. for the system is unhealthy--and yes, definitely as a child. The Montessori school focuses on individual health with limits.

i think some really need to revisit classrooms TODAY. as i said, i am by no means saying our school systems are beyond improvement...but they absolutely encourage independent thinking, creativity...and yea, no mindless drones. if your school system does not, well then...fight for what should be available for your students because the current models more often than not DO encourage individual thought. i know this, firsthand.

My son is still in school, and I've personally had to call out teachers numerous times in these past few years. And these teachers have backed down when presented with adult reasoning as to their human-fallibility. Teachers use "authority" to "win" without fairness and reason, but when they face an equal adult with reasoning, the blanket authority rule does not hold up. There is always room for improvement. And honestly, the systems are filled with holes.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

I don't believe anyone has said structure and respect are bad. Being asked to sacrifice one's ideas, strengths, truths, etc. for the system is unhealthy--and yes, definitely as a child. The Montessori school focuses on individual health with limits.


My son is still in school, and I've personally had to call out teachers numerous times in these past few years. And these teachers have backed down when presented with adult reasoning as to their human-fallibility. Teachers use "authority" to "win" without fairness and reason, but when they face an equal adult with reasoning, the blanket authority rule does not hold up. There is always room for improvement. And honestly, the systems are filled with holes.

it doea seem some have at least insinuated it is to some degree 'bad'.....that's all. i also don't suggest it's all 'good' but rather, what is necessary in a climate where you have a group that needs to learn. the classroom dynamics being that you will have gifted students, challenged students and everyone inbetween, with standards to be met...it is a challenge to say the least to try and accommodate the whole gamut of learning styles.

and yes of course, i am by no means suggesting our current system is perfect, nor that all teachers do all they can. however, the task should fall equally on both teachers and parents alike to FULLY educate every student, b/c a student needs to be encouraged at home as well as in the classroom.....as the saying goes...it takes a village.......


btw - going back to an earlier comment...i do not believe a school needs to be a 'democratic' environment, not in the least. i do believe in an authoritative environment, but one that is FULLY based on re3spect for ALL individuals. however, easpecially at the elementary level, i think it's important for students to have authority figures for guidance, and they do not need to be given huge choice to be able to learn and thrive. even most home environments are NOT based on democratic models....and i do not believe in all instances that democracy is always the right choice. it IS more than poissible to have an authoritative environment that has mutual respect for learners and educators...but yes, one does set the tone, and the others respect that environment for the greater good of the learning community. many may disagree with me there...and that's a-ok. not saying it';s the only 'right' way, but from my decade in the classroom and my personal education, imho, it does seem the overall best environment for learning for the group to all have a chance to learn. even in my most 'open' learning environments at the graduate level, there still was always some degree of deference/respect for the authority/wisdom of the teacher/professor.

lucylespian

PaperPlates wrote:

So, then parents are more responsible for churning out "mindless drones", than the school system is.



Structure for kids. What a novel concept.


Well put D2D.

There's me giving you a compliment, and you turn it around in an almost nasty way. No, parents do not turn out drones, schools do, or at least they used to. Good parents contribute to the education of theri children, poor ones rely on the system and bitch about poor results.
Next time I feel like directing a nice comment to you, I won't bother !!

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

it doea seem some have at least insinuated it is to some degree 'bad'.....that's all. i also don't suggest it's all 'good' but rather, what is necessary in a climate where you have a group that needs to learn. the classroom dynamics being that you will have gifted students, challenged students and everyone inbetween, with standards to be met...it is a challenge to say the least to try and accommodate the whole gamut of learning styles.

and yes of course, i am by no means suggesting our current system is perfect, nor that all teachers do all they can. however, the task should fall equally on both teachers and parents alike to FULLY educate every student, b/c a student needs to be encouraged at home as well as in the classroom.....as the saying goes...it takes a village.......

I will say that I have seen a lot of positive intent in the school system. And when I have intervened on behalf of my children, ALL teachers in my experience have shown a willingness, and even happiness to work with me. And they've been very receptive to receive my input on my children's own particular learning issues. It was as much my responsibility to learn and grow to meet the challenges of advocating for my children being treated in a way I knew they deserved. Ultimately, though, I've known many teachers who work very hard and do the best they can.

I think overall the system is not at all ideal, in terms of encouraging kids to be all that they can be. We just have not evolved there yet as a society, to create that ideal. It is what it is. I agree with Abook that the system as is encourages following authority.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

I think overall the system is not at all ideal, in terms of encouraging kids to be all that they can be. We just have not evolved there yet as a society, to create that ideal.

i don't think we will ever reach an 'ideal'...but as long as we are always trying for the 'ideal'....i think we are on the right course. society, parenting and education in general has changed/developed in leaps and bounds in only the past 50 years alone...and it is difficult at best for school systems with the care of educating millions of children in less than ideal environments to keep pace and do the very best for EVERY student. however, i still believe an authority/based environment is a fair model...b/c when the REAL world abandons an authoritative model will be when education should abandon it too...and our society is NO where near that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. if anything, our society and school system is FAR more advanced and accepting of fre-thought moreso than EVER before in the history of our public school system, so that to me signifies at least TRYing to keep pace with the desire of the society as a collective.

Abookamongstthemany

I've seen plenty inside the school system.

And this is from an award winning teacher:

http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html?seenIEPage=1

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

i don't think we will ever reach an 'ideal'...but as long as we are always trying for the 'ideal'....i think we are on the right course. society, parenting and education in general has changed/developed in leaps and bounds in only the past 50 years alone...and it is difficult at best for school systems with the care of educating millions of children in less than ideal environments to keep pace and do the very best for EVERY student. however, i still believe an authority/based environment is a fair model...b/c when the REAL world abandons an authoritative model will be when education should abandon it too...and our society is NO where near that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. if anything, our society and school system is FAR more advanced and accepting of fre-thought moreso than EVER before in the history of our public school system, so that to me signifies at least TRYing to keep pace with the desire of the society as a collective.

We are not yet in a place where we have generated school systems that enable a healthy unfolding of self--nor are we there yet in families to do so.

I see it as a vicious circle of authority and that the cycles keep repeating.

I personally have found ways to detach my children from the effects of the system. They have gone through it, but they are outside of it because we have learned what was necessary to remain true to our own respective visions. They know how to work systems and structures, while being independent thinkers. Others find their own way to do so, some through the system as we have, and others through alternatives such as home-schooling and the Montessori systems.

PaperPlates

lucylespian wrote:

There's me giving you a compliment, and you turn it around in an almost nasty way. No, parents do not turn out drones, schools do, or at least they used to. Good parents contribute to the education of theri children, poor ones rely on the system and bitch about poor results.
Next time I feel like directing a nice comment to you, I won't bother !!

Twasnt as much a response to you, as it was taking your kind words and referring them back to the OP who thinks mindless drones are the fault of the schools. Sorry if I didnt make myself clear. I rarely do. My gifts are with images, not words. Sorry. Please feel free to compliment me anytime.