Haggard admits ‘sexual immorality,’ apologizes

Cosmo

Bottom line... this guy is just one in a long line of fuckers that use the pulpit and lie about things... Jim and Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swagert, Robert Schuller, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Tony and Susan Alamo and all of those alter boy molesting priests. Because of the track record of these people... it leads me towards the belief tha Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are cut from the same cloth... but, they just have a better method of hiding their truths.
...
I'm saddened by the people who have fell for this stuff. I'm pretty certain that they retain their underlying faith in the Religion as a whole... but, as long as they keep filling the pockets and bank accounts of these mass media 'religious leaders'... well, that's their call to make. Maybe they are better people than me... I would cast a jaundiced eye at them and search for Jesus on my own.
Which, I already have chosen to do.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

I'm saddened by the people who have fell for this stuff. I'm pretty certain that they retain their underlying faith in the Religion as a whole... but, as long as they keep filling the pockets and bank accounts of these mass media 'religious leaders'... well, that's their call to make. Maybe they are better people than me... I would cast a jaundiced eye at them and search for Jesus on my own. Which, I already have chosen to do.

So why didn't you fall for it?

sweet adeline

is he related to merle haggard?

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

You're reaching there by a long stretch. There's a big difference between saying an act is sinful and actually telling people to hate or hurt others. Heck, by the church's standards we're ALL sinners, and our sins aren't worse than that of homosexuality, but would you say that the church preaches hatred against those who are jealous?

the church does not have actively repressive campaigns against jealousy like this guy launched against homosexuality.

you tell me what your definition of hatred would be and ill tell you how he fulfills it. i dont believe hitler ever said to the german people "we're going to round up all the jews and kill them." what he did do was convince anyone listening that the jews were evil and were responsible for the decay of german society and used it as an excuse to oppress them. granted, hitler went one further in rounding them up and killing them. this guy might have if he had the power, we don't know. the point is not the guy's personal actions or beliefs, the point is what views and beliefs he is trying to instill upon those who see him as a leader. while most germans did not want to kill jews on a mass scale, they did come to hate and mistrust them under the nazi regime. thus the analogy is applicable. this guy, by his rhetoric, is using the same tactics to condemn homosexuals that hitler used to stir up sentiments against the jews prior to world war 2 (long BEFORE the holocaust became reality). this does not mean they will all go out and kill gay people. but if your only barometer of hatred is physical violence, you have a very distorted worldview indeed. you do not have to say "hate these people" to encourage hatred of them. you only have to convince people that that group is different and disgusting and threatening. the hate will follow. this guy knew it and exploited it.

he convinced his congregation that queers are evil and different and that this "sexual immorality" is destroying our society (do you recall falwell's comments that america deserved 9/11 becos we accept gays? these guys are partners in this crusade). he then uses it as an excuse to oppress homosexuals, by denying them equal rights (wont even accept civil unions as alternative to marriage) and supporting things like sodomy laws. no, he never said "go out and kill homos." but he is encouraging that kind of belief and behavior.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

So why didn't you fall for it?

...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.

You're a man. Raised as one, I assume. Can you trust yourself? You yourself are man made.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

You're a man. Raised as one, I assume. Can you trust yourself? You yourself are man made.

...
The difference being... I'm living my life for me. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, how you're supposed to live yours. That should be up to you to decide.
Right?

PaperPlates

Cosmo wrote:

...
The difference being... I'm living my life for me. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, how you're supposed to live yours. That should be up to you to decide.
Right?

I live my life for me and my family. More for my family than for me, truth be told. Its tough to find balance. Most religions arent the type that shove shit down your throat. Most are there for guidance, and those who are LOOKING for that guidance can find it there. Not everyone seems to have all the answers, and if you do, as you seem to think, perhaps you could share. Ya know, float back down, cause you want to share, the keys to the locks of the chains you see everywhere.

Cosmo

PaperPlates wrote:

I live my life for me and my family. More for my family than for me, truth be told. Its tough to find balance. Most religions arent the type that shove shit down your throat. Most are there for guidance, and those who are LOOKING for that guidance can find it there. Not everyone seems to have all the answers, and if you do, as you seem to think, perhaps you could share. Ya know, float back down, cause you want to share, the keys to the locks of the chains you see everywhere.

...
I have never once stated that I know the answers... I only know that I don't know. The one thing I DO know is that no one else has the answers. People who tell me, in no uncertain terms, that they KNOW they are going to Heaven... or that they KNOW there even IS a Heaven... they are bullshitting me. I know they don't know... they BELIEVE they know and it becomes their truth... which, is fine by me, but, their truth does not apply to me.
The answers that Religion have given me don't fly, either. I view them as the institutionalized interpretations of set doctrines... depending upon which man (Church Founder) you wish to follow.
I decided a long time ago to skip past the filters of religion and try to understand God on His terms. Why are there so many religions for the same God? They all claim to be the right one to choose... does that negate the others?
I'll go out on my own... I don't expect, nor have I ever expected anyone else to take anything I beleive as their own. If you find solice in the religion of your birth... or the religion of your choice... more power to you. But, thanx.... no thanx for me. I do not believe in placing my faith in someone who believe they know the truth and would rather look for it myself. That is why I'm seeking the answers on my own. I know that I will probably never find what I'm looking for... but, at least I know I will not find it anywhere in Man's creation.

chopitdown

Cosmo wrote:

...
I do not believe in placing my faith in someone who believe they know the truth and would rather look for it myself. That is why I'm seeking the answers on my own. I know that I will probably never find what I'm looking for... but, at least I know I will not find it anywhere in Man's creation.

where do you look then? It seems you want to find God or want to find something yet if it can be traced back to man in any way then you can't accept it. That seems like a tough challenge to look but not to seek from man. I agree with an earlier entry in your post about not placing faith in man...you shouldn't place your faith in man; they will let you down. I think the haggard thing is a perfect example. Haggard was put on a pedastal by many and Haggard let them down in a huge way. If the people had faith in Haggard they are crushed...if they have faith in God, they recognize that what he did was terrible and that he needs to be held accountable, but they realize that God didn't let them down...haggard did. At some point though if you're looking for something, whatever that is will become apparent to you...but what happens when you want to learn more about it? At some point you will almost certainly have to seek guidance from someone (be it yourself or from others with whom you agree). And I agree that man has definitely perversed religion and has used religion for bad. But remember look at what the ideal of the religion or belief system is and remember that everyone who takes part in that belief system no matter how good they may seem still are human and are capable of failure, and will fail...others bigger than some.

know1

soulsinging wrote:

the church does not have actively repressive campaigns against jealousy like this guy launched against homosexuality.

you tell me what your definition of hatred would be and ill tell you how he fulfills it. i dont believe hitler ever said to the german people "we're going to round up all the jews and kill them." what he did do was convince anyone listening that the jews were evil and were responsible for the decay of german society and used it as an excuse to oppress them. granted, hitler went one further in rounding them up and killing them. this guy might have if he had the power, we don't know. the point is not the guy's personal actions or beliefs, the point is what views and beliefs he is trying to instill upon those who see him as a leader. while most germans did not want to kill jews on a mass scale, they did come to hate and mistrust them under the nazi regime. thus the analogy is applicable. this guy, by his rhetoric, is using the same tactics to condemn homosexuals that hitler used to stir up sentiments against the jews prior to world war 2 (long BEFORE the holocaust became reality). this does not mean they will all go out and kill gay people. but if your only barometer of hatred is physical violence, you have a very distorted worldview indeed. you do not have to say "hate these people" to encourage hatred of them. you only have to convince people that that group is different and disgusting and threatening. the hate will follow. this guy knew it and exploited it.

he convinced his congregation that queers are evil and different and that this "sexual immorality" is destroying our society (do you recall falwell's comments that america deserved 9/11 becos we accept gays? these guys are partners in this crusade). he then uses it as an excuse to oppress homosexuals, by denying them equal rights (wont even accept civil unions as alternative to marriage) and supporting things like sodomy laws. no, he never said "go out and kill homos." but he is encouraging that kind of belief and behavior.

Again, I don't see where you're getting this. Can you document that he convinced them that gay people are "evil"? I haven't studied what this guy said or did or preached, but I find it hard to believe that he was saying they were evil and advocating violence.

know1

Cosmo wrote:

...
Because I'm pretty good at spotting bullshit. And I understand that the books that religions (all religions) are based upon were not handed down from God... they were written by Men. And Men... and women... are often times, bullshitters. I'm not going to take thier word on faith.
I didn't fall for it because i question what they tell me... i don't trust Man... Man created religion... I don't trust religion.

So if you were able to distinguish, why do you feel sorry for the members of the congregation? They have the opportunity to distinguish just like you.

Earthgirl

yah know, it's funny, everyone gets all crazy about this stuff because it's a church guy. So what, he's a church guy, he has secret fetishes or what ever.. he's not perfect, he's just like you and me.. he's real, he admitted shit..that's the funny part... he came right out and said that yes, I had a massage from the guy and bought crack or crystal meth or whatever he bought.. probably so he could see what life was like on the other side of god. at least he didnt try to hide it or make excuses... and if I remember some of my sunday school classes.. God loves all and does not judge.
and NO I am not some church freak pushing the lord on you all.. organized religion is just strange to me.

Earthgirl

meme wrote:

"“The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life,” he said.

This is so sad. I rejoiced when he was caught, but now I feel nothing but pity. Repulsive and dark... The only thing that is repulsive and dark is the hatred he has for himself and others who engage in things to what most of us would not even object to.

"find the peace within your self..."

well said girlfriend ! put so much more eloquently then my jibberish crap.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Not surprised. I always thought he had one of those mouths. Jesus can't save them.

Cosmo

chopitdown wrote:

where do you look then? It seems you want to find God or want to find something yet if it can be traced back to man in any way then you can't accept it. That seems like a tough challenge to look but not to seek from man. I agree with an earlier entry in your post about not placing faith in man...you shouldn't place your faith in man; they will let you down. I think the haggard thing is a perfect example. Haggard was put on a pedastal by many and Haggard let them down in a huge way. If the people had faith in Haggard they are crushed...if they have faith in God, they recognize that what he did was terrible and that he needs to be held accountable, but they realize that God didn't let them down...haggard did. At some point though if you're looking for something, whatever that is will become apparent to you...but what happens when you want to learn more about it? At some point you will almost certainly have to seek guidance from someone (be it yourself or from others with whom you agree). And I agree that man has definitely perversed religion and has used religion for bad. But remember look at what the ideal of the religion or belief system is and remember that everyone who takes part in that belief system no matter how good they may seem still are human and are capable of failure, and will fail...others bigger than some.

...
I can find answers in God's Universe... on this planet. I mean, just look at the Sunset tonight. THAT is God. No man can ever come close to creating something that beautiful.
I refuse to believe that the one God that can create a Sunset or the Sierras or the Pacific... can possess the petty judgements and exclusions on His creations. I believe those are human traits, projected onto God by Man. God is there for us... not a crutch to lean on, not a name to kill in.
I look in the Bible... because that is one of the only places you can look. But, I know God didn't write the Bible... Man did. All I can do is use what is recorded on the Bible as someone else's interpretation of who God is. To me, the church is merely someone else's interpretation of the original author's interpretation. I'm just cutting out that layer or filter. I try to take the Bible's writings into the context of its time and form my own interpretations. I believe God loves us, He knows how screwed up we are... I don't fear His wrath because I'm not doing anything that needs to be forgiven. If I kill someone during the commission of a bank robbery... then, yeah... I'll be worried.
And as for these preachers... like it or not, they wield influence on others. They use the people's faith, to get what they (the preachers) want... usually in the form of contributions in the donation plate... i.e. Oral Roberts, who claimed that a 90 foot tall Jesus said if he didn't raise 10 million dollars by a certain date, God was going to kill him. God does not commit extortion... leastwise, MY God doesn't.
You want to follow your church... none of my business. If what you are looking for can be found there... great... I'm happy for you. But, as for me... I looked there and didn't find it. It wasn't there for me to find.
So, where do I look? I don't know... but, that doesn't stop me from looking.
...
And look... I'm NOT preaching. I'm just telling you where I am. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their religion... all I am saying is that your religion isn't necessarily for me.

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

So if you were able to distinguish, why do you feel sorry for the members of the congregation? They have the opportunity to distinguish just like you.

...
Because they were lied to by someone they believed in... I feel bad for the people who freely gave their faith and believed his lies. Is that a bad thing in your eyes?
I wasn't in that position (as part of his church)... because I have seen the same type of bullshit in church... by its leaders and its followers. Which is why I don't belong to a church or religion.
Maybe, i'm just better at spotting bullshit when I hear it... that ain't my fault.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

Again, I don't see where you're getting this. Can you document that he convinced them that gay people are "evil"? I haven't studied what this guy said or did or preached, but I find it hard to believe that he was saying they were evil and advocating violence.

apparently you weren't reading carefully. i specifically said he was not advocating violence, but that advocating violence is not a prerequisite for encouraging hatred. if you feel the only thing that shows hate is violence, then you have some issues. he does not have to say "go kill some fags" to be preaching hate.

i dont see what you're asking from me. again, what would you consider proof of hate? me, the fact that he attempts to make his disciples believe there is something wrong with gay people, that they are "other," that they are responsible for the decay and destruction of our society (all rhetoric hitler used to justify his discrimination against jews, gays, and gypsies) is enough to qualify his preaching as fostering and encouraging hatred of homosexuals.

chopitdown

Cosmo wrote:

...
I can find answers in God's Universe... on this planet. I mean, just look at the Sunset tonight. THAT is God. No man can ever come close to creating something that beautiful.
I refuse to believe that the one God that can create a Sunset or the Sierras or the Pacific... can possess the petty judgements and exclusions on His creations. I believe those are human traits, projected onto God by Man. God is there for us... not a crutch to lean on, not a name to kill in.
I look in the Bible... because that is one of the only places you can look. But, I know God didn't write the Bible... Man did. All I can do is use what is recorded on the Bible as someone else's interpretation of who God is. To me, the church is merely someone else's interpretation of the original author's interpretation. I'm just cutting out that layer or filter. I try to take the Bible's writings into the context of its time and form my own interpretations. I believe God loves us, He knows how screwed up we are... I don't fear His wrath because I'm not doing anything that needs to be forgiven. If I kill someone during the commission of a bank robbery... then, yeah... I'll be worried.
And as for these preachers... like it or not, they wield influence on others. They use the people's faith, to get what they (the preachers) want... usually in the form of contributions in the donation plate... i.e. Oral Roberts, who claimed that a 90 foot tall Jesus said if he didn't raise 10 million dollars by a certain date, God was going to kill him. God does not commit extortion... leastwise, MY God doesn't.
You want to follow your church... none of my business. If what you are looking for can be found there... great... I'm happy for you. But, as for me... I looked there and didn't find it. It wasn't there for me to find.
So, where do I look? I don't know... but, that doesn't stop me from looking.
...
And look... I'm NOT preaching. I'm just telling you where I am. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their religion... all I am saying is that your religion isn't necessarily for me.

Thank you for the reply...it didn't come across as preachy, i was genuinely interested in the response and your thinking. Also, I hate the phrase religion for the reasons you state above...it seems religion always gets a bad name and gets distorted to fit an agenda.

WindNoSail

robbie wrote:

give me a break. this man is incapable of telling the truth... he made a living out of lying to people... then he lied about everything in these accusations, now he is lying about this "repulsive and dark" nonsence. the only repulsive and dark thing about this lowlife is that he fought for an idealism of hate for financial gain. he stole from the bigots, and ignorant by pretending to be someone he was not. a christian. someone opposed to the gay lifestyle..... like every other mega church leader he is simply selling a bill of goods. if he found a large enough congregation to pay him millions and give him political power for hating women, or children, or blondes, or people over 6'2 or kittens, or the obese, or amputees, or mailmen, or people who wear a mustache, or people with freckles.... he would find that group REPULSIVE AND DARK.it just so happens there is a weathy population of people that were willing to pay him to furthur the cause for hatred against gays.... so he played that role... he would attempt to amend the constitution to include hate against his own 5 children if there was a big enough payday. get back to your whore mr. christian, and get the fuck away from my constitution.

You remind me of that guy in the Green Mile, spewing out your cancer. Dude, you are always looking to hammer, spit, and swear. What is that? Are you angry? I almost never get passed your first sentence, just so you know.

Oh, and how come everyone who is condeming this guy for his false life and actions then wants to condemn him for his for admitting it and coming clean?? Makes no Effin sense to me, the guy is down as you wanted.