Human Behavior Experiments

Abookamongstthemany

A documentary on humans obedience to authority

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=8499890276327837594&hl=en&autoplay

Ahnimus

Excellent! Thank you Abook.

baraka

I remember learning about this in college along with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

A very interesting book is, 'The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil'

http://www.zimbardo.com/current.html

Edit: I just got to the part of the video that talks about the Stanford prison experiment & Phillip Zimbardo.

Abookamongstthemany

I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.

El_Kabong

is competition, not coexistance...

no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat

prism

El_Kabong wrote:

is competition, not coexistance...

no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat

exactly...you hit the nail on the head. it's almost always the "other person's" problem to help their neighbor or someone in need. :( this documentary points this out very well

ProvidenceHunter

El_Kabong wrote:

is competition, not coexistance...

no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat

dude what are you talking about? "overall we don't care about our neighbor" you must live in a shitty community.

people help each other all the time, but I guess because the government is not forcing them to it is not enough for you?

and one more thing competition and coexistance are not mutually exclusive.

gue_barium

Thanks for the video abook. Excellent!

This brings me back to the debates on Abu Gharaib on this board when it first came out, and I'll be damned...against the general consensus here, that I was on target back then.

Motherfuckers.

gue_barium

prism wrote:

exactly...you hit the nail on the head. it's almost always the "other person's" problem to help their neighbor or someone in need. :( this documentary points this out very well

Maybe, probably, in a real general sense this is part of what goes into our modern way of life,
however,
this study is very much about the nature of Obedience. And the baseline for behavior in an extreme environment, such as prison.

That McDonalds story at the beginning is off the charts. I have no idea what that's about. That's just more weird than the prison studies. To me.

bootlegger10

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. .

So each student is going to get a personal teacher to teach them when the student "feels" like learning math or english? How do you suggest teaching the thousands of kids in New York math or english without having classes and a schedule? I'd love to hear this. You think kids are going to want to learn math, english, and science? Some might be interested, but I bet the average kid just wants to play out in the yard or play video games. They need discipline and a schedule that a school provides to force them to learn things that they would not otherwise learn unless they were homeschooled.

Honestly, I do not know what there is left for you to complain about. "Oh no, they made the kid sit in a chair and learn for 45 minutes about math, and then made him leave before he finished his homework."

PaperPlates

Not too sure where these two went to school, or if they have kids currently in school, but I was taught A LOT more then what they are under the impression kids learn, and my daughter is CERTAINLY learning a lot more than the description these two misinformed posters describe. Sharing, teamwork, linear thinking, cooperation, are all things taught and learned in schools, through the very things they are berating. School sports is an integral part of learning many important things. Competition is not a bad thing, and striving to be the best you can be is a bad idea since when?

I have to wonder aloud just what they thought people/kids would be like with ZERO "obedience to authority". They call those kids............ brats.

Ahnimus

Well that is an interesting topic to get into paperplates.

See, I think a certain understanding of our abilities is important. I like the way Steven Covey puts it in his book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. That is that some things are beyond our control, but not beyond our influence, and other things are beyond both. Meanwhile, our concern is invariably much greater than either. So, it's important to identify what we can control, what we can influence and what we cannot. It seems to me that 'brats' don't know that much of what they are attempting to control/influence is beyond them, or they are approaching it in an unrealistic way.

School definitely teaches a lot more than obedience to authority. But it does give a strong conditioning of not questioning authority. I mean, it's reasonable to question and influence authority outside of school. So to me it's a bad way of doing it, but on the other hand, a child doesn't rationalize the same.

It's really a rough topic to me, neither black nor white.

PaperPlates

Ahnimus wrote:

Well that is an interesting topic to get into paperplates.

See, I think a certain understanding of our abilities is important. I like the way Steven Covey puts it in his book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. That is that some things are beyond our control, but not beyond our influence, and other things are beyond both. Meanwhile, our concern is invariably much greater than either. So, it's important to identify what we can control, what we can influence and what we cannot. It seems to me that 'brats' don't know that much of what they are attempting to control/influence is beyond them, or they are approaching it in an unrealistic way.

School definitely teaches a lot more than obedience to authority. But it does give a strong conditioning of not questioning authority. I mean, it's reasonable to question and influence authority outside of school. So to me it's a bad way of doing it, but on the other hand, a child doesn't rationalize the same.

It's really a rough topic to me, neither black nor white.

Depends on the teacher really. Its not as tho "obedience at all costs" is listed in the cirriculum. I had many teachers, from middle school through high school to a few professors, who not only allowed, but encouraged thinking outside the box, welcomed well thought out "opposing opinions", and actually rewarded those who intelligently questioned authority.

Also depends on your (not you but a generic "you") definition of conditioning to follow authority, and on your definition of questioning authority. If the bad kid who distracts the class, puts no effort nor shows any desire to learn is punished or treated in a manner that fits the phrase " conditioned towards obedience to authority", does that child not deserve, or even NEED to learn a little obedience? Without a respect for authority, that child will never stand a chance either economically, socially, nor emotionally of being able to deal in the real world. Everyone answers to some form of authority. Questioning authority simply for the sake of doing so, isnt productive, nor is it of any benefit to anyone involved. Its simply being a smartass.

Ahnimus

PaperPlates wrote:

Depends on the teacher really. Its not as tho "obedience at all costs" is listed in the cirriculum. I had many teachers, from middle school through high school to a few professors, who not only allowed, but encouraged thinking outside the box, welcomed well thought out "opposing opinions", and actually rewarded those who intelligently questioned authority.

Also depends on your (not you but a generic "you") definition of conditioning to follow authority, and on your definition of questioning authority. If the bad kid who distracts the class, puts no effort nor shows any desire to learn is punished or treated in a manner that fits the phrase " conditioned towards obedience to authority", does that child not deserve, or even NEED to learn a little obedience? Without a respect for authority, that child will never stand a chance either economically, socially, nor emotionally of being able to deal in the real world. Everyone answers to some form of authority. Questioning authority simply for the sake of doing so, isnt productive, nor is it of any benefit to anyone involved. Its simply being a smartass.

I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.

PaperPlates

Ahnimus wrote:

I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.

Unfortunately, (for some) you cannot police nor enforce issues with individual parenting choices.

IF schools were as a policy approaching eduction in such a manner, then as tax payers we could certainly object to that. That said, I dont believe for one minute that the majority of kids in our country are taught this way.

Ahnimus

PaperPlates wrote:

Unfortunately, (for some) you cannot police nor enforce issues with individual parenting choices.

IF schools were as a policy approaching eduction in such a manner, then as tax payers we could certainly object to that. That said, I dont believe for one minute that the majority of kids in our country are taught this way.

I think it depends on the teacher-student relation. It should really be that teachers make more effort to have good relationships with students.

It seems apparent to me by the republicans that this kind of thinking "Just do as you are told" is quite popular. You know "beware the logic of man" and "God works in mysterious ways" type stuff.

Abookamongstthemany

bootlegger10 wrote:

So each student is going to get a personal teacher to teach them when the student "feels" like learning math or english? How do you suggest teaching the thousands of kids in New York math or english without having classes and a schedule? I'd love to hear this. You think kids are going to want to learn math, english, and science? Some might be interested, but I bet the average kid just wants to play out in the yard or play video games. They need discipline and a schedule that a school provides to force them to learn things that they would not otherwise learn unless they were homeschooled.

Honestly, I do not know what there is left for you to complain about. "Oh no, they made the kid sit in a chair and learn for 45 minutes about math, and then made him leave before he finished his homework."

Homeschooling or Montessori are both tangible alternatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori

And I complain just as much as you complain yourself...it just happens to be about different things.

Abookamongstthemany

PaperPlates wrote:

Not too sure where these two went to school, or if they have kids currently in school, but I was taught A LOT more then what they are under the impression kids learn, and my daughter is CERTAINLY learning a lot more than the description these two misinformed posters describe. Sharing, teamwork, linear thinking, cooperation, are all things taught and learned in schools, through the very things they are berating. School sports is an integral part of learning many important things. Competition is not a bad thing, and striving to be the best you can be is a bad idea since when?

I have to wonder aloud just what they thought people/kids would be like with ZERO "obedience to authority". They call those kids............ brats.

Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.

And since when does one need school to participate in sports?? Parents teach children to share and cooperate as well as an active community life.

PaperPlates

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.

And since when does one need school to participate in sports?? Parents teach children to share and cooperate as well as an active community life.

Noone said you need school to participate in sports.

And I agree, some parents do teach sharing, and coop, just as some teachers do.

In case I missed the point of all this, what exactly is your "beef" in this particular thread? Slow day in the war room?

Abookamongstthemany

PaperPlates wrote:

Noone said you need school to participate in sports.

And I agree, some parents do teach sharing, and coop, just as some teachers do.

In case I missed the point of all this, what exactly is your "beef" in this particular thread? Slow day in the war room?

I stated my beef....that the current schooling system we have is conditioning children to be mindless drones who never question anything or stand up to authority when it is clearly not working in their interests. People acts so helpless and lost throughout life....it's everywhere.

PaperPlates

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I stated my beef....that the current schooling system we have is conditioning children to be mindless drones who never question anything or stand up to authority when it is clearly not working in their interests. People acts so helpless and lost throughout life....it's everywhere.

The current schooling system is conditioning children to be "mindless drones"? Really? My daughter is 7 and is already capable of more coherent thought and individualism than most on this board are. Product of good parenting in tandem with good schooling/teachers. Crazy idnt it?>\


Maybe the schools in your town suck, but thats not a product of the system as much as it is a product of the people your town is made up of. And i dont know that people act so "helpless and lost throughout life" "everywhere". Are you speaking for yourself, or the millions of Americans out there? Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you, but your claim of "mindless drones" is odd, to say the least.

And as far as the people who ARE "lost and helpless", that is a product of what they've created for themselves, not what was created or taught to them. Everyone creates their own reality.