i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.
no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.
I agree the the ideals of the school system, and definitely here in Canada, are often quite wonderful. And yet, the greatest ideals, taught by individuals who are raised in and who perpetuate authority based, rather than democratically based, ways makes all the difference.
On the other hand, the whole purpose behind a Montessori type of school is to enable our children to learn to independently think, and to lead their own lives and make their own way.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I agree the the ideals of the school system, and definitely here in Canada, are often quite wonderful. And yet, the greatest ideals, taught by individuals who are raised in and who perpetuate authority based, rather than democratically based, ways makes all the difference.
On the other hand, the whole purpose behind a Montessori type of school is to enable our children to learn to independently think, and to lead their own lives and make their own way.
and even in a montessori school enviromnment, there IS structure....b/c to have anything in a group environment, some structure, and yes respect for authority...is necessary. and quite honestly, as mentioned, to function in this world...some degree of respect for one's self and for others...and being able to function, adapt and thrive...individually and as part of a group...it is necessary to have some degree of structure.
i think some really need to revisit classrooms TODAY. as i said, i am by no means saying our school systems are beyond improvement...but they absolutely encourage independent thinking, creativity...and yea, no mindless drones. if your school system does not, well then...fight for what should be available for your students because the current models more often than not DO encourage individual thought. i know this, firsthand.
and even in a montessori school enviromnment, there IS structure....b/c to have anything in a group environment, some structure, and yes respect for authority...is necessary. and quite honestly, as mentioned, to function in this world...some degree of respect for one's self and for others...and being able to function, adapt and thrive...individually and as part of a group...it is necessary to have some degree of structure.
I don't believe anyone has said structure and respect are bad. Being asked to sacrifice one's ideas, strengths, truths, etc. for the system is unhealthy--and yes, definitely as a child. The Montessori school focuses on individual health with limits.
i think some really need to revisit classrooms TODAY. as i said, i am by no means saying our school systems are beyond improvement...but they absolutely encourage independent thinking, creativity...and yea, no mindless drones. if your school system does not, well then...fight for what should be available for your students because the current models more often than not DO encourage individual thought. i know this, firsthand.
My son is still in school, and I've personally had to call out teachers numerous times in these past few years. And these teachers have backed down when presented with adult reasoning as to their human-fallibility. Teachers use "authority" to "win" without fairness and reason, but when they face an equal adult with reasoning, the blanket authority rule does not hold up. There is always room for improvement. And honestly, the systems are filled with holes.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I don't believe anyone has said structure and respect are bad. Being asked to sacrifice one's ideas, strengths, truths, etc. for the system is unhealthy--and yes, definitely as a child. The Montessori school focuses on individual health with limits.
My son is still in school, and I've personally had to call out teachers numerous times in these past few years. And these teachers have backed down when presented with adult reasoning as to their human-fallibility. Teachers use "authority" to "win" without fairness and reason, but when they face an equal adult with reasoning, the blanket authority rule does not hold up. There is always room for improvement. And honestly, the systems are filled with holes.
it doea seem some have at least insinuated it is to some degree 'bad'.....that's all. i also don't suggest it's all 'good' but rather, what is necessary in a climate where you have a group that needs to learn. the classroom dynamics being that you will have gifted students, challenged students and everyone inbetween, with standards to be met...it is a challenge to say the least to try and accommodate the whole gamut of learning styles.
and yes of course, i am by no means suggesting our current system is perfect, nor that all teachers do all they can. however, the task should fall equally on both teachers and parents alike to FULLY educate every student, b/c a student needs to be encouraged at home as well as in the classroom.....as the saying goes...it takes a village.......
btw - going back to an earlier comment...i do not believe a school needs to be a 'democratic' environment, not in the least. i do believe in an authoritative environment, but one that is FULLY based on re3spect for ALL individuals. however, easpecially at the elementary level, i think it's important for students to have authority figures for guidance, and they do not need to be given huge choice to be able to learn and thrive. even most home environments are NOT based on democratic models....and i do not believe in all instances that democracy is always the right choice. it IS more than poissible to have an authoritative environment that has mutual respect for learners and educators...but yes, one does set the tone, and the others respect that environment for the greater good of the learning community. many may disagree with me there...and that's a-ok. not saying it';s the only 'right' way, but from my decade in the classroom and my personal education, imho, it does seem the overall best environment for learning for the group to all have a chance to learn. even in my most 'open' learning environments at the graduate level, there still was always some degree of deference/respect for the authority/wisdom of the teacher/professor.
So, then parents are more responsible for churning out "mindless drones", than the school system is.
Structure for kids. What a novel concept.
Well put D2D.
There's me giving you a compliment, and you turn it around in an almost nasty way. No, parents do not turn out drones, schools do, or at least they used to. Good parents contribute to the education of theri children, poor ones rely on the system and bitch about poor results.
Next time I feel like directing a nice comment to you, I won't bother !!
it doea seem some have at least insinuated it is to some degree 'bad'.....that's all. i also don't suggest it's all 'good' but rather, what is necessary in a climate where you have a group that needs to learn. the classroom dynamics being that you will have gifted students, challenged students and everyone inbetween, with standards to be met...it is a challenge to say the least to try and accommodate the whole gamut of learning styles.
and yes of course, i am by no means suggesting our current system is perfect, nor that all teachers do all they can. however, the task should fall equally on both teachers and parents alike to FULLY educate every student, b/c a student needs to be encouraged at home as well as in the classroom.....as the saying goes...it takes a village.......
I will say that I have seen a lot of positive intent in the school system. And when I have intervened on behalf of my children, ALL teachers in my experience have shown a willingness, and even happiness to work with me. And they've been very receptive to receive my input on my children's own particular learning issues. It was as much my responsibility to learn and grow to meet the challenges of advocating for my children being treated in a way I knew they deserved. Ultimately, though, I've known many teachers who work very hard and do the best they can.
I think overall the system is not at all ideal, in terms of encouraging kids to be all that they can be. We just have not evolved there yet as a society, to create that ideal. It is what it is. I agree with Abook that the system as is encourages following authority.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I think overall the system is not at all ideal, in terms of encouraging kids to be all that they can be. We just have not evolved there yet as a society, to create that ideal.
i don't think we will ever reach an 'ideal'...but as long as we are always trying for the 'ideal'....i think we are on the right course. society, parenting and education in general has changed/developed in leaps and bounds in only the past 50 years alone...and it is difficult at best for school systems with the care of educating millions of children in less than ideal environments to keep pace and do the very best for EVERY student. however, i still believe an authority/based environment is a fair model...b/c when the REAL world abandons an authoritative model will be when education should abandon it too...and our society is NO where near that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. if anything, our society and school system is FAR more advanced and accepting of fre-thought moreso than EVER before in the history of our public school system, so that to me signifies at least TRYing to keep pace with the desire of the society as a collective.
i don't think we will ever reach an 'ideal'...but as long as we are always trying for the 'ideal'....i think we are on the right course. society, parenting and education in general has changed/developed in leaps and bounds in only the past 50 years alone...and it is difficult at best for school systems with the care of educating millions of children in less than ideal environments to keep pace and do the very best for EVERY student. however, i still believe an authority/based environment is a fair model...b/c when the REAL world abandons an authoritative model will be when education should abandon it too...and our society is NO where near that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. if anything, our society and school system is FAR more advanced and accepting of fre-thought moreso than EVER before in the history of our public school system, so that to me signifies at least TRYing to keep pace with the desire of the society as a collective.
We are not yet in a place where we have generated school systems that enable a healthy unfolding of self--nor are we there yet in families to do so.
I see it as a vicious circle of authority and that the cycles keep repeating.
I personally have found ways to detach my children from the effects of the system. They have gone through it, but they are outside of it because we have learned what was necessary to remain true to our own respective visions. They know how to work systems and structures, while being independent thinkers. Others find their own way to do so, some through the system as we have, and others through alternatives such as home-schooling and the Montessori systems.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
There's me giving you a compliment, and you turn it around in an almost nasty way. No, parents do not turn out drones, schools do, or at least they used to. Good parents contribute to the education of theri children, poor ones rely on the system and bitch about poor results.
Next time I feel like directing a nice comment to you, I won't bother !!
Twasnt as much a response to you, as it was taking your kind words and referring them back to the OP who thinks mindless drones are the fault of the schools. Sorry if I didnt make myself clear. I rarely do. My gifts are with images, not words. Sorry. Please feel free to compliment me anytime.
We are not yet in a place where we have generated school systems that enable a healthy unfolding of self--nor are we there yet in families to do so.
I see it as a vicious circle of authority and that the cycles keep repeating.
I personally have found ways to detach my children from the effects of the system. They have gone through it, but they are outside of it because we have learned what was necessary to remain true to our own respective visions. They know how to work systems and structures, while being independent thinkers. Others find their own way to do so, some through the system as we have, and others through alternatives such as home-schooling and the Montessori systems.
and how do they deal with functioning in the current 'system's out in the adult world? the world of careers? one needs to develop themselves for themselves...but also to be an active, participating member of society as well. it's all balance, and as in most things...there is no one right way. bottomline, imho, when tryint to educate MILLIONs of students, ALL with varying learning styles and abilities...all within a group learning environemtn, it is all about trying to find balance to reach the most...and try and get the individual help for those who need more outisde the group classroom structure. there are 'ideals' to be striven for, and then there is the reality of what is...and one must find the best they can do in such a structure/system...for the benefit of most. and absolutely, i FULLY support home-schooling, montessori schools, charter schools and any/all alternative systems...but in the general public school systems, basically have to try and follow the model to benefit the most, the greatest good, etc.
i think it is VERY possible to be taught in a public school system and FULLY develop as an independent thinker....AND fully participate in being a member of society as well. thankfully, i think most do....and some, need a bit more outside of that. it is finding what works for each individual that is the trick, and absolutely...the public school classroom model may NOT be the right environment for everyone....but for serving the largest group of students, it seems the *best* for lack of a better term, system we have to serve such a large # of students, and it is continually under revision and improvement...and always will be.
You were very lucky then, or you didn't talk back.
My son is very respectful and yet he has been taught and encouraged to question things, by me, and numerous times teachers have gotten upset and responded inappropriately to his questions, expecting submission to authority.
I was muscled out of the school system at age 16 for "insubordination", because I disagreed with a teacher.
Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."
Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."
yikes. I question anyone who calls a child a "brat".
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."
I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
btw - one last thought for the evening on this subject...anyone who considers students to be encouraged to be 'mindless drones''....just needs to step foot in just about ANY kindergarten class today. yep, kindergarten...since while many dismiss this class/grade as glorified play/babysitting., it actually sets up a model for almost ALL future learning in a group environment. i was an art teacher, but i interacted/shared with my collegues regularly, and each visited each others' classrooms regularly...and i can attest to the dynamic, free-thinking environments...at this young age level. i know the idea of 'centers of learning'...with different stations set up with various learning actiivites at each, where students may freely roam at their own pace between........was used actively and regularly...and i could go on and on, at progressive learning levels, to deomonstrate anything but merely a pure, authoritative model of learning. for anyone i encourage them to spend time in a public school classroom, talk with educators....see what's going on. lots always to improive, but yes, a great deal is being done *right*...right now as well.
to the post above - btw - i would say more than likely, you were expected to sacrifice your own 'purposes' for the greater good of the GROUP learning environment more than the 'system'...so yes, perhaps you would have been better served in a home-school and/or alternative system...b/c yes, the GREATER good of the GROUP learning environment has to trump the individual b/c there are anywhere from 20 to 30 students in any one classroom who all need to be LEARNING...so sadly, perhaps some students have difficulty in such an environment, so other situations need to be embraced for such....but that's not the 'system' but merely the dynamics of group-learning. again, not ideal...but the *best* we have right now to educate the largest group of students at a given time.
I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.
Uhhh... pretty much everybody does that. Sometimes you gotta submit to "arbitrary" authority for the good of the masses. It's how civilization works.
Personal responsibility. Grasp this idea! What is so hard about going to school, writing a damn paper, doing some math problems, and running a science experiment? If you can't do that without pissing the teacher off than you need to grow up. GROW UP. I'm tired of these sob stories about teachers and adults who "didn't understand me." What is there to even disagree about in school that is so important? Math is math. Science is science. You can disagree about the meaning of literature and I doubt most teachers would care. School is temporary. My attitude was always get in and get out. School is just a hoop to jump through. Grades don't mean shit out in the real world. Finally, if your kid is in trouble at school tell him or her to learn how to deal with it because that is life. Stop trying to tailor everything to your kids, then they won't have to work at all.
There are no drones, just people who don't feel the need to overanalyze everything to death!
I would not "subordinate" myself to the teacher, as was the stated reason for the muscling out of the system I endured. I had my own purposes that were not valued. I was expected to sacrifice them for the system.
Could you provide some examples, because I never once felt like I had to sacrifice anything for the system. I cannot even think of a situation where I would have been expected to.
Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."
I was harrassed and persecuted out of school for havibg a questioning mind, for wanting to understand all the teaching in the context of all I knew and was being taught, not content to just re-gurgitate. I was harrasssed out of my first career training attempt for the same reason. Labelled a brat plenty of times, I was not. Young, restless, curious, smartarse definitely.
One teacher in particular made it her mission to force me into the box. Ironically in my last full year I was failing her subject, English, while toppng the academic stream class in German and science, go figure. Sure I did not handle that conflict very well, and I fought her tooth and nail, but hey, I was just a kid, I should not have had a fight on my hands at all.
UNiverstiy was much more fun, an inquiring questioning mind was welcome there.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Personal responsibility. Grasp this idea! What is so hard about going to school, writing a damn paper, doing some math problems, and running a science experiment? If you can't do that without pissing the teacher off than you need to grow up. GROW UP. I'm tired of these sob stories about teachers and adults who "didn't understand me." What is there to even disagree about in school that is so important? Math is math. Science is science. You can disagree about the meaning of literature and I doubt most teachers would care. School is temporary. My attitude was always get in and get out. School is just a hoop to jump through. Grades don't mean shit out in the real world. Finally, if your kid is in trouble at school tell him or her to learn how to deal with it because that is life. Stop trying to tailor everything to your kids, then they won't have to work at all.
There are no drones, just people who don't feel the need to overanalyze everything to death!
Personal responsibilty is the idea I'm grasping. The notion that a person should be responsible for themselves instead of having way too much authority act responsible for you.
Did you read the link I posted a few pages back? It explains the problems I see within the school system quite well and is written by an awarding winning teacher no less. It doesn't have anything to do with pissing off the teachers and inability to do school work. It is about principle and being able to build independency. If you disgree then fine but drop this over the top, angry guy shit you pull in every post.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.
Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.
"My Cadillac's sittin in the back, it isn't me, I'm going home in my Galaxy"
S. Hoon
"My body's nobody's body but mine. You run your own body, let me run mine" Chicago '95
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.
I was an honors student but it's always fun to make these assumptions, eh?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.
Comments
On the other hand, the whole purpose behind a Montessori type of school is to enable our children to learn to independently think, and to lead their own lives and make their own way.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
and even in a montessori school enviromnment, there IS structure....b/c to have anything in a group environment, some structure, and yes respect for authority...is necessary. and quite honestly, as mentioned, to function in this world...some degree of respect for one's self and for others...and being able to function, adapt and thrive...individually and as part of a group...it is necessary to have some degree of structure.
i think some really need to revisit classrooms TODAY. as i said, i am by no means saying our school systems are beyond improvement...but they absolutely encourage independent thinking, creativity...and yea, no mindless drones. if your school system does not, well then...fight for what should be available for your students because the current models more often than not DO encourage individual thought. i know this, firsthand.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
My son is still in school, and I've personally had to call out teachers numerous times in these past few years. And these teachers have backed down when presented with adult reasoning as to their human-fallibility. Teachers use "authority" to "win" without fairness and reason, but when they face an equal adult with reasoning, the blanket authority rule does not hold up. There is always room for improvement. And honestly, the systems are filled with holes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
it doea seem some have at least insinuated it is to some degree 'bad'.....that's all. i also don't suggest it's all 'good' but rather, what is necessary in a climate where you have a group that needs to learn. the classroom dynamics being that you will have gifted students, challenged students and everyone inbetween, with standards to be met...it is a challenge to say the least to try and accommodate the whole gamut of learning styles.
and yes of course, i am by no means suggesting our current system is perfect, nor that all teachers do all they can. however, the task should fall equally on both teachers and parents alike to FULLY educate every student, b/c a student needs to be encouraged at home as well as in the classroom.....as the saying goes...it takes a village.......
btw - going back to an earlier comment...i do not believe a school needs to be a 'democratic' environment, not in the least. i do believe in an authoritative environment, but one that is FULLY based on re3spect for ALL individuals. however, easpecially at the elementary level, i think it's important for students to have authority figures for guidance, and they do not need to be given huge choice to be able to learn and thrive. even most home environments are NOT based on democratic models....and i do not believe in all instances that democracy is always the right choice. it IS more than poissible to have an authoritative environment that has mutual respect for learners and educators...but yes, one does set the tone, and the others respect that environment for the greater good of the learning community. many may disagree with me there...and that's a-ok. not saying it';s the only 'right' way, but from my decade in the classroom and my personal education, imho, it does seem the overall best environment for learning for the group to all have a chance to learn. even in my most 'open' learning environments at the graduate level, there still was always some degree of deference/respect for the authority/wisdom of the teacher/professor.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
There's me giving you a compliment, and you turn it around in an almost nasty way. No, parents do not turn out drones, schools do, or at least they used to. Good parents contribute to the education of theri children, poor ones rely on the system and bitch about poor results.
Next time I feel like directing a nice comment to you, I won't bother !!
I think overall the system is not at all ideal, in terms of encouraging kids to be all that they can be. We just have not evolved there yet as a society, to create that ideal. It is what it is. I agree with Abook that the system as is encourages following authority.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i don't think we will ever reach an 'ideal'...but as long as we are always trying for the 'ideal'....i think we are on the right course. society, parenting and education in general has changed/developed in leaps and bounds in only the past 50 years alone...and it is difficult at best for school systems with the care of educating millions of children in less than ideal environments to keep pace and do the very best for EVERY student. however, i still believe an authority/based environment is a fair model...b/c when the REAL world abandons an authoritative model will be when education should abandon it too...and our society is NO where near that, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing in the least. if anything, our society and school system is FAR more advanced and accepting of fre-thought moreso than EVER before in the history of our public school system, so that to me signifies at least TRYing to keep pace with the desire of the society as a collective.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
And this is from an award winning teacher:
http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html?seenIEPage=1
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I see it as a vicious circle of authority and that the cycles keep repeating.
I personally have found ways to detach my children from the effects of the system. They have gone through it, but they are outside of it because we have learned what was necessary to remain true to our own respective visions. They know how to work systems and structures, while being independent thinkers. Others find their own way to do so, some through the system as we have, and others through alternatives such as home-schooling and the Montessori systems.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
www.myspace.com/jensvad
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
and how do they deal with functioning in the current 'system's out in the adult world? the world of careers? one needs to develop themselves for themselves...but also to be an active, participating member of society as well. it's all balance, and as in most things...there is no one right way. bottomline, imho, when tryint to educate MILLIONs of students, ALL with varying learning styles and abilities...all within a group learning environemtn, it is all about trying to find balance to reach the most...and try and get the individual help for those who need more outisde the group classroom structure. there are 'ideals' to be striven for, and then there is the reality of what is...and one must find the best they can do in such a structure/system...for the benefit of most. and absolutely, i FULLY support home-schooling, montessori schools, charter schools and any/all alternative systems...but in the general public school systems, basically have to try and follow the model to benefit the most, the greatest good, etc.
i think it is VERY possible to be taught in a public school system and FULLY develop as an independent thinker....AND fully participate in being a member of society as well. thankfully, i think most do....and some, need a bit more outside of that. it is finding what works for each individual that is the trick, and absolutely...the public school classroom model may NOT be the right environment for everyone....but for serving the largest group of students, it seems the *best* for lack of a better term, system we have to serve such a large # of students, and it is continually under revision and improvement...and always will be.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Maybe you don't want to admit it now, but you were probably a brat. Than again, feel free to explain the situation in full. I'm sure it wasn't so simple as "disagreeing with the teacher."
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
to the post above - btw - i would say more than likely, you were expected to sacrifice your own 'purposes' for the greater good of the GROUP learning environment more than the 'system'...so yes, perhaps you would have been better served in a home-school and/or alternative system...b/c yes, the GREATER good of the GROUP learning environment has to trump the individual b/c there are anywhere from 20 to 30 students in any one classroom who all need to be LEARNING...so sadly, perhaps some students have difficulty in such an environment, so other situations need to be embraced for such....but that's not the 'system' but merely the dynamics of group-learning. again, not ideal...but the *best* we have right now to educate the largest group of students at a given time.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Uhhh... pretty much everybody does that. Sometimes you gotta submit to "arbitrary" authority for the good of the masses. It's how civilization works.
edit:
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
There are no drones, just people who don't feel the need to overanalyze everything to death!
Could you provide some examples, because I never once felt like I had to sacrifice anything for the system. I cannot even think of a situation where I would have been expected to.
I was harrassed and persecuted out of school for havibg a questioning mind, for wanting to understand all the teaching in the context of all I knew and was being taught, not content to just re-gurgitate. I was harrasssed out of my first career training attempt for the same reason. Labelled a brat plenty of times, I was not. Young, restless, curious, smartarse definitely.
One teacher in particular made it her mission to force me into the box. Ironically in my last full year I was failing her subject, English, while toppng the academic stream class in German and science, go figure. Sure I did not handle that conflict very well, and I fought her tooth and nail, but hey, I was just a kid, I should not have had a fight on my hands at all.
UNiverstiy was much more fun, an inquiring questioning mind was welcome there.
Personal responsibilty is the idea I'm grasping. The notion that a person should be responsible for themselves instead of having way too much authority act responsible for you.
Did you read the link I posted a few pages back? It explains the problems I see within the school system quite well and is written by an awarding winning teacher no less. It doesn't have anything to do with pissing off the teachers and inability to do school work. It is about principle and being able to build independency. If you disgree then fine but drop this over the top, angry guy shit you pull in every post.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Not even Bush?
Yup, I disagree. Young kids need structure. As they get older they are given opportunities to think and act for themselves. Most good schools and educators provide this. As kids get older they have more opportunities to "find" themselves, and this is what college is all about; open minds, free thinking, and sharing ideas. How do you suggest we educate the youth of the world? You sound like somebody who got bad grades and disrupted and disrespected those who were there to educate and those who were there to learn.
S. Hoon
"My body's nobody's body but mine. You run your own body, let me run mine" Chicago '95
Franken '08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn6nqd-nCko
I was an honors student but it's always fun to make these assumptions, eh?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Not even Bush unfortunately.
Structure is fine, oppression is not !!
And I'm a Nobel Prize winner!?!? I didn't think I was making an assumption based on your previous posts, specifically the broad generalizations.
S. Hoon
"My body's nobody's body but mine. You run your own body, let me run mine" Chicago '95
Franken '08