I'm not saying that. Certainly they are my perceptions of reality, but reglardless what I think, reality exists in a version independant of my thoughts.
There are many things that can easily be proven to exist in reality, where interpretation is left out. For example is a smiley face.
The way I see it, we don't disagree on interpretaton--we have the consensual reality with that smiley face. Interpretation still goes on in each one of us beneath the surface, or above, in assessing the yellow smiling symbol.
The consensual reality is easy! Hence why people love the norms they hold so dearly.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm not interested in that. That is a psychotic experience IMO. I'd like to avoid those. I can appreciate life and all that you do without hallucinations and such.
and there it is. you've closed your mind to other experiences and thus limited your reality to your mind. if man had refused to reach beyond the earth; we would have never walked on the moon. we wouldn't know what we now know about the universe.
if you limit what you'll accept as reality; how can you find reality? how can a closed mind know what reality really is?
and there it is. you've closed your mind to other experiences and thus limited your reality to your mind. if man had refused to reach beyond the earth; we would have never walked on the moon. we wouldn't know what we now know about the universe.
if you limit what you'll accept as reality; how can you find reality? how can a closed mind know what reality really is?
We've objectively proven that (in reality) people hallucinate, are delusional and a large majority of people have psychotic experiences.
I know that if I was able to reproduce your results that I would be in a position to believe it is real, but that doesn't mean it is, it could just be a self-induced psychotic episode, which is why I choose the opinion that it is probably not real. Mainly because it exists only within your mind and cannot be studied objectively.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The way I see it, we don't disagree on interpretaton--we have the consensual reality with that smiley face. Interpretation still goes on in each one of us beneath the surface, or above, in assessing the yellow smiling symbol.
The consensual reality is easy! Hence why people love the norms they hold so dearly.
Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things. In conversation, you and I, often refer to perception as internal reality, because internally it's what one perceives as real, but it is not a reality independant of our minds and therefor is not reality, only a perception of what is real.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Can you go check on Hitler for me? I have a sneaking suspicion he's up to no good.
then explain time? what is it the measurement of? who decided what time it is? when the very first clock was invented; who decided what time it was? who decided how fast a clock ran?
in my life; time is not relevant. most of the time i couldn't tell you what day it is. when i wake; i feed the animals; and check email for orders. i'll process them and go about the day. some time mid-day; i'll give the horses and llamas a treat for lunch; and when it starts getting dark; i'll feed again. if i sleep till noon; lunch may be 4:00 pm. if i'm up at 5:00 am; lunch may be 11:00 am. time has absolutely no meaning here. there is no need to measure it.
then explain time? what is it the measurement of? who decided what time it is? when the very first clock was invented; who decided what time it was? who decided how fast a clock ran?
in my life; time is not relevant. most of the time i couldn't tell you what day it is. when i wake; i feed the animals; and check email for orders. i'll process them and go about the day. some time mid-day; i'll give the horses and llamas a treat for lunch; and when it starts getting dark; i'll feed again. if i sleep till noon; lunch may be 4:00 pm. if i'm up at 5:00 am; lunch may be 11:00 am. time has absolutely no meaning here. there is no need to measure it.
Exactly what you are speaking of is the measurement of time, not time it's self.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Do you know that reality does not spring from consciousness? If so, how?
Because I cannot shape reality from consciousness. I cannot think food into existence. I cannot think myself immortal. I cannot think God into being. I cannot think my mind into being both a mind and not a mind at the same time. I must think of these things and then act in order to make them real, even then often failing to achieve my desires.
What you have shown me is that you may not understand the importance of the thought "I am hungry" when you manifest food for yourself numerous times per day. Besides that, if the law of manifestation is real, and you continue to focus on what you cannot do, you have created a self fulfilling prophecy packed with the limits that bind you. Did anyone read you "The Little Engine that Could" when you were a little boy?
However, we can remove volition and reason from consciousness and we could simply say that perception is a "joke" and we would be philosophically consistent. Yet such a contention would be completely unproveable since it would require perception to prove. It woud be nothing more than a philosophical statement of plausibility. The words true, false, right, and wrong would could no longer apply in any meaningful way.
I do not understand your point.
It's entirely possible. Look, we can go back to the solipsism and say that I am the only one who exists and everyone and everything else is simply a manifestation of my consciousness. If approached correctly, it's a perfectly logical concept. Yet I doubt we'll find a solipsist who, when discovering a car driving the wrong way in his or her lane on the highway, would simply scream at the other driver "you don't exist".
You obviously don't understand the mindset of truly believing everything is a manifestation of one's consciousness.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things. In conversation, you and I, often refer to perception as internal reality, because internally it's what one perceives as real, but it is not a reality independant of our minds and therefor is not reality, only a perception of what is real.
and each person perceives reality different; therefore there is no reality. you may agree on facts; but each perception is different.
for example: you stated the was a smiley face. i call it a happy face. now this is a happy face in my perception.
many will agree with me so what does that do to your reality? your thought tells you is a smiley face and perceives it to be reality. to others it's a happy face. thus reality is confined to the mind. what the mind sees as real.
Of course. But all Plato has effectively demonstrated here is that a blind person sees the world differently than a seeing person. It simply states that an incomplete view of a complete world will seem complete to a perceptive being. But this fact does not prove his "higher realm". It just proves that things can exist beyond our perception.
It is both plausible and highly likely that realms exist beyond our perception. But first there is no guarantee of that fact. Secondly, I tend to find the entire concept superfluous and silly. One may look at a jellyfish, for instance, and say that there are realms beyond that jellyfish's perception. But an interesting question arises: so what? Is there then something fundamentally flawed about the jellyfish's existence? I'd argue no. The same is true for people. We are creatures who have evolved for specific reasons into what we are. And that reason is life, driven by happiness. Does a failure to perceive "higher realms" preclude life or happiness?
I certainly support your right to embrace your view as is. I however se quite differently. The point between Aristotle vs. Plato is not about right/wrong, but rather about two separate opinions/perspectives.
Do you realize you see realms that exist beyond those seen by someone with the average IQ of 100? It sounds to me that you have a straw man stereotype of these "realms" you speak of that you've created to be fallible within your mind. And with this straw and fallible man distracting you, you are overlooking the various realms that normally occur in awareness between individuals. Don't look for me to be saying something unnatural and impossible, because when you do so, that is what you will find. When you look to understand what I am seeing, then you will come to see it.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
and each person perceives reality different; therefore there is no reality. you may agree on facts; but each perception is different.
for example: you stated the was a smiley face. i call it a happy face. now this is a happy face in my perception.
many will agree with me so what does that do to your reality? your thought tells you is a smiley face and perceives it to be reality. to others it's a happy face. thus reality is confined to the mind. what the mind sees as real.
Ok, good, so you are able to produce the same pixel layout as me, doesn't matter what you call it, the pixels are still arranged identically.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
time doesn't exist. you can't prove it does. time is only a method used by man to measure a section of distance that has no beginning or no end.
Time is a symbol that represents and objective truth.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Actually, if you watch the full clip, I think it's available on ebaumsworld.com killsometime.com youtube.com or shoutfile.com, they discuss the scientific basis for their work. Just like chinese martial artists, these men condition their bones by striking solid objects, it cause the bones to strengthen. There is a real biological explanation for the strengthening of bones, and ultimately it leads to bones that are harder or as hard as bricks.
It should also be noted that the physics of striking do not require the striking object to be harder than the struck object for the struck object to break.
I will add that if the initial force transfered to the struck object isn't sufficient enough to transfer momentum, say the object is too elastic or resistent to the force given, that force will then bounce back into the striking object, causing a broken hand no doubt. I've played around with breaking boards, and not the cheap, softwood boards you order from karate supplies, but real hardwood 2x4s. If struck lightly, the pain is incredible, however, if struck with maximum velocity and minimal surface area, the board will break, and in that case all momentum is transfered through the board and no pain is suffered by the striking object (hand).
There's a whole lot of mental conditioning allowing that strengthening of bone to take place though. The brain controls it all. The mental fortitude required to train to that effect is what makes it possible. Envision bones of steel like strength and you get them...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things.
Can you please elaborate as to what you mean in this context?
In conversation, you and I, often refer to perception as internal reality, because internally it's what one perceives as real, but it is not a reality independant of our minds and therefor is not reality, only a perception of what is real.
I think you and I have different perception as to what our "minds" are. I believe we are all immersed in mind as one, and that we also personalize it by manifesting it individually in our brains and as our perspective of this whole. It sounds like you believe this manifestation in our brain is the cause. I see it as part of the whole complete picture of all the reams of variables contained in any one slice of reality.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You obviously don't understand the mindset of truly believing everything is a manifestation of one's consciousness.
remember the twilight zone episode where the guy only existed in someone elses dream?
he could be a manifestation of someone's mind. the person you know as ____________ could be only the alter ego of what someone else wants to be or wishes they were. you wouldn't recognise __________ on the street because he/she only exists here in PJ land.
you and i are the few that confess flaws and faults and even defects here on the board. how do we know that some here are not as they portray themselves? so they don't exist in reality. they're actors playing a part.
time doesn't exist. you can't prove it does. time is only a method used by man to measure a section of distance that has no beginning or no end.
...
i disagree... I believe time exists, whether Man exists or not. Time existed before Man existed and will exist long after Man become extinct.
Man exists within the boundaries of Time and Space.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
There's a whole lot of mental conditioning allowing that strengthening of bone to take place though. The mental fortitude required to train to that effect is what makes it possible. Envision bones of steel like strength and you get them...
I've no condition of mental state other than knowledge to allow for my abilities.
I've stated before that thinking about muscle mass can cause mass to increase, this is however an internal mechanism of our bodies. Our brains send hormones PPAR-Gamma and PPAR-Delta to the muscle tissue to trigger the burning of stored adipose tissue, which by laws of energy conservation become muscle tissue in the absence of physical exertion.
However, this does not apply to thinking about someone else's muscle tissue. It's not been done, because it would be absurd, but experimenting with the effect of thoughts on a separate individuals muscle mass would prove ineffective. Countless experiments of "thoughts affecting reality" have been performed and all conclusively show that our thoughts have no effect on physical reality outside of our bodies. There have been non-scientists and fringe scientists who've made such claims, but empirical skepticism has weeded them out.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Can you please elaborate as to what you mean in this context?
I think you and I have different perception as to what our "minds" are. I believe we are all immersed in mind as one, and that we also personalize it by manifesting it individually in our brains and as our perspective of this whole. It sounds like you believe this manifestation in our brain is the cause. I see it as part of the whole complete picture of all the reams of variables contained in any one slice of reality.
I have no idea what you said there.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
All of this is rather infant philosophy. Can we move on to the hard stuff?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
We've objectively proven that (in reality) people hallucinate, are delusional and a large majority of people have psychotic experiences.
I know that if I was able to reproduce your results that I would be in a position to believe it is real, but that doesn't mean it is, it could just be a self-induced psychotic episode, which is why I choose the opinion that it is probably not real. Mainly because it exists only within your mind and cannot be studied objectively.
but you're afraid to confront it. you won't open your mind to the possability. i promise you it'll be an increadible experience. thinking is the best way to travel.
you don't know what you're missing. there's a whole other world out there.
...
i disagree... I believe time exists, whether Man exists or not. Time existed before Man existed and will exist long after Man become extinct.
Man exists within the boundaries of Time and Space.
but you're afraid to confront it. you won't open your mind to the possability. i promise you it'll be an increadible experience. thinking is the best way to travel.
you don't know what you're missing. there's a whole other world out there.
Doing LSD is an incredible experience too. Another one that I stay away from.
The "whole other world" is probably just in your mind.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I see that the human mind is a receiver for the mind or consciousness that underlies everything. I see mind as general, until we each individually personalize it from our perspective where it shows up as activity in the brain. Therefore, I'm guessing it's safe to assume that you and I look at "mind" differently.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
A simple thought experiment "what if time did not exist" proves that it does.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Also, Ahnimus, you said: "Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things." Can you explain what you meant when you said this awhile back--regarding the situation we talked about then?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I see that the human mind is a receiver for the mind or consciousness that underlies everything. I see mind as general, until we each individually personalize it from our perspective where it shows up as activity in the brain. Therefore, I'm guessing it's safe to assume that you and I look at "mind" differently.
I know that the brain correlates with mind. That's all that really matters. It's been objectively proven by Francis Crick and Christof Koch.
You can choose to believe it's like a soul, or something that objectively does not exist and enters the body at some time during life. But it's all speculation, it's like waving a knife around in the dark. I choose not to blindly believe in things. If you do, that is fine, but it's hardly a leg to stand on in a debate.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Also, Ahnimus, you said: "Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things." Can you explain what you meant when you said this awhile back--regarding the situation we talked about then?
Main Entry: per·cep·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin perception-, perceptio act of perceiving, from percipere
1 a : a result of perceiving : OBSERVATION b : a mental image : CONCEPT
2 obsolete : CONSCIOUSNESS
3 a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation <color perception> b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4 a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : APPRECIATION b : a capacity for comprehension
synonym see DISCERNMENT
- per·cep·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I've no condition of mental state other than knowledge to allow for my abilities.
I've stated before that thinking about muscle mass can cause mass to increase, this is however an internal mechanism of our bodies. Our brains send hormones PPAR-Gamma and PPAR-Delta to the muscle tissue to trigger the burning of stored adipose tissue, which by laws of energy conservation become muscle tissue in the absence of physical exertion.
However, this does not apply to thinking about someone else's muscle tissue. It's not been done, because it would be absurd, but experimenting with the effect of thoughts on a separate individuals muscle mass would prove ineffective. Countless experiments of "thoughts affecting reality" have been performed and all conclusively show that our thoughts have no effect on physical reality outside of our bodies. There have been non-scientists and fringe scientists who've made such claims, but empirical skepticism has weeded them out.
yeah but there is a way to get another person to grow muscle outside your body. You tell them!
Hey when you said light has no shape, how can it not have shape when it can be distorted. I see time as product of vibration like a point on a guitar string.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
The consensual reality is easy! Hence why people love the norms they hold so dearly.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
and there it is. you've closed your mind to other experiences and thus limited your reality to your mind. if man had refused to reach beyond the earth; we would have never walked on the moon. we wouldn't know what we now know about the universe.
if you limit what you'll accept as reality; how can you find reality? how can a closed mind know what reality really is?
We've objectively proven that (in reality) people hallucinate, are delusional and a large majority of people have psychotic experiences.
I know that if I was able to reproduce your results that I would be in a position to believe it is real, but that doesn't mean it is, it could just be a self-induced psychotic episode, which is why I choose the opinion that it is probably not real. Mainly because it exists only within your mind and cannot be studied objectively.
Right, which is why we have "reality" and "perception" two different things. In conversation, you and I, often refer to perception as internal reality, because internally it's what one perceives as real, but it is not a reality independant of our minds and therefor is not reality, only a perception of what is real.
then explain time? what is it the measurement of? who decided what time it is? when the very first clock was invented; who decided what time it was? who decided how fast a clock ran?
in my life; time is not relevant. most of the time i couldn't tell you what day it is. when i wake; i feed the animals; and check email for orders. i'll process them and go about the day. some time mid-day; i'll give the horses and llamas a treat for lunch; and when it starts getting dark; i'll feed again. if i sleep till noon; lunch may be 4:00 pm. if i'm up at 5:00 am; lunch may be 11:00 am. time has absolutely no meaning here. there is no need to measure it.
Exactly what you are speaking of is the measurement of time, not time it's self.
I do not understand your point.
You obviously don't understand the mindset of truly believing everything is a manifestation of one's consciousness.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
and each person perceives reality different; therefore there is no reality. you may agree on facts; but each perception is different.
for example: you stated the
many will agree with me so what does that do to your reality? your thought tells you
time doesn't exist. you can't prove it does. time is only a method used by man to measure a section of distance that has no beginning or no end.
Do you realize you see realms that exist beyond those seen by someone with the average IQ of 100? It sounds to me that you have a straw man stereotype of these "realms" you speak of that you've created to be fallible within your mind. And with this straw and fallible man distracting you, you are overlooking the various realms that normally occur in awareness between individuals. Don't look for me to be saying something unnatural and impossible, because when you do so, that is what you will find. When you look to understand what I am seeing, then you will come to see it.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Ok, good, so you are able to produce the same pixel layout as me, doesn't matter what you call it, the pixels are still arranged identically.
Time is a symbol that represents and objective truth.
Yes, VERY profound!!!!
And while I'm here, cate, I'm with cutback on this one, I agree and disagree.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
There's a whole lot of mental conditioning allowing that strengthening of bone to take place though. The brain controls it all. The mental fortitude required to train to that effect is what makes it possible. Envision bones of steel like strength and you get them...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I think you and I have different perception as to what our "minds" are. I believe we are all immersed in mind as one, and that we also personalize it by manifesting it individually in our brains and as our perspective of this whole. It sounds like you believe this manifestation in our brain is the cause. I see it as part of the whole complete picture of all the reams of variables contained in any one slice of reality.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
remember the twilight zone episode where the guy only existed in someone elses dream?
he could be a manifestation of someone's mind. the person you know as ____________ could be only the alter ego of what someone else wants to be or wishes they were. you wouldn't recognise __________ on the street because he/she only exists here in PJ land.
you and i are the few that confess flaws and faults and even defects here on the board. how do we know that some here are not as they portray themselves? so they don't exist in reality. they're actors playing a part.
i disagree... I believe time exists, whether Man exists or not. Time existed before Man existed and will exist long after Man become extinct.
Man exists within the boundaries of Time and Space.
Hail, Hail!!!
I've no condition of mental state other than knowledge to allow for my abilities.
I've stated before that thinking about muscle mass can cause mass to increase, this is however an internal mechanism of our bodies. Our brains send hormones PPAR-Gamma and PPAR-Delta to the muscle tissue to trigger the burning of stored adipose tissue, which by laws of energy conservation become muscle tissue in the absence of physical exertion.
However, this does not apply to thinking about someone else's muscle tissue. It's not been done, because it would be absurd, but experimenting with the effect of thoughts on a separate individuals muscle mass would prove ineffective. Countless experiments of "thoughts affecting reality" have been performed and all conclusively show that our thoughts have no effect on physical reality outside of our bodies. There have been non-scientists and fringe scientists who've made such claims, but empirical skepticism has weeded them out.
I have no idea what you said there.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
but you're afraid to confront it. you won't open your mind to the possability. i promise you it'll be an increadible experience. thinking is the best way to travel.
you don't know what you're missing. there's a whole other world out there.
then it should be easy for you to prove time.
i'll be here a while.
Doing LSD is an incredible experience too. Another one that I stay away from.
The "whole other world" is probably just in your mind.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You just admitted time.
A simple thought experiment "what if time did not exist" proves that it does.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I know that the brain correlates with mind. That's all that really matters. It's been objectively proven by Francis Crick and Christof Koch.
You can choose to believe it's like a soul, or something that objectively does not exist and enters the body at some time during life. But it's all speculation, it's like waving a knife around in the dark. I choose not to blindly believe in things. If you do, that is fine, but it's hardly a leg to stand on in a debate.
Main Entry: per·cep·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin perception-, perceptio act of perceiving, from percipere
1 a : a result of perceiving : OBSERVATION b : a mental image : CONCEPT
2 obsolete : CONSCIOUSNESS
3 a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation <color perception> b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience
4 a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition : APPRECIATION b : a capacity for comprehension
synonym see DISCERNMENT
- per·cep·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
yeah but there is a way to get another person to grow muscle outside your body. You tell them!
Hey when you said light has no shape, how can it not have shape when it can be distorted. I see time as product of vibration like a point on a guitar string.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")