...
Actually... Math translates into and represents the real and physical environment in which we exist. Whereas, One Apple plus One Apple equals Two Apples. There is not denial, no arguement that can dispute that statement. We can discuss whether the apples exist or don't exist... or whether you and everyone else in this entire Universe exists only in the conscienous of my mind... the fact remains... one plus one equals two. This is a Universal truth.
God, being this intangible entity that only exists as a concept, cannot be proven... nor can He be dis-proven. God is an relative, or subjective, truth. We choose whether or not to believe. My beliefs do not apply Universally... just as everyone else's beliefs. People may hold their belief in God and 'The Truth'... and to them, it IS the truth. But, it is not the truth to everyone. Their idea of God, does not apply to me.
...
Me? I believe in God... but, not the petty human-like being as described in the Bible and other religious texts. My God accepts me... even if I question His very existance. My God does not sit in judgement of my faith or lack thereof... rather, the character of my being. This is why I am God-Loving, rather than God-fearing.
I don't know what happens when we die. All I know as a fact is that I am going to die. I cannot change that fact, no matter what I believe. So, all I know is that death is a passage... either to another level of conscienousness or existance... or into an eternal void. Other than that.. I basically know that I don't know.
Yeah... I can 'Hope' for things... but, the bottom line... I don't know. and I know that no one else knows. Leastwise, no one I hve met or read about or heard about. It's all conjecture based upon belief.
wow...i mean.....wow....extremely well put......i want that on a t-shirt.....:)
1. To have actual being; be real.
2. To have life; live: one of the worst actors that ever existed.
3. To live at a minimal level; subsist: barely enough income on which to exist.
4. To continue to be; persist: old customs that still exist in rural areas.
5. To be present under certain circumstances or in a specified place; occur: "Wealth and poverty exist in every demographic category" (Thomas G. Exter).
I was just going to agree, but after reading the definition of reality and thinking about it some more I wasn't so sure. Looking at these definitions, I would say yes under #5 and maybe #4.
I am going to return to my theme of externalization here. Weath, poverty and customs are ideas that can be communicated to another person, via speech or written symbol. They exist as part of our communal extelligence, so they have a reality as a concept rather than a physical thing.
This still contrasts with a perception which is entirely internal and only appreciated by one person.
...An inability to do this, where a perception or thought is entirely within one person, and unable to be shared or externalized would seem much less real to me, and therefore be said not to exist, other than as a perception of that person.
Again, the operative words seem to be "much less real to me", which is dependent on your perceptions and your ideas of what "real" entails, etc. This is not necessarily tied into what truly exists.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I would tend to agree.
Remember the death of say, Morrison. He died of a heart attack, there is a certificate of death, a tomb and a desperate widow who let herself die. Imagine he really didn't die, just wanted to leave the spotlights and his surroundings. He isn't dead, but since everyone believes he is he really is dead. See what I mean? It works with any past event, if we believe it happened so it becomes our reality even if it really isn't.
Plus I tend to agree with descartes, and if I can doubt everything that surrounds me I have to believe my surrounding exists. But that's a moot point.
Example 1: We believed there were WMDs in Iraq. This belief failed to materialize.
If the belief is based on a lie... the only thing that exists is the lie.
But, if the person telling the lie truely believed there WERE WMDs in Iraq... the lie does not exist, yet, the WMDs still fail to materialize.
Example 2: I believe someone loves me. That does not mean love exists.
Example 3: Someone truely believes in God and/or that Jesus was the Messiah...
1: You believed there were WMDs in Iraq, the consequence was as if they had them, ie war. The perception made it real in consequence.
2: You believe someone loves you, and you react accordingly depending on your attitude to such a possibility. Regardless of whether the other person loves you or not in reality, your reaction remains the same, and has further implications as if love had been present from the start.
3: If they believe that, they take the consequences of it. They follow religious rules and conduct in accordance to the Messiah and his teachings. Whether he ever existed at all isn't important. They act the consequence.
Our social world is very flexible and fluid. Perceptions can be as potent as realities, actually perceptions is all we have to go on. There is a lot of power to form the world for us there. And perhaps it goes further than that. But that's speculative.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
...
Actually... Math translates into and represents the real and physical environment in which we exist. Whereas, One Apple plus One Apple equals Two Apples. There is not denial, no arguement that can dispute that statement.
1+1 may equal two, based on the abstractions called numbers that we've come up with. How about imaginary numbers? Are they real and absolute in your belief system? Are they real objectively, meaning can we attach them to something that exists physically? Are they symbols that represent a concept?
God, being this intangible entity that only exists as a concept, cannot be proven... nor can He be dis-proven. God is an relative, or subjective, truth. We choose whether or not to believe. My beliefs do not apply Universally... just as everyone else's beliefs. People may hold their belief in God and 'The Truth'... and to them, it IS the truth. But, it is not the truth to everyone. Their idea of God, does not apply to me.
Because something can or cannot be proven, again, is about us subjectively and our perceptions, and not about whether it actually exists independent of us.
Ultimately, people's perceptions may cause them to view reality differently, and yet there are universals. For example, we all realize we come from a source and are sustained by a source. How we subjectively define that source is about us, and yet there exists the fundamental concept.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Very nice points, hodge and OutOfBreath. If by one person believing in something, it actually changes that person and therefore changes what exists in terms of what is observable in the objective world, then what can we say about that cause? Does it not exist?
"The "Thomas theorem":
What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences. " Very interesting. lucylespian says about math, that it's reality can be tested by external references.
As is represented by any dictionary, the word "empirical" which is recognized by science refers to one's experience, so one's experience is considered empirically valid.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
surprised no one mentioned the placebo effect
there's a good example of thoughts materalizing as healing manifests through your own thoughts/belief
Well, that's your assumption. The "placebo" effect is really naatural history, ie, that which would happen anyway. IN blinded trial, you dno't see placebo effect, in a non-blinded trial, what you are seeing is observer and reporting bias, but that is a differnet duscussion.
Anjelica, I come back to one of my original lines, the definition of "reality" is pretty slippery, and I don't think we have niled it down yet. My recurring theme of perceptions beign real when they are shred by maoe than one person still stands. Again though, don't think that I am arguing for or against anything here, more throwing ideas around. Please don't box me in, I'm not a box kind of guy...............
unless we are refering to
VAGINA
in which case I'm a box man. But until then, it's all open to me. Well except for the existence of God thing. He exists in peoples minds, and that has effects on people, but not on bugger all else. Which raises an other point. Various people persist in asserting that the human mind is powerful enough to affect the physical world. It ain't, it's just able to influence other humans.
Very nice points, hodge and OutOfBreath. If by one person believing in something, it actually changes that person and therefore changes what exists in terms of what is observable in the objective world, then what can we say about that cause? Does it not exist?
"The "Thomas theorem":
What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences. " Very interesting. Lucy Lespian says about math, that it's reality can be tested by external references.
As is represented by any dictionary, the word "empirical" which is recognized by science refers to one's experience, so one's experience is considered empirically valid.
though one would imagine that knowledge gained empirically would be assumed to include outside influence. society having an impact upon the indivdual rather than what he/she experiences solely from within.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Which raises an other point. Various people persist in asserting that the human mind is powerful enough to affect the physical world. It ain't, it's just able to influence other humans.
Interesting. You don't find human beings to be part of the physical world? I think the study of physics would disagree with you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
though one would imagine that knowledge gained empirically would be assumed to include outside influence. society having an impact upon the indivdual rather than what he/she experiences solely from within.
Either way, epirics tells us that a persons experience is empirical. Therefore if only one person experiences something as real, that is considered empirical evidence. People can take that as they will.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Interesting. You don't find human beings to be part of the physical world? I think the study of physics would disagree with you.
Now now, don't twist things out of shape. I think you know what I mean. Lets just say you had a stroke and teh wiring from brain to hand was busted. Lacking a direct connection, your mind cold not make your hand move no matter how many pained faces you pulled. On the other hand, a clever hypnotist can make another human do almost anything.
I received an interesting insight about insomnia the other day, quoted from a leading hypnotist. People basically self-hypnotise themselves into staying awake. There si a littel more to than tha, but that's the guts of it.
Various people persist in asserting that the human mind is powerful enough to affect the physical world. It ain't, it's just able to influence other humans.
You said "it ain't".
To me, it's very clear that we can affect other humans, and as OutOfBreath pointed out, that's enough to get other humans to create an entire war killing ungodly amounts of people. That's pretty real on a physical level. Humans are a part of, and interact with and affect this entire level of existence all the time. Like I said earlier, some people are wired to acknowledge impersonal systems, and they have strengths in that. That preference can become a weakness when that manner of filtering "reality" means that human actions, experiences and values are minimized, overlooked or ignored. In psychology, just as we have hallucinations, we have negative hallucinations which is when people tune out obvious happenings.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
though one would imagine that knowledge gained empirically would be assumed to include outside influence. society having an impact upon the indivdual rather than what he/she experiences solely from within.
I overlooked something here: my spiritual experiences happened to me on a level that was not external or physical, even though they were woven within the physical level that everyone perceives. These empirical experiences did not come from society, or outside influence. In this sense, your assumption was not true in this case. The nature of spiritual experience in general is that they don't come from the commonly-accepted 3-d plane of experiences, but are generated from a different level that some apparently do not perceive.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I thought about it some more and I definitely disagree and it's quite simple to prove that this statement is wrong, you'd have to adjust it for it to be right.
...
Actually... Math translates into and represents the real and physical environment in which we exist. Whereas, One Apple plus One Apple equals Two Apples. There is not denial, no arguement that can dispute that statement. We can discuss whether the apples exist or don't exist... or whether you and everyone else in this entire Universe exists only in the conscienous of my mind... the fact remains... one plus one equals two. This is a Universal truth.
You are NOT a mathematician, are you Cosmo? Firstly, "one apple plus one apple makes two apples" does NOT mean that "1+ 1= 2" divorced of any specific objects- that's a completely different definition. There are many arguments to dispute your stance that "math translates into and represents the real world". There are many areas of theoretical physics & manthematics that have no basis in the observed data of the real world.
As for other things: category theory was not developed with the intent of doing anything for the real world.
Non-euclidean geometry was developed without recourse to the real world, it was an attempt to see if the parallel postulate was independent of the other axioms, and its models were a long time in being invented.
Just because something has now got a use modeling the real world doesn't mean that it started off with that intention.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Great link, baraka! It's interesting what we as lay people know about math or science, and are taught is "real" and tangible, that really doesn't hold up the way we think it does when it all comes down to it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Great link, baraka! It's interesting what we as lay people know about math or science, and are taught is "real" and tangible, that really doesn't hold up the way we think it does when it all comes down to it.
A lot of people get caught up in the "well if it doesn't apply to the real world....." argument and then try to argue that math is all based in real world applications and that simply is not the case. Hell, might as well throw out all of theoretical physics. The esoteric concepts are what makes it so amazing!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
A lot of people get caught up in the "well if it doesn't apply to the real world....." argument and then try to argue that math is all based in real world applications and that simply is not the case. Hell, might as well throw out all of theoretical physics. The esoteric concepts are what makes it so amazing!
Smart women are so hot!!!
This is sheer brilliance: "The esoteric concepts are what makes it so amazing!"
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
wow...i mean.....wow....extremely well put......i want that on a t-shirt.....:)
I am going to return to my theme of externalization here. Weath, poverty and customs are ideas that can be communicated to another person, via speech or written symbol. They exist as part of our communal extelligence, so they have a reality as a concept rather than a physical thing.
This still contrasts with a perception which is entirely internal and only appreciated by one person.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Remember the death of say, Morrison. He died of a heart attack, there is a certificate of death, a tomb and a desperate widow who let herself die. Imagine he really didn't die, just wanted to leave the spotlights and his surroundings. He isn't dead, but since everyone believes he is he really is dead. See what I mean? It works with any past event, if we believe it happened so it becomes our reality even if it really isn't.
Plus I tend to agree with descartes, and if I can doubt everything that surrounds me I have to believe my surrounding exists. But that's a moot point.
What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences.
I'll use Cosmo's points from earlier on to elaborate (Not that I'm singling you out, they were just handy):
1: You believed there were WMDs in Iraq, the consequence was as if they had them, ie war. The perception made it real in consequence.
2: You believe someone loves you, and you react accordingly depending on your attitude to such a possibility. Regardless of whether the other person loves you or not in reality, your reaction remains the same, and has further implications as if love had been present from the start.
3: If they believe that, they take the consequences of it. They follow religious rules and conduct in accordance to the Messiah and his teachings. Whether he ever existed at all isn't important. They act the consequence.
Our social world is very flexible and fluid. Perceptions can be as potent as realities, actually perceptions is all we have to go on. There is a lot of power to form the world for us there. And perhaps it goes further than that. But that's speculative.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Because something can or cannot be proven, again, is about us subjectively and our perceptions, and not about whether it actually exists independent of us.
Ultimately, people's perceptions may cause them to view reality differently, and yet there are universals. For example, we all realize we come from a source and are sustained by a source. How we subjectively define that source is about us, and yet there exists the fundamental concept.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
there's a good example of thoughts materalizing as healing manifests through your own thoughts/belief
"The "Thomas theorem":
What is perceived as real, become real in it's consequences. " Very interesting. lucylespian says about math, that it's reality can be tested by external references.
As is represented by any dictionary, the word "empirical" which is recognized by science refers to one's experience, so one's experience is considered empirically valid.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Well, that's your assumption. The "placebo" effect is really naatural history, ie, that which would happen anyway. IN blinded trial, you dno't see placebo effect, in a non-blinded trial, what you are seeing is observer and reporting bias, but that is a differnet duscussion.
Anjelica, I come back to one of my original lines, the definition of "reality" is pretty slippery, and I don't think we have niled it down yet. My recurring theme of perceptions beign real when they are shred by maoe than one person still stands. Again though, don't think that I am arguing for or against anything here, more throwing ideas around. Please don't box me in, I'm not a box kind of guy...............
unless we are refering to
VAGINA
in which case I'm a box man. But until then, it's all open to me. Well except for the existence of God thing. He exists in peoples minds, and that has effects on people, but not on bugger all else. Which raises an other point. Various people persist in asserting that the human mind is powerful enough to affect the physical world. It ain't, it's just able to influence other humans.
though one would imagine that knowledge gained empirically would be assumed to include outside influence. society having an impact upon the indivdual rather than what he/she experiences solely from within.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Now now, don't twist things out of shape. I think you know what I mean. Lets just say you had a stroke and teh wiring from brain to hand was busted. Lacking a direct connection, your mind cold not make your hand move no matter how many pained faces you pulled. On the other hand, a clever hypnotist can make another human do almost anything.
I received an interesting insight about insomnia the other day, quoted from a leading hypnotist. People basically self-hypnotise themselves into staying awake. There si a littel more to than tha, but that's the guts of it.
It looked to me that you were disconnecting humans and their effects from the physical environment.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Nah, just discounting effects which occur without hands feet, vaginas etc. Ya know I type slow and badly !!
You said "it ain't".
To me, it's very clear that we can affect other humans, and as OutOfBreath pointed out, that's enough to get other humans to create an entire war killing ungodly amounts of people. That's pretty real on a physical level. Humans are a part of, and interact with and affect this entire level of existence all the time. Like I said earlier, some people are wired to acknowledge impersonal systems, and they have strengths in that. That preference can become a weakness when that manner of filtering "reality" means that human actions, experiences and values are minimized, overlooked or ignored. In psychology, just as we have hallucinations, we have negative hallucinations which is when people tune out obvious happenings.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
naděje umírá poslední
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
naděje umírá poslední
You are NOT a mathematician, are you Cosmo? Firstly, "one apple plus one apple makes two apples" does NOT mean that "1+ 1= 2" divorced of any specific objects- that's a completely different definition. There are many arguments to dispute your stance that "math translates into and represents the real world". There are many areas of theoretical physics & manthematics that have no basis in the observed data of the real world.
As for other things: category theory was not developed with the intent of doing anything for the real world.
Non-euclidean geometry was developed without recourse to the real world, it was an attempt to see if the parallel postulate was independent of the other axioms, and its models were a long time in being invented.
Just because something has now got a use modeling the real world doesn't mean that it started off with that intention.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
A lot of people get caught up in the "well if it doesn't apply to the real world....." argument and then try to argue that math is all based in real world applications and that simply is not the case. Hell, might as well throw out all of theoretical physics. The esoteric concepts are what makes it so amazing!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
This is sheer brilliance: "The esoteric concepts are what makes it so amazing!"
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Disagree, unless by "something" you simply mean a belief.
Ick.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Hehe...depends on the belief I guess.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!