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Human Behavior Experiments

AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
A documentary on humans obedience to authority

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=8499890276327837594&hl=en&autoplay
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Excellent! Thank you Abook.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    I remember learning about this in college along with this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    A very interesting book is, 'The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil'

    http://www.zimbardo.com/current.html

    Edit: I just got to the part of the video that talks about the Stanford prison experiment & Phillip Zimbardo.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • El_KabongEl_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    is competition, not coexistance...

    no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat
    standin above the crowd
    he had a voice that was strong and loud and
    i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
    eager to identify with
    someone above the crowd
    someone who seemed to feel the same
    someone prepared to lead the way
  • prismprism Posts: 2,440
    El_Kabong wrote:
    is competition, not coexistance...

    no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat


    exactly...you hit the nail on the head. it's almost always the "other person's" problem to help their neighbor or someone in need. :( this documentary points this out very well
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    angels share laughter
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
  • ProvidenceHunterProvidenceHunter Posts: 52
    El_Kabong wrote:
    is competition, not coexistance...

    no unity, no real community, just actions that are more self serving to move up, gain approval, get ahead... it's not about helping each other, overall we don't care about our neighbor, some only care enough to want more and better things than them... it's sad thinking the potential we have but it and our fellow wo/man takes a back seat


    dude what are you talking about? "overall we don't care about our neighbor" you must live in a shitty community.

    people help each other all the time, but I guess because the government is not forcing them to it is not enough for you?

    and one more thing competition and coexistance are not mutually exclusive.
    Peace through superior firepower!
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Thanks for the video abook. Excellent!

    This brings me back to the debates on Abu Gharaib on this board when it first came out, and I'll be damned...against the general consensus here, that I was on target back then.

    Motherfuckers.

    :)
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    prism wrote:
    exactly...you hit the nail on the head. it's almost always the "other person's" problem to help their neighbor or someone in need. :( this documentary points this out very well

    Maybe, probably, in a real general sense this is part of what goes into our modern way of life,
    however,
    this study is very much about the nature of Obedience. And the baseline for behavior in an extreme environment, such as prison.

    That McDonalds story at the beginning is off the charts. I have no idea what that's about. That's just more weird than the prison studies. To me.
    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • bootlegger10bootlegger10 Posts: 16,051
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. .

    So each student is going to get a personal teacher to teach them when the student "feels" like learning math or english? How do you suggest teaching the thousands of kids in New York math or english without having classes and a schedule? I'd love to hear this. You think kids are going to want to learn math, english, and science? Some might be interested, but I bet the average kid just wants to play out in the yard or play video games. They need discipline and a schedule that a school provides to force them to learn things that they would not otherwise learn unless they were homeschooled.

    Honestly, I do not know what there is left for you to complain about. "Oh no, they made the kid sit in a chair and learn for 45 minutes about math, and then made him leave before he finished his homework."
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Not too sure where these two went to school, or if they have kids currently in school, but I was taught A LOT more then what they are under the impression kids learn, and my daughter is CERTAINLY learning a lot more than the description these two misinformed posters describe. Sharing, teamwork, linear thinking, cooperation, are all things taught and learned in schools, through the very things they are berating. School sports is an integral part of learning many important things. Competition is not a bad thing, and striving to be the best you can be is a bad idea since when?

    I have to wonder aloud just what they thought people/kids would be like with ZERO "obedience to authority". They call those kids............ brats.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well that is an interesting topic to get into paperplates.

    See, I think a certain understanding of our abilities is important. I like the way Steven Covey puts it in his book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. That is that some things are beyond our control, but not beyond our influence, and other things are beyond both. Meanwhile, our concern is invariably much greater than either. So, it's important to identify what we can control, what we can influence and what we cannot. It seems to me that 'brats' don't know that much of what they are attempting to control/influence is beyond them, or they are approaching it in an unrealistic way.

    School definitely teaches a lot more than obedience to authority. But it does give a strong conditioning of not questioning authority. I mean, it's reasonable to question and influence authority outside of school. So to me it's a bad way of doing it, but on the other hand, a child doesn't rationalize the same.

    It's really a rough topic to me, neither black nor white.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Well that is an interesting topic to get into paperplates.

    See, I think a certain understanding of our abilities is important. I like the way Steven Covey puts it in his book The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. That is that some things are beyond our control, but not beyond our influence, and other things are beyond both. Meanwhile, our concern is invariably much greater than either. So, it's important to identify what we can control, what we can influence and what we cannot. It seems to me that 'brats' don't know that much of what they are attempting to control/influence is beyond them, or they are approaching it in an unrealistic way.

    School definitely teaches a lot more than obedience to authority. But it does give a strong conditioning of not questioning authority. I mean, it's reasonable to question and influence authority outside of school. So to me it's a bad way of doing it, but on the other hand, a child doesn't rationalize the same.

    It's really a rough topic to me, neither black nor white.

    Depends on the teacher really. Its not as tho "obedience at all costs" is listed in the cirriculum. I had many teachers, from middle school through high school to a few professors, who not only allowed, but encouraged thinking outside the box, welcomed well thought out "opposing opinions", and actually rewarded those who intelligently questioned authority.

    Also depends on your (not you but a generic "you") definition of conditioning to follow authority, and on your definition of questioning authority. If the bad kid who distracts the class, puts no effort nor shows any desire to learn is punished or treated in a manner that fits the phrase " conditioned towards obedience to authority", does that child not deserve, or even NEED to learn a little obedience? Without a respect for authority, that child will never stand a chance either economically, socially, nor emotionally of being able to deal in the real world. Everyone answers to some form of authority. Questioning authority simply for the sake of doing so, isnt productive, nor is it of any benefit to anyone involved. Its simply being a smartass.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    PaperPlates wrote:
    Depends on the teacher really. Its not as tho "obedience at all costs" is listed in the cirriculum. I had many teachers, from middle school through high school to a few professors, who not only allowed, but encouraged thinking outside the box, welcomed well thought out "opposing opinions", and actually rewarded those who intelligently questioned authority.

    Also depends on your (not you but a generic "you") definition of conditioning to follow authority, and on your definition of questioning authority. If the bad kid who distracts the class, puts no effort nor shows any desire to learn is punished or treated in a manner that fits the phrase " conditioned towards obedience to authority", does that child not deserve, or even NEED to learn a little obedience? Without a respect for authority, that child will never stand a chance either economically, socially, nor emotionally of being able to deal in the real world. Everyone answers to some form of authority. Questioning authority simply for the sake of doing so, isnt productive, nor is it of any benefit to anyone involved. Its simply being a smartass.

    I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.


    Unfortunately, (for some) you cannot police nor enforce issues with individual parenting choices.

    IF schools were as a policy approaching eduction in such a manner, then as tax payers we could certainly object to that. That said, I dont believe for one minute that the majority of kids in our country are taught this way.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    PaperPlates wrote:
    Unfortunately, (for some) you cannot police nor enforce issues with individual parenting choices.

    IF schools were as a policy approaching eduction in such a manner, then as tax payers we could certainly object to that. That said, I dont believe for one minute that the majority of kids in our country are taught this way.

    I think it depends on the teacher-student relation. It should really be that teachers make more effort to have good relationships with students.

    It seems apparent to me by the republicans that this kind of thinking "Just do as you are told" is quite popular. You know "beware the logic of man" and "God works in mysterious ways" type stuff.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    So each student is going to get a personal teacher to teach them when the student "feels" like learning math or english? How do you suggest teaching the thousands of kids in New York math or english without having classes and a schedule? I'd love to hear this. You think kids are going to want to learn math, english, and science? Some might be interested, but I bet the average kid just wants to play out in the yard or play video games. They need discipline and a schedule that a school provides to force them to learn things that they would not otherwise learn unless they were homeschooled.

    Honestly, I do not know what there is left for you to complain about. "Oh no, they made the kid sit in a chair and learn for 45 minutes about math, and then made him leave before he finished his homework."

    Homeschooling or Montessori are both tangible alternatives.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori

    And I complain just as much as you complain yourself...it just happens to be about different things.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    PaperPlates wrote:
    Not too sure where these two went to school, or if they have kids currently in school, but I was taught A LOT more then what they are under the impression kids learn, and my daughter is CERTAINLY learning a lot more than the description these two misinformed posters describe. Sharing, teamwork, linear thinking, cooperation, are all things taught and learned in schools, through the very things they are berating. School sports is an integral part of learning many important things. Competition is not a bad thing, and striving to be the best you can be is a bad idea since when?

    I have to wonder aloud just what they thought people/kids would be like with ZERO "obedience to authority". They call those kids............ brats.

    Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.

    And since when does one need school to participate in sports?? Parents teach children to share and cooperate as well as an active community life.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.

    And since when does one need school to participate in sports?? Parents teach children to share and cooperate as well as an active community life.


    Noone said you need school to participate in sports.

    And I agree, some parents do teach sharing, and coop, just as some teachers do.

    In case I missed the point of all this, what exactly is your "beef" in this particular thread? Slow day in the war room? ;)
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • AbookamongstthemanyAbookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    PaperPlates wrote:
    Noone said you need school to participate in sports.

    And I agree, some parents do teach sharing, and coop, just as some teachers do.

    In case I missed the point of all this, what exactly is your "beef" in this particular thread? Slow day in the war room? ;)


    I stated my beef....that the current schooling system we have is conditioning children to be mindless drones who never question anything or stand up to authority when it is clearly not working in their interests. People acts so helpless and lost throughout life....it's everywhere.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I stated my beef....that the current schooling system we have is conditioning children to be mindless drones who never question anything or stand up to authority when it is clearly not working in their interests. People acts so helpless and lost throughout life....it's everywhere.


    The current schooling system is conditioning children to be "mindless drones"? Really? My daughter is 7 and is already capable of more coherent thought and individualism than most on this board are. Product of good parenting in tandem with good schooling/teachers. Crazy idnt it?>\


    Maybe the schools in your town suck, but thats not a product of the system as much as it is a product of the people your town is made up of. And i dont know that people act so "helpless and lost throughout life" "everywhere". Are you speaking for yourself, or the millions of Americans out there? Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you, but your claim of "mindless drones" is odd, to say the least.

    And as far as the people who ARE "lost and helpless", that is a product of what they've created for themselves, not what was created or taught to them. Everyone creates their own reality.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • Alex_CoeAlex_Coe Posts: 762
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.


    I like what you're saying, but remember: There's certain;ly some impressionable 12 year old out there who will watch this documentary and all of the sudden he will feel justified in doing whatever the hell he wants. Kids are way too immature to understand this. If you tell a fifth grader you don't have to obey arbitrary authority, he'll refuse to obey any authority. Everyone has to be really mature with this kind of experiment. It's almost dangerous information. Kids in general are too impressionable to be told "watch out for the authorities." I think the only people mature enough to watch this stuff are kids 15+ (oh what a coincidence, I'm just old enough.) :rollseyes:
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Obedience comes with respect not just because that's the rule. If you leave out the reasoning for the rules and demand respect where it is not earned, it teaches a child nothing but that rules don't have to make sense, just be followed. And that produces a society who just accepts whatever power and authority tell them instead of demanding sense be made behind these decisions and laws.
    Very nice, Abook! :)

    There are some kids who cannot accept blind authority that goes against their inner perception and awareness. Personality typing charts people with this particular type of intelligence. They have the potential to be our independent thinkers and the creators of our systems. They get punished, ostracised and shamed for going against the grain in the school system. This type of shaming/blaming can and does cause many to become social dropouts, due to the "insanity" of society. This causes myriad problems--running the gamut from addiction to mental illness and seemingly endless "disorders" in between.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Alex_CoeAlex_Coe Posts: 762
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I think conditioning is needed. But not in the sense that parents/teachers often use. "Don't talk back", "Just do as you are told", etc.. this is a kind of conditioning that prevents any questioning of authority. Often children will ask "Why is that true?" and the response "Don't talk back." that is the part I take issue with.


    That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Alex_Coe wrote:
    That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.

    That's because you weren't me ;)
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Alex_Coe wrote:
    That's not an issue of arbitrary authority. That's just a lazy teacher. Only once have I ever had a teacher that ignorant.
    You were very lucky then, or you didn't talk back.

    My son is very respectful and yet he has been taught and encouraged to question things, by me, and numerous times teachers have gotten upset and responded inappropriately to his questions, expecting submission to authority.

    I was muscled out of the school system at age 16 for "insubordination", because I disagreed with a teacher.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I think it's funny that children inevitably go into that stage where they keep asking "But why?"

    "Can you please take the garbage out?"

    "but why?"

    "because someone needs to take it out and I'm busy."

    "But why?"

    "because it will decompose and start to stink if it isn't taken out"

    "But why?"

    "Because microorganisms called bacteria will accumulate and decompose the garbage"

    "But why?"

    "Shut up and take the garbage out"
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I know many will disagree quite strongly but I believe schooling enforces this behavior of obedience. That's the most you really learn from school and the conditioning that comes along with it. You learn to always be on time, to follow rules and orders without question and only speak when you're allowed. Questioning is taught as disrespect. Children are made to sit for hours on end with children of the same age to learn the same things and as soon as a bell rings they have to forget all about what they were doing and move on to the next thing they are ordered to do. There is no way for the child to say 'no teacher, I'd really like to finish my poem first while I have my mind on it.' Children are taught that concentration isn't as important and a well manufactured schedule. They have no access to the wisdom of the older people in their communities. They only learn to follow...what they will to do is irrelevent almost always. With people being conditioned in such a way as early as the age of 4, there is no wonder they lose identity and strong will...it's the same as obedience traing for pets. And it's everyone...everybody is schooled. That's why our society is complacent and apathetc...they have never learned how to deal with problems and look out for themselves as a whole...as the people of this country...they only know to follow orders to earn a check so they can 'get by' . Don't rock the boat or expect more out of life, demand more, we know what's best for you and your helpless to change it anyways. Raise children to function like a herd and they will act like a damn herd.

    I like this post, it has a lot in there which I sympathise wiht, being a total school failure because teh system did not care about teaching me, just about keeping me in my box.
    But I also thought paperplates response was very valid. She seems to be getting good schooling for her kiblets. MAybe the systems are changeing. I certainly see plenty of kids these days who have great teachers adn love school, maybe she got lucky.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    PaperPlates wrote:
    The current schooling system is conditioning children to be "mindless drones"? Really? My daughter is 7 and is already capable of more coherent thought and individualism than most on this board are. Product of good parenting in tandem with good schooling/teachers. Crazy idnt it?>\


    Maybe the schools in your town suck, but thats not a product of the system as much as it is a product of the people your town is made up of. And i dont know that people act so "helpless and lost throughout life" "everywhere". Are you speaking for yourself, or the millions of Americans out there? Sorry if I seem to be jumping on you, but your claim of "mindless drones" is odd, to say the least.

    And as far as the people who ARE "lost and helpless", that is a product of what they've created for themselves, not what was created or taught to them. Everyone creates their own reality.

    MAybe you are giving the school credit whoch more desercedly should go to you. MAybe your preparation of children for school is enabling them to get theses things from it.
    I certianbkly have failed out of both school and employment because I just could not become a midless drone. Fortunately I stumbled into a career where I am able to combine individuality with achievement.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • decides2dreamdecides2dream Posts: 14,977
    i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.


    no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.


    i do agree with whomever mentioned the overall need for some form of sturcture and discipline in a formal learning environment, only b/c when you have 25 to 30 kids in a classroom, some degree of structure is necessary for the greater good of the class. in an 'ideal world' students could be taught individually, then soicalized within groups...but in reality, that has never been the case.

    someone too mentioned that throughout our lives we DO need to learn to adapt to authority b/c let's face it, most of us do work full-time...and for someone else...so to have socialization/respect for others serves us all well. it IS possible to respect authority to some degree while still maintaining a strong sense of autonomy...and function well independently AND as a social member of society.

    i am by no means suggesting our current system is *ideal*...however, i do believe that it's at the best it's ever been to balance a sense of self and a sense of community...a balance of indivudual and group....etc. and let's face it...parents play a pivotal role in a child's view of their own education and how they learn...and encouyraging them to excel, believe in themselves and balance their lives. i sufggest spending some time in a classroom today before passing judgement. i for one was very proud of my classroom environemtn and felt the bulk of my collegues always put the student's needs first, always....and encouraged EACH student to their full potential....yes, within a structured classroom environment.


    btw - sheesh, please excuse my terrible typos.....:o...tis no reflection on me beyond i never learned to type properly and thus am a dyslexic typist. :p haha.
    Stay with me...
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    I am myself like you somehow


  • PaperPlatesPaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    lucylespian wrote:
    MAybe you are giving the school credit whoch more desercedly should go to you. MAybe your preparation of children for school is enabling them to get theses things from it.
    I certianbkly have failed out of both school and employment because I just could not become a midless drone. Fortunately I stumbled into a career where I am able to combine individuality with achievement.

    So, then parents are more responsible for churning out "mindless drones", than the school system is. :)
    decides2dream wrote:
    i have to say as a former educator, the idea of teaching students to be drones...i take strong issue with. most of my collegues, and myself, worked VERY hard to encourage creativity, develop a strong sense of self....and to develop critical thinking skills. granted i live and taught in NY state schools, we test on average quite high, ou school systems are rated quite well, and the area i live in consistently is rated in the top 10 school's systems in the nation...so don't know exactly how much that comes into play.


    no matter what, looking at past educational models and classrooms of today and i would have to say that today's model encourages individuality, critical thinking skills and independent thought WAY more than ever before in our country's educational history.


    i do agree with whomever mentioned the overall need for some form of sturcture and discipline in a formal learning environment, only b/c when you have 25 to 30 kids in a classroom, some degree of structure is necessary for the greater good of the class. in an 'ideal world' students could be taught individually, then soicalized within groups...but in reality, that has never been the case.

    someone too mentioned that throughout our lives we DO need to learn to adapt to authority b/c let's face it, most of us do work full-time...and for someone else...so to have socialization/respect for others serves us all well. it IS possible to respect authority to some degree while still maintaining a strong sense of autonomy...and function well independently AND as a social member of society.

    i am by no means suggesting our current system is *ideal*...however, i do believe that it's at the best it's ever been to balance a sense of self and a sense of community...a balance of indivudual and group....etc. and let's face it...parents play a pivotal role in a child's view of their own education and how they learn...and encouyraging them to excel, believe in themselves and balance their lives. i sufggest spending some time in a classroom today before passing judgement. i for one was very proud of my classroom environemtn and felt the bulk of my collegues always put the student's needs first, always....and encouraged EACH student to their full potential....yes, within a structured classroom environment.

    Structure for kids. What a novel concept.


    Well put D2D. :)
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