Do You Smell It??????

farfromglorified

rearviewmiror wrote:

Too bad. Welcome to America. I bet you didnt mind using the roads that taxes paid for. The schools they paid for, that helped you make the money that you complain about being taxed.

It is so arrogant of people to stand on the shoulders of giants and then deny the collective effort that got them there once they have the pice of the pie they want.

And what is it to demand payment as a collective based only on the argument that you exist, therefore you're entitled to it?

Cree Nations

rearviewmiror wrote:

Too bad. Welcome to America. I bet you didnt mind using the roads that taxes paid for. The schools they paid for, that helped you make the money that you complain about being taxed.

It is so arrogant of people to stand on the shoulders of giants and then deny the collective effort that got them there once they have the pice of the pie they want.

It would be interesting to understand US politics from an Amish viewpoint, they basically do not use any of the 'services' that their taxes helped to pay for.

miller8966

RainDog wrote:

Not yet, anyway. It's coming, though. Once the country realizes that social issues aren't as important as more tangible ones, the Democrats will likely pick up more rural, blue collar votes. And, if they don't change too much on their social issues, Democrats will also hold on to the urban vote. Republicans may very well be regulated to the McMansionites in the suburbs.

lol @ the change coming.

You won on an anybody but bush agenda. The dems did not win because of their ideals, and why is that? Because they have no ideals, nor do they have a plan.

You win now..but trust me its bittersweet because you will not win in 08. Say hi to president Rudy Guiliani!

know1

rearviewmiror wrote:

Too bad. Welcome to America. I bet you didnt mind using the roads that taxes paid for. The schools they paid for, that helped you make the money that you complain about being taxed.

It is so arrogant of people to stand on the shoulders of giants and then deny the collective effort that got them there once they have the pice of the pie they want.

The roads I have no problem with. The schools are debatable as I favor privatization. There are a whole host of things I shouldn't be paying for, however. The war is a big one, but it's only part of a much, much longer list.

Byrnzie

know1 wrote:

Sure...you're never bitter!

I'm in basically the same mood as always. I guess all the complaining will stop now that the U.S. will be perfect again.

Damn! I didn't think of that. Back to the Dublin thread it is then. :rolleyes:

inmytree

miller8966 wrote:

lol @ the change coming.

You won on an anybody but bush agenda. The dems did not win because of their ideals, and why is that? Because they have no ideals, nor do they have a plan.

You win now..but trust me its bittersweet because you will not win in 08. Say hi to president Rudy Guiliani!

I contend the Dems won on a "bush failed" agenda...

as I've stated elsewhere, I'm looking forward to some good ol' checks and balances....also, I'm interested in seeing bush be a "uniter"...

as for Guiliani, if he lowers my taxes, focuses on sound foreign policy, and seeks a middle ground, I look forward to his taking charge...

Jeanwah

miller8966 wrote:

l
You win now..but trust me its bittersweet because you will not win in 08. Say hi to president Rudy Guiliani!

Sorry to disappoint...Rudy has no plan of running!

RainDog

miller8966 wrote:

You win now..but trust me its bittersweet because you will not win in 08. Say hi to president Rudy Guiliani!

Pro-gay and pro-choice Guiliani getting the Republican nomination is supposed to convince me this country is moving further to the right?

Jammin909

miller8966 wrote:

lol @ the change coming.

You won on an anybody but bush agenda. The dems did not win because of their ideals, and why is that? Because they have no ideals, nor do they have a plan.

Rumsfeld had a plan for Iraq? Bush had a plan for when the trade deficit hit an all-time high?

Debate in circles and finger pointing. Lets just hope that something positive can come of the next two years with a Repub president and a Dem controlled house and senate.

Ledbetterdays

A good point was made that most of the items on the table for states to vote on with a liberal slant were shot down--in general. The Democratic wins have nothing to do with a shift in morality--just a distaste for what the Republicans have given us for the last eight years. The Democrats are on the clock and if they do not get it together by 2008 then we will probably have another Republican President named McCain.

know1

Wasn't it basically the conservative Dems that won?

RainDog

know1 wrote:

Wasn't it basically the conservative Dems that won?

That depends on the district. Some conservative Dems won in more conservative areas, and some liberal ones won in more liberal areas.

lgt

Purple Hawk wrote:

Do you honestly think that this election will impact our policy to win in Iraq? The Democrats that won are basically Republicans with D's next to their name and are not for losing (in liberal lingo, redeployment). If they side with the far-left leadership, they will not win re-election. So, no, those of us who care more about the issues aren't bitter about last night, because we didn't lose on the issues.

But as you point out, any politician in order to be elected is also aware of the mood of the voters. Opposition to the Iraq war has been growing in the States, the Democrats will capitalise on that against Bush, and all the world will benefit from it by default as that senseless war will end.

rearviewmiror

farfromglorified wrote:

And what is it to demand payment as a collective based only on the argument that you exist, therefore you're entitled to it?

I believe that we are all here together. It's pretty simple. For me to succeed I need the help of others. Collectively we can do more than alone. I dont believe that might makes right, and Government that provides for all rather than just the loudest or most popular is humane.

In the end, how many of us would be anywhere without the collective use of our government? Health, Safety, and Education are all provided for the whole. If you feel that because you do not use a service, you should not pay for it: Can I get a refund on everything I dont use?

Maybe you dont like Government, but again I challenge you to renounce all of the things that it has given you.

farfromglorified

First, you didn't answer my question: what is it to demand payment as a collective based only on the argument that you exist, therefore you're entitled to it?

But I'll address these points:

rearviewmiror wrote:

I believe that we are all here together. It's pretty simple. For me to succeed I need the help of others. Collectively we can do more than alone.

I completely agree!

I dont believe that might makes right, and Government that provides for all rather than just the loudest or most popular is humane.

You don't believe that might makes right? Are you sure??? A minute ago you just said this:

"Too bad. Welcome to America. I bet you didnt mind using the roads that taxes paid for. The schools they paid for, that helped you make the money that you complain about being taxed."

Might upholds every point you made there -- the might of law, backed by the force of the state. If you believe that you have the right to simply force someone to pay for your schools, you definitely believe that might makes right.

In the end, how many of us would be anywhere without the collective use of our government? Health, Safety, and Education are all provided for the whole. If you feel that because you do not use a service, you should not pay for it: Can I get a refund on everything I dont use?

Certainly!

Maybe you dont like Government, but again I challenge you to renounce all of the things that it has given you.

Why would I have to renounce anything? I've paid for it because you've forced me to. In the absence of such force, I'll certainly stop paying for a lot of things and will have no expectation of use.

Vedderlution_Baby

I smell it. I just hope it don't smelling like the old shit.

chromiam

lgt wrote:

But as you point out, any politician in order to be elected is also aware of the mood of the voters. Opposition to the Iraq war has been growing in the States, the Democrats will capitalise on that against Bush, and all the world will benefit from it by default as that senseless war will end.

sorry but the war isn't ending anytime soon.

Jammin909

chromiam wrote:

sorry but the war isn't ending anytime soon.

Having Rumsfeld gone will help more than a Democratic congress. Either way- it has been a good two days for America!

chromiam

Jammin909 wrote:

Having Rumsfeld gone will help more than a Democratic congress. Either way- it has been a good two days for America!

True but troops won't be out before the presidential election in 08. And the president still sets policy.

rearviewmiror

Holy Crap that's a lot to post back from.

Anyhow. Original question, what is it to demand payment as a collective based only on the argument that you exist, therefore you're entitled to it?

I would say I dont base it only on the fact that I exist, merely that there are those that deserve payment and those that don't. It's called compassion. (No, I am not a tree hugger from the 60's. I have always agreed with Welfare reform)

How could I answer a question that wasnt my position to start with?

I am not going to argue about taxes with anyone. Whatever your reason for not liking them, every stable government operates with that kind of might to collect taxes. If it didnt it wouldnt be around very long. My point was that the will of the majority isnt always the proper decision. To me taxes are like vegetables. there are some I like, but mainly they are necessary to the health of the state despite my feelings.

"Why would I have to renounce anything? I've paid for it because you've forced me to. In the absence of such force, I'll certainly stop paying for a lot of things and will have no expectation of use."

I think you would find that those services you did feel compelled to pay for might not be as good without the combined power of everyone else using your payments. (For instance, how good would your roads be if they were made by my children who I kept out of school to save on the taxes?)

I respect your opinion, but I still find it selfish. Admittedly my opinion is selfish too, but I like to think that a selfishness based on the greater good is better than a me 1st attitude.